922 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

jlb524 wrote...

They could...as long as all the 'gay and bi' romances aren't just with those type of characters.  People typically become more attached to party member characters, so doing the Mass Effect thing where all the gay/bi options are non-squad mates while all the squad mate options are heterosexual-only (minus Liara if she counts) doesn't seem fair at all.

How about if this was how they implemented an exclusively gay option, while the squad was left at the DA:O balance of 2 straight 2 bi?

[jlb524]

Wulfram wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

They could...as long as all the 'gay and bi' romances aren't just with those type of characters.  People typically become more attached to party member characters, so doing the Mass Effect thing where all the gay/bi options are non-squad mates while all the squad mate options are heterosexual-only (minus Liara if she counts) doesn't seem fair at all.

How about if this was how they implemented an exclusively gay option, while the squad was left at the DA:O balance of 2 straight 2 bi?

I still don't think that's fair.  Why not have the DA2 all bi method for party members and have two exclusively heterosexual non-party members for each gender?

I personally don't even need an exclusively gay option myself as I like the DA2 system.

[Wulfram]

I like the DA2 system too, I was just throwing the idea out there. Some people do seem to want an exclusively gay option, and from an efficient use of resources point of view I'm not sure if that's going to happen with a party member.  And clearly some people would like exclusively straight LIs.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 janvier 2012 - 09:42 .

[jlb524]

Wulfram wrote...
I like the DA2 system too, I was just throwing the idea out there. Some people do seem to want an exclusively gay option, and from an efficient use of resources point of view I'm not sure if that's going to happen with a party member.  And clearly some people would like exclusively straight LIs.

Right.   I think it would then be more efficient to have the non-party members the "exclusives" (both gay and straight) since they take up less resources anyway (and ultimately limiting a romance by any criteria would result in less players seeing it) and the party members the 'bisexuals' or open-romances.

[Abispa]

I am all for Bioware making the characters any persuasion they wish, but it is pretty obvious that their designation of certain characters as LI is an developer decision and NOT some "realistic" outgrowth of character development by the writers. If the DA writers come out and say, "Sorry, guys, but we want to keep Morrigan/Alistair/Sebastian straight," then I can't argue with that. Just as s/s critics can't act betrayed when the writers chose to use the "bi" option in DA2.

And, yes, I admit that there are probably s/s supporters who are going to write angry posts about being betrayed by the ME3 team if their favorite LIs are not available for s/s romance. I wouldn't mind the "all bi" option in ME3, since a character being "bi" is no where near the epic "retcon" that the Tali romance was, but happy Talimancers don't ruin MY game. However, I don't think it should be FORCED on the writing team if they don't want it.

EDIT: For clarity. Maybe. Not sure. Oh well.

Modifié par Abispa, 04 janvier 2012 - 10:20 .

[Kmead15]

Ryzaki wrote...

If we're gonna bother harping about character consistency in regards to what
gender they hop in bed with character consistency should also come into play
about the decisions the PC makes as well.

I agree. After some consideration, my opinion on this topic has pretty much
become "I'd prefer that the companion’s preference be taken into account,
but if Bioware isn’t going to try and implement it then they might as well ignore
it completely."

jlb524 wrote...

Kmead15 wrote...

I suppose I'd not mind this more than I minded DAO’s system, though I can see
the idea getting backlash from (A) people who don't like that bisexuals are no
longer being represented by Bioware

Well, homosexuals aren't represented either (as far as LIs not being gay-only)
in the current system.

Kmead15 wrote... 

and ( people who don't like being forced to romance a certain character (or
let their PC end up *gasp* single, oh horror of horrors).

Which will be an issue in any exclusive system unless they amp up the LI
numbers.



I really don't think they should go for more than 4 LIs per game, especially
with smaller parties (8 or so people).

Lack of representation is an issue they can’t really avoid with just four LIs,
especially not while trying to keep the number of partners each PC has access
to fair. You’re right that exclusive romances will limit player options, but I’ve
never really minded that.  As for the
number of LIs in the party, I wouldn't mind having a greater proportion if
those LIs were choosy. 100% of your party being willing to jump any PC at the
slightest sign of interest is definitely just plain ridiculous.

jlb524 wrote...

What would have been fun is if the Leliana romance shut off if you kept the
Anvil of the Void and the Morrigan romance shut off if you destroyed it.



I.E., being limited to one romance option because of a mandatory choice in
game...and it would make sense based on the characters involved.  Of
course, they'd never do anything like that!  

Well, technically, players couldn’t end the game with their
PC and Alistair in a romance if they didn’t go with the dark ritual. Also, if I
remember correctly, while the PC and Alistair could end things so that they
were still in love, the romance itself was still cut off if a non-hardened
Alistair was crowned and the PC didn’t end up as queen. It isn’t the same as
what you’re talking about since these are choices you could make that make the
romance end rather than ones that ensured it never began, but it’s similar.

Modifié par Kmead15, 04 janvier 2012 - 10:07 .

[bleetman]

I'm not entirely sure why a homosexual party member would somehow require a different degree of resources than a heterosexual one. Is it a 'in terms of how many people would go for it vs the cost of implementation' thing? Because since I'm not renting the romances separately with each playthrough, I'm a bit stumped as to why that would matter. Everyone pays the same one time fee for buying the game in the first place.

I also fully acknowledge that there's probably some complication I'm not getting due to being incredibly stupid.

[Ryzaki]

Kmead15 wrote...

I agree. After some consideration, my opinion on this topic has pretty much become "I'd prefer that the companion’s preference be taken into account, but if Bioware isn’t going to try and implement it then they might as well ignore it completely."

Yeah that's how I pretty much feel at this point. It would not have been hard for BW to have the LIs in DAO auto dump the PC for certain decisions. They simply chose not to.

jlb524 wrote...
Right.   I think it would then be more
efficient to have the non-party members the "exclusives" (both gay and
straight) since they take up less resources anyway (and ultimately
limiting a romance by any criteria would result in less players seeing
it) and the party members the 'bisexuals' or open-romances.

This would be fine as far as I'm concerned.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 janvier 2012 - 10:20 .

[Wulfram]

bleetman wrote...

I'm not entirely sure why a homosexual party member would somehow require a different degree of resources than a heterosexual one. Is it a 'in terms of how many people would go for it vs the cost of implementation' thing? Because since I'm not renting the romances separately with each playthrough, I'm a bit stumped as to why that would matter. Everyone pays the same one time fee for buying the game in the first place.

If 5 people would buy the game because it contains a hot dude who'll sleep with their female PC, and only 1 will buy the game because it contains a hot dude who'll sleep with their male PC, then from a business point of view it's hard to justify spending it on the gay guy

Of course it's not that simple, not many people only buy games for LIs though it surely plays a part in some peoples decision.  And probably if you've already got 2 straight options in there, then perhaps you might not win many people with another one, while offering a gay option might win new customers.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 janvier 2012 - 10:22 .

[Kmead15]

Ryzaki wrote...


It would not have been hard for BW to
have the LIs in DAO auto dump the PC for certain decisions. They simply
chose not to.

I need to check the toolset again, I could swear there were some things that would make the companions dump you. Taunting Alistair about not wanting to have sex comes to mind, but I may be misremembering what was just a large approval drop.

Wulfram wrote...

If 5 people would buy the game because it contains a hot dude who'll sleep with their female PC, and only 1 will buy the game because it contains a hot dude who'll sleep with their male PC, then from a business point of view it's hard to justify spending it on the gay guy

Of course it's not that simple, not many people only buy games for LIs though it surely plays a part in some peoples decision.  And probably if you've already got 2 straight options in there, then perhaps you might not win many people with another one, while offering a gay option might win new customers.

Yeah, like in your example above if you already added the hot dude that slept with female PCs, you'd be increasing your sales by 120% by including the hot dude who'll sleep with male PCs. That gain would actually be pretty hard not to justify. You're right about not everyone buying the games for the LIs, though. Whether or not all the characters are bi or a mix of sexualities isn't going make me ditch Dragon Age completely, especially if they improve other aspects. Romances are something I'd like to see improved, but it's not at the top of my list.

[Ski Mask Wei]

Nope. I don't want it back. I want authentic characters, not lustbots designed to fit each player's preferences. And if you honestly care about character and story/plot integrity you don't want it back.

[Kmead15]

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

Nope. I don't want it back. I want authentic characters, not lustbots designed to fit each player's preferences. And if you honestly care about character and story/plot integrity you don't want it back.

It's possible to care about it, but care more about other conflicting ideals.

[maxernst]

Wulfram wrote...

bleetman wrote...

I'm not entirely sure why a homosexual party member would somehow require a different degree of resources than a heterosexual one. Is it a 'in terms of how many people would go for it vs the cost of implementation' thing? Because since I'm not renting the romances separately with each playthrough, I'm a bit stumped as to why that would matter. Everyone pays the same one time fee for buying the game in the first place.

If 5 people would buy the game because it contains a hot dude who'll sleep with their female PC, and only 1 will buy the game because it contains a hot dude who'll sleep with their male PC, then from a business point of view it's hard to justify spending it on the gay guy

Of course it's not that simple, not many people only buy games for LIs though it surely plays a part in some peoples decision.  And probably if you've already got 2 straight options in there, then perhaps you might not win many people with another one, while offering a gay option might win new customers.

Also, you have to keep in mind that it's a competitive marketplace.  Games featuring straight romances are far more numerous, so that's much less of a selling point.  Gay relationships in games are less commonplace, so they're more likely to factor into buying decisions.  Plus, at least when DA:O was released, it was still controversial enough that it brought the game free publicity.  I think the fact that Bioware has chosen to expand their same-sex portrayals in both DA2 and ME3 after testing the waters with DA:O strongly implies that they believe  it will translate into more sales.  Not that that means they're necessarily right, of course.

[Wulfram]

If you're playing DAO the first time through, unspoiled, the lost approval from doing something the NPC strongly disapproves of could actually be quite limiting for your romantic prospects.

It's only once you learn who wants what gift, and indeed where all the gifts are that you can make almost everyone forgive you for everything. And knowing where you might lose a bunch of approval and leaving the character at camp helps too.

(My first game, I showered Leliana with most of the gifts, and since I missed both of his plot gifts Zevran ended up turning on me. That was a lot of fun)

[Thiefy]

I would have actually prefered if there were just strictly homosexual romances included instead of "everyone is just bi." Yes, I know all about the resources, and blah blah blah but the OP is asking for opinions so that it what I am giving.

If I'm not mistaken, I think there was a post with Mr. Gaider saying that when he wrote Ali and Morri, he has a specific type of person he wanted to write, and they so happen to be straight. When he wrote Zev, he so happen to be Bi, and when he wrote his book, two of the Wardens so happen to be gay. That's it, and I rather like that approach, it actually seems more real to me rather just trying to make "one size fits all" type of romance and character. When you have an idea like that and try to build the character(s) to it, rather than writing the character out first and seeing how they would react to a situation, it just looks like you are trying to put the cart before the horse.

That and it would be nice if there was a strictly homosexual LI because I don't think it's actually been done before. Or at least, not M/M ones. There's probably a F/F one somewhere which is more than likely just fanservice.

[maxernst]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

That and it would be nice if there was a strictly homosexual LI because I don't think it's actually been done before. Or at least, not M/M ones. There's probably a F/F one somewhere which is more than likely just fanservice.

Isn't it possible to romance Arcade Gannon in Fallout: New Vegas?  He's certainly a gay character.

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...
I'm not entirely sure why a homosexual party member would somehow require a different degree of resources than a heterosexual one. Is it a 'in terms of how many people would go for it vs the cost of implementation' thing? Because since I'm not renting the romances separately with each playthrough, I'm a bit stumped as to why that would matter. Everyone pays the same one time fee for buying the game in the first place.

They don't.  But you're right that it's the idea that more people play through a heterosexual romance subplot which apparently justifies putting in more content for heterosexuals.

Though, not all heterosexual romances are necessarily popular (see Jacob in ME2 for an obvious example).

Also, even though more people romance a female LI over a male LI period, they still felt the need to start giving equal amounts of male and female LIs for people to choose from which doesn't make sense from the 'resource' perspective (going back to the BG2 way of 3 females and 1 male would be best if you want to provide options that more people would likely play) so *shrug*

Edit:  the male/female LI equality thing is even more resource intensive than making LI's all 'bi' as it requires the creation of whole new male romances.

[Thiefy]

maxernst wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

That and it would be nice if there was a strictly homosexual LI because I don't think it's actually been done before. Or at least, not M/M ones. There's probably a F/F one somewhere which is more than likely just fanservice.

Isn't it possible to romance Arcade Gannon in Fallout: New Vegas?  He's certainly a gay character.

i haven't played that game, so i do not know.

[jlb524]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
If I'm not mistaken, I think there was a post with Mr. Gaider saying that when he wrote Ali and Morri, he has a specific type of person he wanted to write, and they so happen to be straight. When he wrote Zev, he so happen to be Bi, and when he wrote his book, two of the Wardens so happen to be gay. That's it, and I rather like that approach, it actually seems more real to me rather just trying to make "one size fits all" type of romance and character. When you have an idea like that and try to build the character(s) to it, rather than writing the character out first and seeing how they would react to a situation, it just looks like you are trying to put the cart before the horse.

I don't see any of these romances as 'one size fits all' since the LIs tend to be very different characters.

Not everyone will like a given LI romance regardless of sexuality (they might not like any of them).

'One size fits all' entails (to me) that I or anyone else can go through any romance and like it just as much as the others and that's simply false as it depends on the character involved (at least, to me...I guess it would be different if sexuality was your only criteria of judgement).

Modifié par jlb524, 05 janvier 2012 - 01:35 .

[Darth Death]

I don't know. Romance feels tasteless to me, so most times I don't even bother.

[Abispa]

Darth Death wrote...

I don't know. Romance feels tasteless to me, so most times I don't even bother.

Another reason I favor a smaller number of "hero-sexual" LI in Bioware games. Those who DON'T do the romances shouldn't be losing out on party interaction. Until DA2, unless you romanced a character, they pretty much cut you off of any meaningful interaction fairly early in the game (LELIANA: I know that look! You're up to something, aren't you? WARDEN: Nothing. Let's move on.). And ME2 was absolutely awful on the amount of content you miss out on if you don't romance the character (Calibrations, anyone?).

Not only does DA2 allow you to develop a close non-sexual friendship/rivalry with the cast, but it had a equal number of cast members who weren't LI and you could still become bros and sistas with.

By giving the player more romance options while keeping the number of LIs low, it allows Bioware more opportunity to develop characters who aren't just hanging around waiting for the hero to seduce them.

[Ryzaki]

Kmead15 wrote...
I need to check the toolset again, I could swear there were some things that would make the companions dump you. Taunting Alistair about not wanting to have sex comes to mind, but I may be misremembering what was just a large approval drop.

There is. Which makes them not auto dumping the Warden for other actions boggles me. So apparently taunting Alistair a little is a relationship killer while enslaving and murdering innocents isn't? Wow. Talk about prorities Alistair.

[Kmead15]

Ryzaki wrote...

There is. Which makes them not auto dumping the Warden for other actions boggles me. So apparently taunting Alistair a little is a relationship killer while enslaving and murdering innocents isn't? Wow. Talk about prorities Alistair.

Yeah, no kidding. He will eventually dump you if you kill enough innocents in front of him (and fail to make up for it by giving him kickass statues) that his approval drops to hostile. I've not searched all his lines yet, but another place I found where he'll dump you is if you tell him "You'll do it because I tell you to," when asking him to marry Anora. Now I sort of want to compare him against the other three LIs, see he was any more likely to drop you.

[NedPepper]

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

Nope. I don't want it back. I want authentic characters, not lustbots designed to fit each player's preferences. And if you honestly care about character and story/plot integrity you don't want it back.

I had no issues with the story or the plot integrity by having an option to have same sex romances.  Gender doesn't even seem to play into the romance, nor orientation.  The romances, despite gender, are complex and completely character based.  I couldn't disagree with you more.

[Thiefy]

jlb524 wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
If I'm not mistaken, I think there was a post with Mr. Gaider saying that when he wrote Ali and Morri, he has a specific type of person he wanted to write, and they so happen to be straight. When he wrote Zev, he so happen to be Bi, and when he wrote his book, two of the Wardens so happen to be gay. That's it, and I rather like that approach, it actually seems more real to me rather just trying to make "one size fits all" type of romance and character. When you have an idea like that and try to build the character(s) to it, rather than writing the character out first and seeing how they would react to a situation, it just looks like you are trying to put the cart before the horse.

I don't see any of these romances as 'one size fits all' since the LIs tend to be very different characters.

Not everyone will like a given LI romance regardless of sexuality (they might not like any of them).

'One size fits all' entails (to me) that I or anyone else can go through any romance and like it just as much as the others and that's simply false as it depends on the character involved (at least, to me...I guess it would be different if sexuality was your only criteria of judgement).

well that is clearly not how i meant it. no matter if you play as a male or female, every romance partner treats you 100% the same way. maybe that's nice for some people, and maybe that's even plausible in rare circumstances, but for ALL of them to do that is a little more than odd.

in college i had a bisexual roomate (female) and a friend who was bi-curious plus transgender. both of them flirted with me in the past and both of them flirt with the other gender as well, so i'm just using what i have both observed and experienced. how they both acted towards men and women was different so it's unrealistic to me to see all four bi LIs treat a male hawke and female hawke *exactly* the same - and i don't mean that in a sexist way. i know they did it for the sake of resources but i think it's something that can be improved upon.

actually i want to expand on this but i cannot right now because it's late and i must sleep. will elaborate a little more on this later. sorry about that ;;