922 réponses à ce sujet

[Gibb_Shepard]

jlb524 wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

I knew you would say that. "Everything" was an allegory for "LI's". Making everything the same just creates a lack of diversity. Companions should be unique in ideals, motivations, background, personality and yes, even sexual preference. To make all the companions the same in a single aspect is to do an injustice to companions in general.

It is far better to have a diverse range of sexual preferences, just the same as the diversity of other character aspects.. Hetero, Bi and gay is far better than all Bi. You see? Diversity.

Why don't they make gay only LIs?

Why don't they add in diverse range of preferences for things like race, morality, class, etc?

Do not answer this with questions. I even wrote in the post they should add gay only LIs, try reading. The game already allows diversity in race, morality, class etc. What is your point here?

@Blacklash: "If i had of known he'd send a man so capable, i may have asked him sooner". That sentence with a smirk and upward inflection is flirtation at it's best.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 31 décembre 2011 - 02:58 .

[Realmzmaster]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

But heres the thing....

How are the characters bisexual? the only one who is confirmed to be Isabela really, while Fenris, Merrill and Anders make no moves against you overtly unless if you reprise it or initiate it. Fenris and Merrill especially....

I'm not sure how this is relevant, but Fenris and Anders are the very first ones that flirt with you male/female Hawke.

Still, what exactly is your point?

Anders hits on you the first time, but he can be quickly shot down at the beginning and you can keep it strictly professional. Fenris does not hit on you and you can simply have him as a friend and/or keep it professional.

[jlb524]

My point is that Gaider has stated that they won't do gay-only LIs do to resource considerations...there's no consideration for 'better characterizations or more diversity' but resources. I think it a bit hypocritical to say 'look, no gay only LIs b/c of resources' but then to say 'well, we will have heterosexual only LIs for character integrity, etc.'

What about my question regarding preferences for things that aren't gender?

As far as the 'diversity' comment...I think the DA2 LIs were diverse enough as characters.

Modifié par jlb524, 31 décembre 2011 - 02:59 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

But heres the thing....

How are the characters bisexual? the only one who is confirmed to be Isabela really, while Fenris, Merrill and Anders make no moves against you overtly unless if you reprise it or initiate it. Fenris and Merrill especially....

I'm not sure how this is relevant, but Fenris and Anders are the very first ones that flirt with you male/female Hawke.

Still, what exactly is your point?

Anders hits on you the first time, but he can be quickly shot down at the beginning and you can keep it strictly professional. Fenris does not hit on you and you can simply have him as a friend and/or keep it professional.

....So? Just because he can be shot down doesn't mean he's not Bi. You're missing the point here. And Fernis does flirt very early on, see above.

@Jib: So because they won't allow gays, you want them to do away with Hetero's? You want a lack of diversity in the name of fairness? This is about fairness?

Diverse enough? Why not give them even more defining aspects? Or is it not fair?

And i still have no idea what you are going on about with the whole class, race thing.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 31 décembre 2011 - 03:04 .

[Blacklash93]

jlb524 wrote...

My point is that Gaider has stated that they won't do gay-only LIs due to resource considerations.

Risking delving into spoilers for an unreleased game, I'll point out that the ME team may be doing gay-only LI's for ME3 based off the leaked script.

That might not change how the DA team sees the resource-dilemma, but perhaps it could influence or challenge them to do such a thing.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 31 décembre 2011 - 03:04 .

[jlb524]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

@Jib: So because they won't allow gays, you want them to do away with Hetero's? You want a lack of diversity in the name of fairness? This is about fairness?

Diverse enough? Why not give them even more defining aspects? Or is it not fair?

And i still have no idea what you are going on about with the whole class, race thing.

Yes, it is about fairness for me.

If they won't do gay-only LIs why should they do straight only LIs when they can simply go the DA2 route and provide fair options for both those that play heterosexual and homosexual PCs?

Why do heterosexual PCs deserve not only more LIs but 'exclusive' LIs?

With the race/class/morality thing, I've stated before that BW LIs don't care about that and they will romance a PC in spite of whatever race/class/morality they may have...therefore, they all have the same preferences in those areas...which isn't very diverse if you ask me.

Blacklash93 wrote...
Risking delving into spoilers for an unreleased game, I'll point out that the ME team may be doing gay-only LI's for ME3 based off the leaked script.

That might not change how the DA team sees the resource-dilemma, but perhaps it could influence or challenge them to do such a thing.

I almost feel as if this is to make up for the lack of s/s options in the other 2 ME games.

It may affect the DA team but until they comment otherwise it is safe to assume that they won't be doing gay only LIs in the next game.  I'm fine with that as long as they open them all up to both genders again.

Modifié par jlb524, 31 décembre 2011 - 03:09 .

[Realmzmaster]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

But heres the thing....

How are the characters bisexual? the only one who is confirmed to be Isabela really, while Fenris, Merrill and Anders make no moves against you overtly unless if you reprise it or initiate it. Fenris and Merrill especially....

I'm not sure how this is relevant, but Fenris and Anders are the very first ones that flirt with you male/female Hawke.

Still, what exactly is your point?

Anders hits on you the first time, but he can be quickly shot down at the beginning and you can keep it strictly professional. Fenris does not hit on you and you can simply have him as a friend and/or keep it professional.

....So? Just because he can be shot down doesn't mean he's not Bi. You're missing the point here. And Fernis does flirt very early on, see above.

I did not miss the point. I am wondering why does it matter? Bioware has stated that because of resources and other considerations they made certain characters bi. Just like they made certain characters not LI.  It was decided for resource sake make certain characters bi and they can use the same love plot with a few changes.

I find it interesting that gamers ask for realism then get upset when Anders takes the initative to start a romance or keeps trying to pursue one (which he does not if you shoot him down).

[Auroras]

Yes, I liked the fact that all the companions were bi, and I would like to see it again in DA3.

[Gibb_Shepard]

"Because i can't have it, they can't have it."

Don't really like that motto.

I still stand by having hetero and bi LI's. I don't see the videogame medium as a socio-politcal movement for equality.

And i agree with your last statement. More diversity, definitely not unwanted. It adds more elements to that character. Having a Dalish elf whom will not romance a human because of a pre-conceievd prejudice sounds damn awesome. Such a strong characteristic that adss so many elements.

[jlb524]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...
"Because i can't have it, they can't have it."

Don't really like that motto.

But when they are always having it and you are never having it, it gets annoying....especially when it's not difficult to give you and them equal options.  If they had to break their backs and spend loads and loads of money to make things equal then I'd understand the reluctance...but it's not that difficult as DA2 proves....that makes it more frustrating.

Gibb_Shepard wrote... 
I still stand by having hetero and bi LI's. I don't see the videogame medium as a socio-politcal movement for equality.

Okay, but I definitely don't agree with you from my position.  When I have to deal with crap daily and rarely get to see my sexuality represented at all or in a positive light, it's nice to get to play a game and not be treated as a 'less worthy'.

[LinksOcarina]

I cant post the video because this is the non-spoiler section, but if you like i'll pm the first time you talk to Fenris where a romance can be initiated. The tone is more complimentary over flirtatious.

Anders he does hit on you, can't change that so I was wrong for including him. Although what he does do is borderline flirting...it can be seen as just a random compliment. Merrill doesn't even initiate a romance at all, and Sebastain...well...there you go, diversity.

ETA: My point, since I forgot to mention it, is that their sexuality is then dependant on the player, not the character. You  can choose to romance them if you want to as a male or female, and you have no reason to think of them as being a bisexual, heterosexual, homosexual, etc. In other words, it gives a semblence of realism to the gender neutrality that is in the games; the romances are, one again, less dependant on wether or not they are bisexual, but rather the sexuality of the player.

So technically, with the exception of Isabela, there are no bisexuals int he game, only hetero and homosexuals.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 31 décembre 2011 - 03:43 .

[CuriousArtemis]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

....So? Just because he can be shot down doesn't mean he's not Bi. You're missing the point here. And Fernis does flirt very early on, see above.

Neither Fernis nor Frenis (lol) flirts with Hawke; Hawke has to initiate the romance.  

Only Isabela and Anders flirt with Hawke initially ... regardless of Hawke's gender.

[jlb524]

Typically, when I go through a playthrough, the only LI that comes on to my Hawke without her initiating anything is Isabela.

[Nejeli]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

@Blacklash: "If i had of known he'd send a man so capable, i may have asked him sooner". That sentence with a smirk and upward inflection is flirtation at it's best.

I romance Fenris in almost every playthrough and that line never came across as flirty to me. I'd always read it that he was talking about Hawke's skill. He doesn't even respond to the first flirt you can give him. He just coughs and goes on with what he was saying.

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

"Because i can't have it, they can't have it."

Don't really like that motto.

I still stand by having hetero and bi LI's. I don't see the videogame medium as a socio-politcal movement for equality.

And
i agree with your last statement. More diversity, definitely not
unwanted. It adds more elements to that character. Having a Dalish elf
whom will not romance a human because of a pre-conceievd prejudice
sounds damn awesome. Such a strong characteristic that adss so many
elements.

Of course you stand by it, because it doesn't limit or exclude you in any way. This is the same argument people made back when BG2 came out and female gamers were complaining about their one LI to the male character's three. Not that I would want a SS exclusive love interest, like I said in another comment I'd prefer they stick with the DA2 format, but if they're going to reintroduce gender specific love interests it's only fair to even it out for everyone.

I'm not against more diversity, but I'd prefer they base it on something other than gender. Like other people have said, what's the point of restricting to gender when human/elf, human/dwarf, and dwarf/elf pairs, which should at least get a raised eyebrow, don't have any problems? Or when I can pair my good, lawful male character who helps everyone with Morrigan and not suffer so much as a hicchup as long I keep giving her gifts to offset the small disapproval?

[Gibb_Shepard]

His skill? Haha, alright.

Don't pull the "you're joe average therefore you have no opinion" on me. It's kind of old.

Restricting diversity just because diversity is lacking in other aspects is ****** poor logic. Anyway, i can't really add anything more to this thread.

[LinksOcarina]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

His skill? Haha, alright.

Don't pull the "you're joe average therefore you have no opinion" on me. It's kind of old.

Restricting diversity just because diversity is lacking in other aspects is ****** poor logic. Anyway, i can't really add anything more to this thread.

No witty retort on my answer...

i'm depressed now.

It really does come down to the perception of what is lacking here in the end anyway, and honestly I think people are getting too caught up in the semantics of what the diversity really is here.

[Sylvianus]

The logic about Gaider is flawled. Wathever what he said, people can still dream for something better than DAO, totally equal but basically the same. Why they couldn't ? Like I said, the system is there, and maybe they won't change at all. There is nothing we can do.

The op asked a question however, you have your answers, some people agree, other still disagree. They gave their reasons, their feelings. Bioware is saying DO want to choose the easiest way, that's the best way, okay, but people are free to disagree. they aren't forced to think like that. Easiest way, is not necessarily the best way. To each its opinion.

So bioware has decided not to make the necessary efforts in this area according to David Gaider ? We don't want to waste resource for that ? Too bad. But, Why should I approve in this case ? It does not make the system better to me and people are not forced to accept the politics of the worst imposed.

the day bioware says, we cut the customization , we don't want to waste anymore resources, but to satisfy people, you'll have two outfits, so be happy with the two poor outfits, you will never see me agree with that, you will never see me saying, oh look, that's the best thing. . Always I will fight for a better system and not between crap and another crap.

people do not take into account what Gaider said when they expressed their wishes. Because it has nothing to do with what they consider to be the best system.

After if Bioware does not want to use more resources, that is another matter.

[Gibb_Shepard]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

His skill? Haha, alright.

Don't pull the "you're joe average therefore you have no opinion" on me. It's kind of old.

Restricting diversity just because diversity is lacking in other aspects is ****** poor logic. Anyway, i can't really add anything more to this thread.

No witty retort on my answer...

i'm depressed now.

It really does come down to the perception of what is lacking here in the end anyway, and honestly I think people are getting too caught up in the semantics of what the diversity really is here.

EDIT: Forget it. This really doesn't have anything to do with the point of my previous involvement. You're going to have to go without a witty retort, i'm sorry.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 31 décembre 2011 - 04:19 .

[LinksOcarina]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

His skill? Haha, alright.

Don't pull the "you're joe average therefore you have no opinion" on me. It's kind of old.

Restricting diversity just because diversity is lacking in other aspects is ****** poor logic. Anyway, i can't really add anything more to this thread.

No witty retort on my answer...

i'm depressed now.

It really does come down to the perception of what is lacking here in the end anyway, and honestly I think people are getting too caught up in the semantics of what the diversity really is here.

That's like saying Meredith didn't have a sister just beause you don't hear about it (you only do on a templar playthrough. Just because their bisexuality isn't apparent on a certain playthrough doesn't mean they're not bisexual.

There, NOW i'm done.

Ok, you can go now if you want, sad too, cause here is my rebuttal.

 See the problem is because we all know they are romancable for both genders, we perceive them as all being bisexual, when the truth of the matter is, it is the player character  that, for all intents and purposes, is bi/gay/straight. Your example is not bad, but it holds no water because the love interest is a non-canonical event unless if we play the game to its end with one. Meredith will always have a sister, that is for sure information. But Hawke will not always have a lover.

Basically, this follows a blank slate mentality for Hawke as a character; you choose the person you want to go with, and they either reject you, like Aveline did (which was really well done, by the way) or they accept you and you have to work at it then with them. The love interests are tailor made that way to give more freedom to the player, so their sexuality is a moot point to begin with, since the players sexuality, Hawkes sexuality, takes precedence here. Basic psychology really. 

And this again ties back to what I said earlier, the semantics of what diversity is here. Some people have claimed that its how the love interests were handled to be the problem. That is because they are looking at the mechanics, not the substance, of the love interests. Since the players preference is more important than the characters, and since the love interests can only be canonical if you choose it to be, unlike other information in-game, then the substance of the relationship needs to shine through. This is why every character you can romance has a similar arc in their romances, but can take a different path based on your characters relationship with them. You can't predict wether or not Hawke will be male or female, but you can predict if Hawke will be a friend or rival. 

So basically, the complaints against the lack of diversity hold little water here, because in the game the player character dictates the initiation, tone, and advancement of the subplot. They are standardized to a degree, but it doesn't detract the fact that they are all different. 

Now the only thing I can't justify is things like Fenris falling for a blood mage or something like that, but at the very least, if that does happen, the chances of it going down on the rivalry path are high, so his fustration versus his desires for Hawke shine through down this path, which is why its an agressive romance if you follow it, versus a more intimate romance as a friendship hawke. It doesn't recitfy that problem, but it does follow a normal logic line if it happens, kind of like the bad girl seducing the guy who keeps questioning his beliefs, or something like that. Its a complex and borderline terrible relationship, but still a valid one in the end in that context.

So to summerize, the sexuality makes no difference, its the perception of the player characters desires, coupled with their actions, that give the romances weight. If nothing else, the fact that players can choose to bed with who they wanted to (in most cases) is a good thing, because it allows more choices versus a lack of them. And the "cookie cutter" romance bits hold no water, because they change based on the relationship the player has with the character, which was the focus to begin with.

ETA: Sorry, I saw your change at the top.

Anyway, this is my response.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 31 décembre 2011 - 04:33 .

[CuriousArtemis]

jlb524 wrote...

Typically, when I go through a playthrough, the only LI that comes on to my Hawke without her initiating anything is Isabela.

I think with Anders if you're REALLY REALLY nice to him, and very pro-mage, he will pop that question to Hawke, to where you have to either select one of two "heart" options or a broken heart (which results in 15 rivalry points I think?).

I've missed it a couple times and got it on others.  I think my sarcastic Hawke's miss it and my diplo's get it XD

[jlb524]

I agree 100% with your post, LinksOcarina.

motomotogirl wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Typically, when I go through a playthrough, the only LI that comes on to my Hawke without her initiating anything is Isabela.

I think with Anders if you're REALLY REALLY nice to him, and very pro-mage, he will pop that question to Hawke, to where you have to either select one of two "heart" options or a broken heart (which results in 15 rivalry points I think?).

I've missed it a couple times and got it on others.  I think my sarcastic Hawke's miss it and my diplo's get it XD

I typically play sarcastic so miss it.  Though, I might go diplo for that convo next time I play so I'll get some Anders flirting.

Modifié par jlb524, 31 décembre 2011 - 04:39 .

[Gibb_Shepard]

Now i'll feel bad if i don't reply to the wall of text.

Basically, i don't believe the sexuality or certain aspects of a character should be left up to the player. I vastly prefer explicit characteristics that make up a character, not vague generalities that the player can then craft to his or her own liking. But i do see where you're coming from. But i don't agree with it.

[Nejeli]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

His skill? Haha, alright.

Don't pull the "you're joe average therefore you have no opinion" on me. It's kind of old.

Restricting diversity just because diversity is lacking in other aspects is ****** poor logic. Anyway, i can't really add anything more to this thread.

Yes, Hawke's skill. I don't see what's so funny about that, because all through the game Hawke is aweing people with his ability, he did it in the prologue with Aveline and her husband, so I don't see how it's not out of the realm of possibility that the same happened with Fenris.

I was pulling nothing on you whatsoever. Nor did I say anywhere that your opinion didn't matter. But you do come across as entitled - it works for you so it should be left as is. You're okay with het and bi love interests, but don't see the need for gay or lesbian ones because, what, the status quo is fine? It's fine for you, but not for everyone. The addition of gay and lesbian love interests isn't going to take anything away from you, it will just give you characters you can't romance, unless you mod the game or create a character with the proper gender, which is something that LGBT players have to do all the time, but you'll still have all the other options (unlike gay and lesbian players, who often just have that one bi LI, or none at all.) Making everyone romanceable to either gender also doesn't take anything away from you, unless the mere presence of the flirty choice bothers you. And even if DA2 followed the DAO format and made Fenris and Merrill het love interests and Anders and Isabela bi love interests, Anders and Isabela would still be hitting on you, unless you think that should have been changed as well?

And I think suggesting one form of restriction over another form that makes more sense in context of the game world just to have some kind of restriction is worse logic. Even Gamlen's comment to a Fenris romanced male!Hawke has less to do with the genders involved and more to do with Fenris being an elf.

[NedPepper]

To answer the question before I pour through the thread.

I like it. It defintely gives more roleplaying options. I don't mind there being one or two characters that are simply gay or straight. Alistar for example. (Although, there were times I thought Alistair WAS gay on my first playthrough.) I also like that you can't romance some characters. Varric, Aveline, Wynne...Shale. Someone just not being into you PC like Aveline made for an interesting story arc, and Varric just wants to buy you drinks. He just doesn't see you that way. And that's fine.

The other thing I like about the DA series is that there really isn't a stigma attached to same sex relationships in this world of fiction and I find that to be really satisfying. I'm a big believer in Queer Theory and how gender and labels create defined boxes around people that are only relevant from a societal view. DA goes against that and makes the relationships not really about gender at all, but more about personal and intimate issues. It removes that gender box and creates, in my opinion, more interesting, personal relationships.

[Big I]

I didn't care that Anders, Fenris, Isabella, and Merrill were bi as characters. I did find it odd that ALL potential LIs (including Tallis I believe) were bi. Taken with the DA:O LIs we have two straight, zero gay, and 7 bi (if we count Tallis). If that sort of ratio holds true for the rest of the Dragon Age setting it paints an interesting picture of relationships and sexuality in Thedas.