922 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

...I'm sorry but if you can't deal with the possibility in another game that your virtual waifu/husbando is getting it on with someone of the same gender I really don't care. And yes I'm selfish. At least my selfishness doesn't take away an option from others because I can't deal with my virtual LI boning a same gendered PC in another game that I never have to even look at.

I can at least sympathize with the "I want coherent characterization and indept romance." people. But the "I don't wanna romance someone who's bi!" people can kick rocks.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:18 .

[jlb524]

@KylieDog

You are basically saying that,

1) People who want the 'all bi' thing are denying those that prefer gender restricted content. Hence, they are selfish because this is limiting options.

Limiting options for whom? It's definitely not limiting options for someone like me, but providing more.

2) People who want gender specific content, which denies those that prefer the ability to select whichever LI bests fits their character based on their own personal criteria other than gender-exclusivity  (looks, personality, etc.) are not being selfish...in fact, this is somehow providing more options?

More options for whom? Only more options for those that require gender-exclusive content.

Basically, you feel that those that want gender-specific content deserve to be considered more than those that prefer freedom to pick a romance partner from all the available LIs regardless of their preferred PC gender.

Modifié par jlb524, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:36 .

[LarryDavid]

KylieDog wrote...
No, it does NOT. I'm going do do this with numbers to make it very very clear.

Straight/Bi/Gay LIs:
Straight people who want a straight LI happy
Straight people who do not mind a Bi LI happy
Bi people happy
Gay people who do not mind a BI LI happy
Gay people who want a gay LI happy

5 groups happy

Bi LIs only:
Straight people who do not mind a Bi LI happy
Bi people happy
Gay people who do not mind a BI LI happy

3 groups happy.

Straight/Bi LIs:
Straight people who want a straight LI happy
Straight people who do not mind a Bi LI happy
Bi people happy
Gay people who do not mind a BI LI happy

4 groups happy


Do you see now? If Bioware do not want to include gay LIs then the next best option to please most people is a Straight/Bi mix. I will repeat that being Bi is not the same as being straight or gay, any notion that Bi is the same or 'just as good' is born of ignorance.

As not every group has the same size, the numbers should be tweaked. For simplicity I will assume the group of straight people who only want to date BI people to be negligable. Furthermore I will assume that BI PCs have no preferences regarding the sxuallity of the LIs (I have no idea if the difference with reality is significant so enlightenment is welcome).

I will assume 6 LIs (3M and 3F), which is the minimum number required for option 1 (see below), and the sxual preferences are equally distributed over the two genders. The sizes of the different groups are denoted as :

a : number of S that will only date S
b : number of S that will date S and BI
c : number of BI that will date S/BI/L/G
d : number of L and G that will date besides L and G, respectively, also BI
e : number of L and G that will date only L and G, respectively

Finally, the utility of each option is defined as the sum, over each member of each group, of all datable Lis. So we have

Option 1 (2S,2BI,1L,1G) has utility -> a + 2b +4 c +2d +e
Option 2 (6 BI) has utility -> 3b + 6c +3d
Option 3 (2S, 4 BI) has utility -> a + 3b + 5c + 2d
Option 4 (4S,2Bi) has utility -> 2a + 3b + 4c +d
Option 5 (6 S) has utility -> 3a + 3b +3c

When choosing between these options, one can maximize
- the total utility
- the spectrum of possible personalities

If maximizing utility is the goal, we only have to know if a>c+d. If this is the case ( I'm pretty sure it is in real life/ no idea how this reflects in RPGs) Option 5 is optimal, otherwise it is Option 2.

I, and I guess most of you, think the second criterion is the way to go and hence, option 1 should be the most popular. It is however important to notice that the utility of Option 1 is vastly inferior to the utility of Option 3 as b+c>e.

What bothers me is the following : most people reacting in this topic want Option 1, hence deem the diversity in personalities more important than maximizing utility. Using the same logic one should expect that, as Option 1 will never be implemented, people would switch to option 3 or 4 (with an pareto optimum determined by a>c+d). No, instead one demands Option 2, which is not optimal according to criterion 1 nor according to criterion 2. I also wonder why nobody demanded an Option 6 (1G, 4BI, 1L) as replacement for the popular Option 1.

Modifié par LarryDavid, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:58 .

[Nurot]

This is in response to the OP, since it became hard to keep up with the thread after 15 pages. I may also comment on a few things that I have read in other threads on this issue in both this forum and the ME3-forum.

I prefer it if every LI is bi. To me, the most important thing is that everyone get the same amount of content and choice. The reason that I like the Dragon Age games so much is because they are inclusive to players that normally aren’t catered to in the gaming world. As a female I am used to getting the short end of the stick when playing video games and I am glad to see that this is slowly changing. Bioware is on the frontline of this development and I really appreciate all their efforts in this matter. I don’t want gay or bisexual players to keep experience what I have experienced as a female gamer over the years. That is why I will continue to root for “everyone is bi”, although I understand that some people feel that this breaks their immersion. Breaking immersion is simply not a good enough reason for me.

Personally, I also like to have less restrictions in my romances (so I don’t support race restrictions and similar either). That allows me more freedom in my role playing. I can do the opposites attract romance, the angry romance and other versions of the angsty romance. Yeah, I love emo in my games, books and movies…

To those that claim that it is unrealistic for Hawke to have four bi companions I would like to say: not really. If you know statistics you will also know that if 1 in 10 people are bisexual (totally made up number, I do not know the real number), this doesn’t mean that only every tenth person you meet is bisexual. Subpopulations in a population are generally not evenly distributed. This is why a very large sample is needed (at least a thousand, preferably more) to get a correct statistical value. On top of that, your sample needs to be representative of the population you are studying, like the correct distribution of gender and age (Which Hawkes group is not.). This is why you cannot really say that four bisexuals in a group of six are unrealistic. Statistical values apply to large groups, not small samples like Hawkes companions. And it is reasonable to believe that certain types of people are drawn to Hawke (probably not cowards as an example). This was probably very boring to read and I probably convinced no one, but there it is.

I have seen a suggestion to let people choose between “gay, straight and bi” in the beginning of the game. This is just so wrong and I hope that Bioware doesn’t even consider it. It would be like saying that gay/bi is bad and that it is okay to say no to it. Sure, it would keep some people from complaining, but I think those people should get over their fear of being hit on by a person of their own sex. I think the Anders controversy brought up hidden issues to the surface and allowing Anders to make the first move on a friendly female and male Hawke was a bold move, in my opinion. Those kinds of discussions are healthy and they may not change everyone’s mind, but they sure help to make people more accepting in the long run. Many people say things like “I have nothing against gay/bisexuals, but ..”. Often, the sentence that follow the “but”, is a contradiction to the first part (ie ..as long as they don’t hit on me).

One more thing. Sexual orientation must be the least important part of a personality. The only time it is important is if you are interested in a person and want to know if that person could feel the same way about you. Otherwise, I could care less if my friends, family and other people that I know are gay, bi or straight.

Modifié par Nurot, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:58 .

[Pzykozis]

I'd prefer restricted, possibly by deed and race and various other things too.. this is something that is a much, much wider issue though, its the idea of having the companions being coherent and just in general more like quasi-people.. similarly to the fact that they dress themselves and have their own lives they should have their own preferences, perhaps said preferences wouldn't be hardcoded and somewhat malleable but atleast have a preference, being wholly subserviant to the PC's desires is kinda creepy.

But I'd like the world to be more reactive to the PC in general.

[tmp7704]

In Exile wrote...

You can dodge the romantic come ons with the troll face usually. Hawke has a quip and switches topics, and then that's tthat.

It's the one i ultimately went with, iirc. It didn't really make the whole situation feel any less distasteful and confined, though -- i didn't want to dodge, i didn't want to be an ass, and i didn't want to encourage Anders, and there was simply no option for that.

Modifié par tmp7704, 03 janvier 2012 - 10:13 .

[Ryzaki]

Well there's the first heartbreak option that has Hawke go "keep this professional". Frankly they should've switched that with the heartbreak option after Anders starts talking.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 janvier 2012 - 10:15 .

[tmp7704]

Nurot wrote...

One more thing. Sexual orientation must be the least important part of a personality. The only time it is important is if you are interested in a person and want to know if that person could feel the same way about you. Otherwise, I could care less if my friends, family and other people that I know are gay, bi or straight.

I'd say since the topic is about romances and "love interests" specifically, this is precisely that one time when it is important, and why it keeps popping up.

[Abispa]

tmp7704 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

You can dodge the romantic come ons with the troll face usually. Hawke has a quip and switches topics, and then that's tthat.

It's the one i ultimately went with, iirc. It didn't really make the whole situation feel any less distasteful and confined, though -- i didn't want to dodge, i didn't want to be an ass, and i didn't want to encourage Anders, and there was simply no option for that.

"I don't want you thinking about me in THAT way."

An awkward line, to be sure, but given that you are ONLY "hit on" after being incredibly nice/diplomatic about an abomination leading you and/or your apostate sister into an ambush where you are forced to kill a dozen Templars IN THE CHANTRY, I find Anders' assumption that Hawke MUST like him a lot to be one of the more realistic scenes in the game. And his attitude during the entire game, not just about sex, is "Of course you agree with me (about love/the Chantry/mages/Templars/kittens)? Don't you? DON'T YOU! WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU! YOU MUST AGREE WITH ME!"

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

Well there's the first heartbreak option that has Hawke go "keep this professional". Frankly they should've switched that with the heartbreak option after Anders starts talking.

I think i didn't use that because it's absurd in the context -- there's nothing profession related and so nothing to be "professional" about in a situation where a random refugee comes to former grey warden, now a doctor, to inquire about about maps of the deep roads. That comment would make sense if Hawke visited Anders for his prostate checkup, maybe.

[tmp7704]

Abispa wrote...

An awkward line, to be sure, but given that you are ONLY "hit on" after being incredibly nice/diplomatic about an abomination leading you and/or your apostate sister into an ambush where you are forced to kill a dozen Templars IN THE CHANTRY, I find Anders' assumption that Hawke MUST like him a lot to be one of the more realistic scenes in the game.

Yes, i definitely don't mind Anders making that presumption there and acting upon it, it makes sense and fits the character. I simply didn't like the limited reactions to it the game provided.

[KylieDog]

jlb524 wrote...

KylieDog wrote...
Now your are trying to make a strawman argument by making it about characters you like/dislike and not the games provided options.

Strawman argument is no good.  Bioware giving available options for different sexual preferences and Bioware making characters players want to romance are two different topics.

No, not really.  As I said, the player liked one of the female options (Morrigan) but couldn't pursue it and that is the issue.

How is this any different than not liking a character and not wanting to romance them b/c they aren't exclusive to your preferred gender?  Most can still like and still romance said character in spite of this.

It is impossible for Bioware to make a set of characters that everyone likes, using your reasoning everyone could be Bi but still you do not like everyone and you think this means no options for a Bi interested PC.  That is not true.

Big difference between having options and not liking options, having options for all preferences in the first place should be a priority.  That is the easy thing to do.

Ryzaki wrote...

...I'm sorry but if you can't deal with
the possibility in another game that your virtual waifu/husbando is
getting it on with someone of the same gender I really don't care. And
yes I'm selfish. At least my selfishness doesn't take away an option
from others because I can't deal with my virtual LI boning a same
gendered PC in another game that I never have to even look at.

I can
at least sympathize with the "I want coherent characterization and
indept romance." people. But the "I don't wanna romance someone who's
bi!" people can kick rocks.

Nice double standard, you seem to have a hate toward straight people who like straight LIs.  Leave it elsewhere, is as bad as gaybashing.

It is also stupid, having straight and Bi characters gives more options, not less as my grouping example shows.  You clearly still cannot understand that being a Bi LI is not the same as being straight or gay.

[Abispa]

Pzykozis wrote...

I'd prefer restricted, possibly by deed and race and various other things too.. this is something that is a much, much wider issue though, its the idea of having the companions being coherent and just in general more like quasi-people.. similarly to the fact that they dress themselves and have their own lives they should have their own preferences, perhaps said preferences wouldn't be hardcoded and somewhat malleable but atleast have a preference, being wholly subserviant to the PC's desires is kinda creepy.

But I'd like the world to be more reactive to the PC in general.

I wouldn't mind more "realistic" LIs in DA games, even with limitations based on gender, IF IF IF it weren't the only limitation. But when s/s critics (not say YOU in particular) say they thought that DA:O was "more realistic" because Morrigan could be romanced by a good-two shoes Warden who gamed the system with gifts or converted her with his magic sperm of goodness, but NEVER shows interest in a female Warden. Or Shepard's ability to make every woman he meets assume the position just by standing in the same room breathing.

But VA is EXPENSIVE, and Bioware is going to keep their core casts small (read their many complaints about having to work the entire ME2 cast into ME3 even though they may be dead). It's in their best interest to pay as few actors for major roles while at the same time catering to as much of the fan base as possible.

That's why I believe that most LIs in the future will probably be "bi" or "herosexual." For example, unless a player is going to obsess over another player having a gay relationship with Fenris or Merrill, there is no way that a Hawke of the same gender should ever know they're "bi."

[Ryzaki]

KylieDog wrote...
Nice double standard, you seem to have a hate toward straight people who like straight LIs.  Leave it elsewhere, is as bad as gaybashing.

It is also stupid, having straight and Bi characters gives more options, not less as my grouping example shows.  You clearly still cannot understand that being a Bi LI is not the same as being straight or gay.

Oh that's rich.

FYI: It's not a double standard. I'd feel the same way towards people who insisted on gay LIs while their straight counterparts got one lousy choice that wasn't even exclusive. It only counts as a double standards if I would be pro that (which I really wouldn't be. I say I would but if the devs ever did it I'd be pretty "wtf guys?". Its sucky all around). I'm only pro s/s only options in ME3 because there's about 3+ m/f exclusive options per gender already.

I don't hate people who like straight LIs. It certainly isn't on the level of gaybashing. I just don't care about their preferences if they refuse to be satisified with a m/f romance because their LI might *gasp shock and horror!* romance a s/s LI in another game and they never even have to see this. Sorry but I can't feel bad for you. The LI for all intents and purposes is a m/f exclusive option until you romance them with a s/s character. If that's not good enough well...meh. I'd take others actually being able to have a choice over your comfort that your waifu won't dare romance someone of the wrong gender in a different game.

It does give less options. Gay fans get less choices to pick. Since you didn't even include gay LIs and just straight and bi. Sorry but I'm not okay with m/f romancers being able to get 2 choices (at least) while s/s romancers get one.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 janvier 2012 - 10:55 .

[Abispa]

tmp7704 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

An awkward line, to be sure, but given that you are ONLY "hit on" after being incredibly nice/diplomatic about an abomination leading you and/or your apostate sister into an ambush where you are forced to kill a dozen Templars IN THE CHANTRY, I find Anders' assumption that Hawke MUST like him a lot to be one of the more realistic scenes in the game.

Yes, i definitely don't mind Anders making that presumption there and acting upon it, it makes sense and fits the character. I simply didn't like the limited reactions to it the game provided.

I sympathize. It's one of the reasons I'd like Bioware to try making some text-dialog rpgs based on their ME and DA franchises, maybe on XBox Live and the PS3 equivalent. They'd be cheaper to produce and would help make a case for or against the total VA approach to Bioware RPGs.

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Well there's the first heartbreak option that has Hawke go "keep this professional". Frankly they should've switched that with the heartbreak option after Anders starts talking.

I think i didn't use that because it's absurd in the context -- there's nothing profession related and so nothing to be "professional" about in a situation where a random refugee comes to former grey warden, now a doctor, to inquire about about maps of the deep roads. That comment would make sense if Hawke visited Anders for his prostate checkup, maybe.

Yeah they should've switched the rejections.

[JediMB]

KylieDog wrote...

It is also stupid, having straight and Bi characters gives more options, not less as my grouping example shows.  You clearly still cannot understand that being a Bi LI is not the same as being straight or gay.

The way I see it, caring about that your LI is bi in this context is like caring if your LI is a virgin.

It's all about ignoring the actual relationship and focusing on irrelevant outside details that shouldn't really concern you.

Modifié par JediMB, 03 janvier 2012 - 11:17 .

[KylieDog]

Ryzaki wrote...


It does give less options. Gay fans get less choices to pick. Since you didn't even include gay LIs and just straight and bi.

Bioware are the ones who will not add gay LIs, I already said twice complain to them about that, if they will not add gay LIs then a mix of straight and Bi LIs is the next best option to please as many groups as possible.  As was shown.

You seem to want to completely ignore straights who want straight LIs and gays who want gay LIs as existing to suit your argument and claim Bi gives more options, it doesn't.   It isn't just and issue of "their LI might *gasp shock and horror!* romance a s/s LI in another game" like you try and put it, because the character is always Bi, even if in your game they act upon opposite sex only.  Zevran is Bi whether he sleeps with a male or female Warden, he is isn't straight or gay for one playthrough.

Someone being gay in real life can easily kill any sexual interest in them from the opposite sex and limit them to a friend only, the same happens for Bi people, someone being Bi for many people is the same as them being gay and opposite sex as far as being a sexual partner is concerned.  You don't just get to pretend this large group of people does not exist, is as bad as pretending gays do not exist to those like that.  Many straight people only see other straight people as possible partners, the same goes for gay people, some only see other gay (not Bi) people as partners.  However since no gay LIs according to Bioware as far as DA3 is concerned only the straight group needs be accounted for.

Origins system was the way to go, though an increase in LI numbers would be welcomed.

[Ryzaki]

KylieDog wrote...
Bioware are the ones who will not add gay LIs, I already said twice complain to them about that, if they will not add gay LIs then a mix of straight and Bi LIs is the next best option to please as many groups as possible.  As was shown.

You seem to want to completely ignore straights who want straight LIs and gays who want gay LIs as existing to suit your argument and claim Bi gives more options, it doesn't.   It isn't just and issue of "their LI might *gasp shock and horror!* romance a s/s LI in another game" like you try and put it, because the character is always Bi, even if in your game they act upon opposite sex only.  Zevran is Bi whether he sleeps with a male or female Warden, he is isn't straight or gay for one playthrough.

Someone being gay in real life can easily kill any sexual interest in them from the opposite sex and limit them to a friend only, the same happens for Bi people, someone being Bi for many people is the same as them being gay and opposite sex as far as being a sexual partner is concerned.  You don't just get to pretend this large group of people does not exist, is as bad as pretending gays do not exist to those like that.  Many straight people only see other straight people as possible partners, the same goes for gay people, some only see other gay (not Bi) people as partners.  However since no gay LIs according to Bioware as far as DA3 is concerned only the straight group needs be accounted for.

Origins system was the way to go, though an increase in LI numbers would be welcomed.

Frankly I don't think the people who refuse to romance a bi LI with a opposite sex partner is at all large. I'd probably place it around the same as those who would use the s/s romance. (actually it's probably significantly less).

Completely ignore? Sure. It does give s/s romancers more option. How pray tell does it not? in DAO a s/s romancer had *one* option (per gender). In DA2 they have *two* they have more options. In DAO someone who refused to romance a bi option had one option in DA2 they have none. They could i suppose take solace in the fact that Fenris, or Merrill wouldn't romance anyone other than a same gendered Hawke but since they want to metagame and then blame the devs for their own lack of enjoyment well *shrugs*. You're right. I don't care. Those who want Fenris/Merrill to be s/s only don't even get that reprieve.

As for the last bit to be frank I don't think it's a sizable enough fanbase to cater too. You might but I don't.

I hated origins system and an increase in LI numbers is undersirable to me. 4 Lis to me is enough.  It seems our desires are directly in opposition. I hope the devs decide to go with my preferences.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 03 janvier 2012 - 11:38 .

[jlb524]

KylieDog wrote...
It is impossible for Bioware to make a set of characters that everyone likes, using your reasoning everyone could be Bi but still you do not like everyone and you think this means no options for a Bi interested PC.  That is not true.

But but...you're complaining about not liking characters because they're bisexual?


Well then...you're out of luck. 

KylieDog wrote... 
Big difference between having options and not liking options, having options for all preferences in the first place should be a priority.  That is the easy thing to do.

What about people who prefer the freedom to romance whomever in spite of gender?  Again, you think those that want exclusive LIs should be catered to first and foremost.

Also, they should make one gay only and one straight only LI each game for each gender...

Morrigan:  straight
Leliana: lesbian
Alistair:  gay
Zevran: straight

How is this?

Ryzaki wrote...
They could i suppose take solace in the fact that Fenris, or Merrill wouldn't romance anyone other than a same gendered Hawke but since they want to metagame and then blame the devs for their own lack of enjoyment well *shrugs*. You're right. I don't care. 

My opinion is that if you have serious issues with people doing things to or with your fave video game character that it actually lessens your enjoyment of that character in your eyes and causes you distress then maybe you shouldn't play these type of games or at least come on-line to discuss them.

Edit:  this applies to more than just sexuality ofc.

Modifié par jlb524, 03 janvier 2012 - 11:46 .

[LordMarrick]

Dear me this is quite the argument going on here but from what i have read jib524 is on the high ground. seriously dont hate that all LI are bi its a better choice than having restricted one's that you have to cheat or mod to get like in DAO i was really dissapinted that morrigan was strate only when truely should could have been very much bi the way she acted

[Blacklash93]

I respect the opinions of those who like straight-only LI's, though I have to question why that would be such a big deal.

Is it the feeling of exclusivity? Shouldn't the relationship they're in be what matters and not whatever potential relationships they could have had? I don't think any of us S/S crowd have ever taken issue with that on our side of the equation. Most of us realize we're not entitled to that priviledge as far as I know and I don't believe we mind sharing. I don't.

Is it insecurity? Being in a relationship with a bi person increases the chances of cheating due to more potential partners? The stereotype that bisexuals are promiscuous? That's a horrid stereotype and even if it were true Bioware would never have a LI leave you for someone else.

Or is it distaste or just plain disgust? "Don't wanna share where they've been..." and all that? I don't think I can reason with that, honestly.

I'm not trying to start a fire by saying these things, btw, and nor am I accusing anyone of thinking these things. I just want to understand peoples' reasons for their opinions.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 04 janvier 2012 - 12:35 .

[hawat333]

Open romances? There are no such thing as an open romance.
You either love someone or you just like her. In the former case it's a romance, in the latter, it's sex.
So in these games -as in life- I don't change partners like socks. At least for most of my characters. There is that one sneaky bastard...

The All Bisexual approach simply does not work for all the characters. Some are just meant to be straight. There are certain characteristic that come with sexual interest, and they don't fit.

[Blacklash93]

hawat333 wrote...

Open romances? There are no such thing as an open romance.
You either love someone or you just like her. In the former case it's a romance, in the latter, it's sex.
So in these games -as in life- I don't change partners like socks.

"Open" as in available for everyone. Not as in an open relationship.

The All Bisexual approach simply does not work for all the characters. Some are just meant to be straight.

That's for Bioware to decide. They can concieve characters however they like.

There are certain characteristic that come with sexual interest.

No.

[tmp7704]

Blacklash93 wrote...

Is it the feeling of exclusivity?
Is it insecurity?
Or is it distaste or just plain disgust?

I just want to understand peoples' reasons for their opinions.

Desire for variety. There's no question why people could prefer their companions to be more mixed bunch than just say, white dark-haired human males with "lawful good" view of the world. This simply extends to sexual orientation.

edit: to clarify, variety in the sense of wider range of resulting interactions, and exposition to more diverse views and experiences.

Modifié par tmp7704, 04 janvier 2012 - 01:24 .