922 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
If some people want everyone in bed, or no restrictions, that's fine, that's their opinion and It doesn't bother me. But, yes, they don't care about the character, to MY opinion according to what i see as fundamental for the character identity, what I said since even before the release of dragon age. , where did I ever say they are wrong ?

They think like they want, I don't care, but hey, he quoted me, I answered and I gave my thought.

Please,  don't put words in my mouth.

I hope you realize that wanting 'no restrictions' isn't the same as 'wanting everyone in bed' i.e., romancing every LI in each pt.

I think you do..but I'm not sure.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 janvier 2012 - 08:48 .

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
If some people want everyone in bed, or no restrictions, that's fine, that's their opinion and It doesn't bother me. But, yes, they don't care about the character, to MY opinion according to what i see as fundamental for the character identity, what I said since even before the release of dragon age. , where did I ever say they are wrong ?

They think like they want, I don't care, but hey, he quoted me, I answered and I gave my thought.

Please,  don't put words in my mouth.

I hope you realize that wanting 'no restrictions' isn't the same as 'wanting everyone in bed' i.e., romancing every LI in each pt.

Aye.

I actually would prefer if the LIs wouldn't romance you if you were romancing someone else. Being able to hop from Morrigan to Leliana to Zevran was annoying. At least it's a bit more difficult in DA2.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2012 - 08:49 .

[Sylvianus]

Filament wrotes...

Don't put words in your mouth, after you just put words into theirs by saying they don't care about the character. Ok.

If you really respected their opinion, how they respect "character integrity" relative to your opinion would be irrelevant, because what you see as fundamental is not necessarily what they see as fundamental, or they don't see it the same way. You wouldn't claim consequently that your opinion has a monopoly on honesty and that they can't care about character integrity while supporting their position "if they're being honest."

1 - No I didn't put words in their mouths.  I give my thoughts. You, you quoted me, and you are saying something I never said. See ? Mhh , not hard to understand.

2 -   Now let's be serious.

are you joking me ? Are you ****ing  try to joke  ? are you really comparing people's honesty, with the simple feeling that people prefer the fun over the authenticity of the characters in a story? (Which is true, and can be totally correct besides)?

Really? Are you that silly ? You can't understand the difference and how it is not the same ? 

Claim that people are homophobic, selfish, who have a problem, say that people lie,? And all that crap ? ****; this.

What is the relationship between saying that people do not really care about the authenticity of the characters, something that is simply a point of view about a different point of view ?

And not something that directly launches a personal attack on what people are and what are the identities ?

When someone says that the point of view of people is stupid, do you have seen me react? No. Because it does not attack people's personalities. He simply think that it's idiot FOR HIM.

And when I am saying, that people should stop asking people to say that it isn't important, that's just because for them it is important. a contradictory statement.

My statement isn't a contradictory.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 janvier 2012 - 08:54 .

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...
Aye.

I actually would prefer if the LIs wouldn't romance you if you were romancing someone else. Being able to hop from Morrigan to Leliana to Zevran was annoying. At least it's a bit more difficult in DA2.

Yeah, they should be reluctant if you are in an active romance. My lone Male Warden kept hopping between Zevran's and Morrigan's tent which was kind of hilarious...and Leliana totally wanted him even though he was an a-hole and was bed-hopping two others in the camp XD

That's character integrity for you.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 janvier 2012 - 08:57 .

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
Aye.

I actually would prefer if the LIs wouldn't romance you if you were romancing someone else. Being able to hop from Morrigan to Leliana to Zevran was annoying. At least it's a bit more difficult in DA2.

Yeah, they should be reluctant if you are in an active romance. My lone Male Warden kept hopping between Zevran's and Morrigan's tent which was kind of hilarious...and Leliana totally wanted him even though he was an a-hole and was bed-hopping two others in the camp XD

That's character integrity for you.

Yup. Apparently not wanting to share doesn't matter until they hit a certain approval level. Go figure.

[Russalka]

I was going to bother with a reply, but instead decided return to "getting every one of the lustbots into my bed".

[Sylvianus]

Filament wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

1 - No I didn't put words in their mouths.  I give my thoughts.

And your thoughts put words in their mouth. You know:

are you really comparing people's honesty, with the simple feeling that people prefer the fun over the authenticity of the characters in a story? (Which is true, and can be totally correct besides)?

Hint: the words are "I prefer fun over the authenticity of the characters in the story."

Really? Are you that silly ? You can't understand the difference and how it is not the same ? 

I brought up honesty because you quoted in agreement with a person who said people who disagree with you are dishonest. It's not that hard to understand why one would take issue with that. If you didn't want people to take you to task for someone else's opinion, don't openly agree with it then?

1 - At this point, you are just being ridiculous.

2 - Really ? I need to hold your hand to understand the words?

3 - she didn't say, they are dishonest, she said generally, if you are for this system, you don't care about the authencity of characters, what is basically correct,  you really need to understand the meaning of words it seems. Or you are someone looking for meaning where there is none. dishonesty, has nothing to do with her statement. If there is something I do not like, that's the attempt to distort the words of others.

If you think, she's wrong, fine, but don't try to pretend, that's it's a personal attack, don't even try to comparate this with the insults like homophobic, etc, because you aren't going anywhere.

And no, i don't care that you tasked me, do not worry, because that was just ridiculous. Your point is basically nonsense since the beginning.

[Abispa]

@ Ryzaki & jlb524 -- My favorite run through of the DA:O game was a male noble knight who romanced Morrigan and got the ring, 2) broke up with her to romance Leliana, 3) married Anora, 4) kept Leliana as a mistress, and 5) reunited with Morrigan and went through the mirror with a god baby. *Sniffle* It is an OUTRAGE that realistic romances like these are endangered by making the Dragon Age LIs "bi"!

[Ski Mask Wei]

jlb524 wrote...

In Exile wrote...
No one has classifed orientation as a subset of anything. It's still unclear what the mechanism for it is, so it doesn't make sense to subsume it as a category. There's just not enough data to say whether it's primary, secondary, tertiary or just a socially constructed category.

Right, but people in this thread have stated that sexuality (i.e., do you find men/women/both attractive) is an element of personality and for this reason there should be varied sexualities amongst the LIs.

Ski Mask Wei wrote...
I was mostly referring to future Bioware games and how I don't want it back but if you liked it I guess it's cool.  Do you want every party member in a Bioware game to be bisexual from now on?  No problem?  

People just want the LIs to be bisexual (or open to both genders)...that wouldn't apply to party members you can't even romance, of course.

 

Ski Mask Wei wrote... 
What if I want an option for Isabella not to be a slattern?  She was perfect to me aside from that little personality quirk.  Maybe if she was blonde too?  Can I get that changed too Bioware?  You know what?  F#%* that...I want Flemeth instead.  Mr. Laidlaw I need a Flemeth romance in DA3.  I need it.

Again, people just want the available LIs to be open for both male and female.  So if you do like Isabela and want to romance her, gender isn't getting in the way (nor is anything else).  

If you don't particularly like any of the LIs then that's a separate issue.  No one could romance Aveline because she just wasn't an option...period.   It had nothing to do with a gender check.  People don't want their ability to romance one of the available LIs impeded by gender especially considering it's not impeded by other things like race.

You seem to think that bending the character's sexuality to fit the player's whims is different than changing elements of their personality to fit player whims when it isn't.  It's the same thing.  It's Bioware bending it's characters to make the user happy.  It's kinda like this:



Is that what you want?

Modifié par Ski Mask Wei, 05 janvier 2012 - 10:17 .

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...

@ Ryzaki & jlb524 -- My favorite run through of the DA:O game was a male noble knight who romanced Morrigan and got the ring, 2) broke up with her to romance Leliana, 3) married Anora, 4) kept Leliana as a mistress, and 5) reunited with Morrigan and went through the mirror with a god baby. *Sniffle* It is an OUTRAGE that realistic romances like these are endangered by making the Dragon Age LIs "bi"!

He really got around didn't he? 

[Abispa]

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

It's Bioware bending it's characters to make the user happy.

God forbid. How dare they make customers happy. Is making users unhappy a sign of quality to you? If so, congratulations. If DA3 has "bi" or "hero-sexual" LIs, you can look at your unhappiness as a sign of quality game making.

Also, that Eddie Murphy movie clip seems familiar, it was almost like... oh, I don't know... DA:O and ME2, maybe?

Modifié par Abispa, 05 janvier 2012 - 10:25 .

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

It's Bioware bending it's characters to make the user happy.

God forbid. How dare they make customers happy. Is making users unhappy a sign of quality to you? If so, congratulations. If DA3 has "bi" or "hero-sexual" LIs, you can look at your unhappiness as a sign of quality game making.

*dies*

[Abispa]

Ryzaki wrote...

Abispa wrote...

@ Ryzaki & jlb524 -- My favorite run through of the DA:O game was a male noble knight who romanced Morrigan and got the ring, 2) broke up with her to romance Leliana, 3) married Anora, 4) kept Leliana as a mistress, and 5) reunited with Morrigan and went through the mirror with a god baby. *Sniffle* It is an OUTRAGE that realistic romances like these are endangered by making the Dragon Age LIs "bi"!

He really got around didn't he? 

He'll pay for it, though. I fully expect that she killed and ate him after going through the mirror. Then she sacrificed the baby in some blood magic ritual to fuel her quest for world domination. He should have seen it coming, but the ****** only had one thing on his mind.

Realism and strong immersion. Nothing compares.

[Sylvianus]

Filament wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

she didn't say, they are dishonest, she said generally, if you are for this system, you don't care about the authencity of characters, what is basically correct,  you really need to understand the meaning of words it seems. Or you are someone looking for meaning where there is none. dishonesty, has nothing to do with her statement. If there is something I do not like, that's the attempt to distort the words of others.

I'm afraid you must have misread it. What s/he said was that if they honestly care about story/plot integrity they don't want it back. Meaning, if they do want it back, they either don't care about "story/plot integrity" -- or they claim to care, which most taking this position probably do, in which case they're not being honest. So either your lecture about reading comprehension is rather ironic, or you don't think it's possible for people who support that position to even claim to care about character integrity. Which would be rather closed-minded.

If you think, she's wrong, fine, but don't try to pretend, that's it's a personal attack, don't even try to comparate this with the insults like homophobic, etc, because you aren't going anywhere.

It just seemed funny how you wanted people to be tolerant of your opinions while you weren't actually tolerant of theirs. They called you homophobic and you called them dishonest and promiscuous. It was a personal attack and it is comparable. But it seems now like you didn't even realize it was a personal attack so I suppose it can be taken as an honest mistake.

1 - No what is ironic is the proportion that is the case for words completely benign. no, I just think that you exaggerate and that you dramatize everything. I stil don't see the booo personal attack. ( we need to call a moderator, quickly, need to remove that )  I read again and again, and no, really. you should certainly be very sensitive to the point where insignificant words within a matter of opinion about a point of view, cause you a heart attack.

To say that you do not " honestly or not " ( I love the word that change eveything ) care about the integrity of a story plot, etc, , it just means: that the integrity of the story, you do not care. No matter how you turn that.

It's a view about your view, it isn't about your integrity threatened.  It doesn't mean that you have problems, it doesn't mean that you are lying and that your opinion isn't your true opinion, you are dishonest and something bad motivate you, actually you are homophobe and blah blah. if she thinks that you " honestly don't care, how is it a personnal attack ? That's still correct, even it doesn't please you. That's the same as to say :

" those who want variety, didn't bother to ask variety with DAO, they want variety now, etc etc.  " it implies that there is an hypocrisy. Did I think It was a personal attack, nope, because that's not, it isn't a critical attack that desserve to react, and you are saying that this stuff is one, what is rather ridiculous.

See ? the difference ? 

If what you have condemned, is a personal attack, I think you should seriously think to isolate yourself in your house like a hermit, because at this level that is beyond comprehension.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:02 .

[jlb524]

Ski Mask Wei wrote...
You seem to think that bending the character's sexuality to fit the player's whims is different than changing elements of their personality to fit player whims when it isn't.  It's the same thing.  It's Bioware bending it's characters to make the user happy.  It's kinda like this:



Is that what you want?

Sure...if others can romance whichever is their favorite of the possible LIs in spite of gender or other aspects about their PC (see Abispa's super playa Warden) then why can't I (as in, I who likes to play Gay Wardens and Hawkes)?

Also, making the LIs bisexual =/= making the LIs 'heteroflexible' so there would be no bending involved...well, maybe some bending ifyouknowwhatImean.

When the LIs are bisexual, they are open to both opposite and same gendered romance.  It is not the case that they typically don't like it but the hero is so awesome so it's okay.

For example, because Morrigan will romance a dwarf I assume she finds them super sexay and it's not because the dwarf has to convince her and 'bend her to his will!'

Modifié par jlb524, 05 janvier 2012 - 10:56 .

[Russalka]

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

None of the love interests were like that.

[Abispa]

Russalka wrote...

Ski Mask Wei wrote...

None of the love interests were like that.

They are if you're playing a straight male hero. That, however, isn't pandering to the fans.

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...
He'll pay for it, though. I fully expect that she killed and ate him after going through the mirror. Then she sacrificed the baby in some blood magic ritual to fuel her quest for world domination. He should have seen it coming, but the ****** only had one thing on his mind.

Realism and strong immersion. Nothing compares.

Morrigan's a cannibal!

Tut tut. Should've thought with the head above his shoulders. :innocent:

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

Morrigan's a cannibal!

Not if she shapeshifted into a bear first.

[maxernst]

Sylvianus wrote...

To say that you do not " honestly or not " ( I love the word that change eveything ) care about the integrity of a story plot, etc, , it just means: that the integrity of the story, you do not care. No matter how you turn that.

Has it ever occurred to you that not everybody sees sexuality as being as fixed as you do?  That some people might actually believe that whether a character is gay, straight or bi is not actually a particularly significant change in character?  The very idea of sexual orientation as an identity is a modern one.  If people in Thedas don't see who they sleep with as being that significant in terms of who they are (and there's little evidence that they do), then why should it be a great change in character.

If sexual identity is such an important part of who the character is that you can't imagine their personality being otherwise the same or their story line playing out the same way, I can only assume that you must find it a snap to tell whether someone in real life is straight, male or bi.  Because obviously, if they were gay (rather than straight as you assume), they'd be totally different wouldn't they?

Here's a challenge for you:  Play a male warden and tell me how much evidence you actually see that Alistair is straight.  He's traveling with two beautiful women and never once does he flirt with either of them...understandable with Morrigan, but why not with Leliana?  He shows no enthusiasm for marrying Morrigan.  He's a virgin, easily embarrassed by sex talk and then there's that whole "lamp-post licking conversation"...why couldn't he be prefer men (or also like men) and still be manifestly the same person? 

Modifié par maxernst, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:13 .

[Sylvianus]

maxernst wrote...
snip

That wasn't really the point. What she said is totally correct, and I laugh if someone else is saying me that it was a personal attack. The words have meaning, and they don't need to be distorted for unknown reasons ridiculous.

Now, where did I stated that someone was fixed in one way ? If a character first straigh,  becomes BI or gays, with true reasons in the story, I see no problems. The principle they are all bi is " share content, " choose who you want to choose, " , reasons out of story, like they said,"  your dreams ". The writting has nothing to do with they are all bi and so the way they are.

They decided to annihilate sexuality (when writers write characters, they have a clear idea of ​​their personality and who they are)

It doesn't resolve around the characters any more, but the desires of the players. their sexuality isn't their, that's the player who choose.

The integrity of a character what is it ? That is simple,  respect for the vision of the author. Whatever it decided, that is its character, an as long as it is consistent with its vision, no problem. That's that, authenticity, so I'm not sure I understand how we can be for the total "authenticity" of the characters, but claim annihilate sexualities, for more fun and less restrictions. Either we prefer the fun on this point, or we prefer the other.

If the author decides to change things, because that's how he wanted things, there is no problem, as long as he show me reasons or how the character evolve, as well. Authenticity is respected, since the considerations are those of the author, for the story and resolve around the character.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:41 .

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
They decided to annihilate sexuality (when writers write characters, they have a clear idea of ​​their personality and who they are)

It doesn't resolve around the characters any more, but the desires of the players. their sexuality isn't their, that's the player who choose.

I thought bisexuality was a sexuality?

Sylvianus wrote... 
The integrity of a character what is it ? That is simple,  respect for the vision of the author. Whatever it decided, that is its character, an as long as it is consistent with its vision, no problem.
 

Like if they want to make all the LIs bisexual...which they did in DA2.

 

Sylvianus wrote...  
That's that, authenticity, so I'm not sure I understand how we can be for the total "authenticity" of the characters, but claim annihilate sexualities, for more fun and less restrictions. Either we prefer the fun on this point, or we prefer the other.
 

 

If they are bisexual they are not annihilating sexualities.

And really if it were, it's no different from 'annihilating race preferences' so people who want to do whatever romance with a dwarf character can have their fun too.  Are you okay with that?  

If you are so concerned with 'character authenticity', we can go full on linear plot and have a completely defined PC.