922 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Kmead15 wrote...
Yeah, no kidding. He will eventually dump you if you kill enough innocents in front of him (and fail to make up for it by giving him kickass statues) that his approval drops to hostile. I've not searched all his lines yet, but another place I found where he'll dump you is if you tell him "You'll do it because I tell you to," when asking him to marry Anora. Now I sort of want to compare him against the other three LIs, see he was any more likely to drop you.

Eventually being the keyword.  

And yeah that auto dump kind of boggles me. Ah well.

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

The problem with the 'variety' argument as I see it is the assumption that it's not possible to have it without varying sexual orientations.

You see it wrong then, by making that assumption of your own -- it's not that variety is impossible without it. But rather, it's desirable that this area of personality was included in it.

"i'd prefer my dinner to have some meat" vs "it's not dinner if there's no meat". You're objecting to the latter which is your own misinterpretation of the argument, rather than actual argument made. I.e. a straw man.

Hetero and bi LIs?  Poof!  Variety!

Bi LIs? No variety.

Quite. Note how your first sentence requires "and" which signifies there's at least two different elements involved. Your second sentence works perfectly without that "and" though, because there's no actual variety there as far as sexual orientation is concerned. QED.

edit: to put it differently -- if all characters share single orientation then the part of their view on the player's character that's based on this aspect is going to be the same. There can be some differences down the road when other aspects of their individual personalities/tastes kick in (if that's implemented) but even then there will always be a common core.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:49 .

[jlb524]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
well that is clearly not how i meant it. no matter if you play as a male or female, every romance partner treats you 100% the same way. maybe that's nice for some people, and maybe that's even plausible in rare circumstances, but for ALL of them to do that is a little more than odd.

They aren't very reactive to the PC in general.  

Thief-of-Hearts wrote... 
in college i had a bisexual roomate (female) and a friend who was bi-curious plus transgender. both of them flirted with me in the past and both of them flirt with the other gender as well, so i'm just using what i have both observed and experienced. how they both acted towards men and women was different so it's unrealistic to me to see all four bi LIs treat a male hawke and female hawke *exactly* the same - and i don't mean that in a sexist way. i know they did it for the sake of resources but i think it's something that can be improved upon.

There are some dialog differences though so it's not exactly the same.  I wouldn't expect them to make entirely unique paths based on gender.

Yeah, people in real life do react differently to people depending on gender and other factors but these games typically don't reflect any of that very well.

tmp7704 wrote...
Quite. Note how your first sentence requires "and" which signifies there's at least two different elements involved. Your second sentence works perfectly without that "and" though, because there's no actual variety there as far as sexual orientation is concerned. QED.

edit: to put it differently -- if all characters share single orientation then the part of their view on the player's character that's based on this aspect is going to be the same. There can be some differences down the road when other aspects of their individual personalities/tastes kick in (if that's implemented) but even then there will always be a common core.

I don't understand how these differences in that aspect of 'personality' (though I don't see it as such) ever manifest in the game in a substantial way and it's seems that it only affects people's perception of the character which is why I don't think it's worthwhile to add in these 'limits' for the sake of diversity or whatever....it has no affect on the romances themselves.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:57 .

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

I don't understand how these differences in that aspect of 'personality' (though I don't see it as such) ever manifest in the game in a substantial way (..)

Depending on the character's sexual orientation and your PC's gender the character is either going to perceive your PC as initially eligible for romance or not. This can significantly alter character's behaviour towards your PC -- Morrigan would be a simple and pretty obvious example here, as, based on these factors her interactions with you will either involve flirt and other ways to establish romantic relationship, or not.

[syllogi]

tmp7704 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't understand how these differences in that aspect of 'personality' (though I don't see it as such) ever manifest in the game in a substantial way (..)

Depending on the character's sexual orientation and your PC's gender the character is either going to perceive your PC as initially eligible for romance or not. This can significantly alter character's behaviour towards your PC -- Morrigan would be a simple and pretty obvious example here, as, based on these factors her interactions with you will either involve flirt and other ways to establish romantic relationship, or not.

The problem with this in regards to creating solely homosexual LIs is that the people who are asking for this seem to expect all male s/s characters to express their "personality" by being caricatures of Paul Lynde or Charles Nelson Reilly.  I'm not sure how else they think homosexuality would affect a character's personality.

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I don't understand how these differences in that aspect of 'personality' (though I don't see it as such) ever manifest in the game in a substantial way (..)

Depending on the character's sexual orientation and your PC's gender the character is either going to perceive your PC as initially eligible for romance or not. This can significantly alter character's behaviour towards your PC -- Morrigan would be a simple and pretty obvious example here, as, based on these factors her interactions with you will either involve flirt and other ways to establish romantic relationship, or not.

I'm not sure how that is personality, though.

If I don't eat broccoli because I think it's gross is that an aspect of my personality?

Morrigan being outgoing in pursuit of someone she's interested in is what I'd say an aspect of personality.

Now, the specific types of preferences she has for potential mates (including gender and any other characteristics)?  I think that's a different thing...at least, I don't hear people mentioning preferences as a type of personality aspect.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:30 .

[In Exile]

jlb524 wrote...

Now, the specific types of preferences she has for potential mates (including gender and any other characteristics)?  I think that's a different thing...at least, I don't hear people mentioning preferences as a type of personality aspect.

To interject with empiricism, your prefence for traits in a partner (not talking about orientation, just qualities) is very much dependent on personality. There's a long version here, but the short version is that attraction is very strongly related to similarity, and the traits that similarity is measured against are personality traits. The actual theory is more involved, but the gist is basically this:

"Like attracts like."

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Now, the specific types of preferences she has for potential mates (including gender and any other characteristics)?  I think that's a different thing...at least, I don't hear people mentioning preferences as a type of personality aspect.

To interject with empiricism, your prefence for traits in a partner (not talking about orientation, just qualities) is very much dependent on personality. There's a long version here, but the short version is that attraction is very strongly related to similarity, and the traits that similarity is measured against are personality traits. The actual theory is more involved, but the gist is basically this:

"Like attracts like."

So, that includes things such as "woman X is especially attracted to taller men"?

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Now, the specific types of preferences she has for potential mates (including gender and any other characteristics)?  I think that's a different thing...at least, I don't hear people mentioning preferences as a type of personality aspect.

To interject with empiricism, your prefence for traits in a partner (not talking about orientation, just qualities) is very much dependent on personality. There's a long version here, but the short version is that attraction is very strongly related to similarity, and the traits that similarity is measured against are personality traits. The actual theory is more involved, but the gist is basically this:

"Like attracts like."

So Morrigan should more aggressively pursue a male PC who is like her in survival of the fittest vs my saving everyone and everything nice guy? 

[In Exile]

Ryzaki wrote..
So Morrigan should more aggressively pursue a male PC who is like her in survival of the fittest vs my saving everyone and everything nice guy?

That's not really a personality trait. And it's not aggressive pursuit that's at issue. That would be a different personality trait.

The idea is more that Morrigain would be more attracted to a PC who aligns with her world view. And it's not as if DA:O doesn't work on this model anyway - approval basically just measures similarity, and approval is tied to romance. Approval is just b0rked because it's kind of the gift system.

[Ryzaki]

In Exile wrote...
That's not really a personality trait. And it's not aggressive pursuit that's at issue. That would be a different personality trait.

The idea is more that Morrigain would be more attracted to a PC who aligns with her world view. And it's not as if DA:O doesn't work on this model anyway - approval basically just measures similarity, and approval is tied to romance. Approval is just b0rked because it's kind of the gift system.

Okay.

That and the whole "say whatever they want to hear and their approval skyrockets no matter what you actually do." meter.

[In Exile]

jlb524 wrote...
So, that includes things such as "woman X is especially attracted to taller men"?

That's clearly a question about physical attractiveness, which is another variable entirely. We're talking about personality.

But to get technical, finding attractive, being attracted to, and staying attracted to, are all different things.

At any rate, physical attract seems to be orthogonal to personality, and is more universal and fixed. That's not to say it is universal and fixed - just that you can demarcate it from personality.

Edit:

And there is very controversial research that's come out recently that suggest that attraction (and sexuality) are very fluid in women and distinct from how it operates in men, but again, this is very controversial research that hasn't been anywhere near well substantiated enough to give weight to as a fact, but there is a suggestion out there that for women in fact even physical traits (and gender) fall under the same umbrella as personality, and in fact, are subsumed by it.

Modifié par In Exile, 05 janvier 2012 - 06:16 .

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...
That's clearly a question about physical attractiveness, which is another variable entirely. We're talking about personality.

But to get technical, finding attractive, being attracted to, and staying attracted to, are all different things.

At any rate, physical attract seems to be orthogonal to personality, and is more universal and fixed. That's not to say it is universal and fixed - just that you can demarcate it from personality.

Isn't the type of gender that you are attracted to an element of physical attractiveness?

I don't disagree that personality is a factor in choosing a mate but I don't see how gender preference is an aspect of personality much like prefering taller mates.

In Exile wrote... 
Edit:

And there is very controversial research that's come out recently that suggest that attraction (and sexuality) are very fluid in women and distinct from how it operates in men, but again, this is very controversial research that hasn't been anywhere near well substantiated enough to give weight to as a fact, but there is a suggestion out there that for women in fact even physical traits (and gender) fall under the same umbrella as personality, and in fact, are subsumed by it.

I've heard this suggestion a few times before though I'm not familiar with the research.

[Ski Mask Wei]

nedpepper wrote...

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

Nope. I don't want it back. I want authentic characters, not lustbots designed to fit each player's preferences. And if you honestly care about character and story/plot integrity you don't want it back.

I had no issues with the story or the plot integrity by having an option to have same sex romances.  Gender doesn't even seem to play into the romance, nor orientation.  The romances, despite gender, are complex and completely character based.  I couldn't disagree with you more.

I was mostly referring to future Bioware games and how I don't want it back but if you liked it I guess it's cool.  Do you want every party member in a Bioware game to be bisexual from now on?  No problem?  What if I want an option for Isabella not to be a slattern?  She was perfect to me aside from that little personality quirk.  Maybe if she was blonde too?  Can I get that changed too Bioware?  You know what?  F#%* that...I want Flemeth instead.  Mr. Laidlaw I need a Flemeth romance in DA3.  I need it.

Do you still think it's okay?  Do you honestly see nothing wrong with the above?   Excluding grammer and spelling of course...  

[In Exile]

jlb524 wrote...
Isn't the type of gender that you are attracted to an element of physical attractiveness?

No one has classifed orientation as a subset of anything. It's still unclear what the mechanism for it is, so it doesn't make sense to subsume it as a category. There's just not enough data to say whether it's primary, secondary, tertiary or just a socially constructed category.

I don't disagree that personality is a factor in choosing a mate but I don't see how gender preference is an aspect of personality much like prefering taller mates.

You shouldn't. I didn't say that it was. I didn't read the post you were replying to, and your own post read as if it was skeptical that personality plays an important role in attraction.

Though presumably, whether orientation is a purely social construct or genetic, it likely covaries with certain traits and so you could probably come up with a mapping for sexual orientation on personality just like we do for, say, political orientation.

The issue would always be the explanation, though.

I've heard this suggestion a few times before though I'm not familiar with the research.

It's based on a physiological arousal paradigm, and the finding boils down to women being turned on by any human sexual imagery (as opposed to sex as a concept) whereas men predictably are only physiologically aroused by their orientation. All of this happens quite rapidly, and there's a supression effect, and there's no clear explanation for why the findings are this way. So huge, huge grain of salt is needed.

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...
No one has classifed orientation as a subset of anything. It's still unclear what the mechanism for it is, so it doesn't make sense to subsume it as a category. There's just not enough data to say whether it's primary, secondary, tertiary or just a socially constructed category.

Right, but people in this thread have stated that sexuality (i.e., do you find men/women/both attractive) is an element of personality and for this reason there should be varied sexualities amongst the LIs.

Ski Mask Wei wrote...
I was mostly referring to future Bioware games and how I don't want it back but if you liked it I guess it's cool.  Do you want every party member in a Bioware game to be bisexual from now on?  No problem?  

People just want the LIs to be bisexual (or open to both genders)...that wouldn't apply to party members you can't even romance, of course.

 

Ski Mask Wei wrote... 
What if I want an option for Isabella not to be a slattern?  She was perfect to me aside from that little personality quirk.  Maybe if she was blonde too?  Can I get that changed too Bioware?  You know what?  F#%* that...I want Flemeth instead.  Mr. Laidlaw I need a Flemeth romance in DA3.  I need it.

Again, people just want the available LIs to be open for both male and female.  So if you do like Isabela and want to romance her, gender isn't getting in the way (nor is anything else).  

If you don't particularly like any of the LIs then that's a separate issue.  No one could romance Aveline because she just wasn't an option...period.   It had nothing to do with a gender check.  People don't want their ability to romance one of the available LIs impeded by gender especially considering it's not impeded by other things like race.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 janvier 2012 - 03:39 .

[nightscrawl]

motomotogirl wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

Here is the dialogue between Anders and Nathaniel... not really seeing it, sorry. And I'm all for flirty dialogue. By comparison, Anders's conversations with Velanna are much more loaded.

... there's a reason why there are Nathaniel x Anders fangirls and fanboys.

One line? that's it?

There are Kirk/Spock and Harry/Ron fangirls and boys too, that doesn't mean it's a thing supported by the actual content.

Knowing DAA Anders, I'm sure he did respond in that tone. However, playful or flippant doesn't necessarily mean flirtatious. And I'm pretty sure Nathaniel would have ignored the suggestion either way since he a) seemed to find Anders annoying, and also was interested in Velanna.

Abispa wrote...

I am all for Bioware making the characters any persuasion they wish, but it is pretty obvious that their designation of certain characters as LI is an developer decision and NOT some "realistic" outgrowth of character development by the writers. If the DA writers come out and say, "Sorry, guys, but we want to keep Morrigan/Alistair/Sebastian straight," then I can't argue with that. Just as s/s critics can't act betrayed when the writers chose to use the "bi" option in DA2.

Well that all depends on which they start with when they are in super early development stages. Chicken and egg scenario as it were. In DA2, there are two companions that are non-romance options: Varric and Aveline. We don't know when the decision was made to keep them that way.

So let's say that they start out with wanting six main companions (not including Sebass DLC or sibling). From there they might also say that 4/6 should be LI, OR they might just throw it to the writers at that point and have them develop. Characters like Isabela and Fenris specifically have a lot of personal baggage that makes their romances complicated; Hawke doesn't even complete the romance until Act 3 for each of them, whereas Anders and Merrill's romances are official in Act 2.

If the writers of Fenris and Isabela went about saying that their character has this, this, and this in their personal history that would make an intimate relationship difficult, it doesn't mean they decided that they would be a LI before they were developed because the same issues can be said for Aveline.

I also don't think that the development is so one sided, since the writers, who Bioware seems to value a lot, would have to work hand-in-hand with the other devs who can step back from the written story elements and say "we really like this idea, but it's not practical from a game standpoint, so we have to either modify it a bit or use something else."

jlb524 wrote...

Again, people just want the available LIs to be open for both male and female. So if you do like Isabela and want to romance her, gender isn't getting in the way (nor is anything else).

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!! Someone put it in clear, concise terms!

Modifié par nightscrawl, 05 janvier 2012 - 03:48 .

[Sylvianus]

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

Nope. I don't want it back. I want authentic characters, not lustbots designed to fit each player's preferences. And if you honestly care about character and story/plot integrity you don't want it back.

+ 1

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm not sure how that is personality, though.

I don't know if this is something that's very important, or a mere technicality -- i use the 'personality' in this context as shorthand for "all that can be said about the person in order to describe them, that relates to their mind rather than physical features". So that will include traits and preferences, both the ones which are possible to control and the ones who aren't.

And yes, dislike for broccoli and refusing to eat it would fall under that too since it's a 'preference' and resulting trait which can be used to describe you, and part of what makes you an individual.

[Russalka]

Sylvianus wrote...

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

Nope. I don't want it back. I want authentic characters, not lustbots designed to fit each player's preferences. And if you honestly care about character and story/plot integrity you don't want it back.

+ 1

The romance plots of every love interest were emotional and fascinating regardless of what sex my Hawke was. I cannot see the problem.

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...
I don't know if this is something that's very important, or a mere technicality -- i use the 'personality' in this context as shorthand for "all that can be said about the person in order to describe them, that relates to their mind rather than physical features". So that will include traits and preferences, both the ones which are possible to control and the ones who aren't.

And yes, dislike for broccoli and refusing to eat it would fall under that too since it's a 'preference' and resulting trait which can be used to describe you, and part of what makes you an individual.

Which brings me back to my concern:  why is gender preference being singled out as the sole thing that should be used to distinguish LIs in every game?  I think 'attraction to dwarves' would fit in 'personality' then as well, but there's no variance amongst the LIs in DA:O in this regard...and that seems to be okay with most people in general.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 janvier 2012 - 06:50 .

[Sylvianus]

Russalka wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

Nope. I don't want it back. I want authentic characters, not lustbots designed to fit each player's preferences. And if you honestly care about character and story/plot integrity you don't want it back.

+ 1

The romance plots of every love interest were emotional and fascinating regardless of what sex my Hawke was. I cannot see the problem.

I fail to see that someone who just wants to get everyone in bed, or have no restrictions regardless of the characters is really interested in the authenticity of the characters. Besides, like many admitted, they don't care or " it isnt important " for them because its " a high fantasy game ".

The all bi system is just a share content for reasons out of story. There is nothing else.

[Ryzaki]

Russalka wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

Nope. I don't want it back. I want authentic characters, not lustbots designed to fit each player's preferences. And if you honestly care about character and story/plot integrity you don't want it back.

+ 1

The romance plots of every love interest were emotional and fascinating regardless of what sex my Hawke was. I cannot see the problem.

Agreed. I don't see the Alistair/Morrigan romances better than Leliana/Zev because they were restricted (they're better because they had more to do with the main plot. <_< ) 

[Sylvianus]

Filament wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Russalka wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

Nope. I don't want it back. I want authentic characters, not lustbots designed to fit each player's preferences. And if you honestly care about character and story/plot integrity you don't want it back.

+ 1

The romance plots of every love interest were emotional and fascinating regardless of what sex my Hawke was. I cannot see the problem.

I fail to see that someone who just wants to get everyone in bed, or have no restrictions regardless of the characters is really interested in the authenticity of the characters. Besides, like many admitted, they don't care or " it isnt important " for them because its " a high fantasy game ".

The all bi system is just a share content for reasons out of story. There is nothing else.

I like how you morphed "all bi" into "just wants to get everyone in bed." Those darn promiscuous non-heteros. And how if they were promiscuous that would make it not authentic. And how you initially defended that position of "caring about plot integrity" by appealing to others' tolerance of different opinions even if they don't agree when really if you agree with what Ski Mask said, you don't care about their opinions reciprocally at all, you just think they're flat out wrong.

What ?

If there are some people who want just their straight Li, that's their opinion, not mine. I said, I saw nothing wrong with that. That doesn't mean I agree for those reasons.

If some people want everyone in bed, or no restrictions, that's fine, that's their opinion and It doesn't bother me. But, yes, they don't care about the character, to MY opinion according to what i see as fundamental for the character identity, what I said since even before the release of dragon age. , where did I ever say they are wrong ?

They think like they want, I don't care, but hey, he quoted me, I answered and I gave my thought.

Please,  don't put words in my mouth.