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[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
They decided to annihilate sexuality (when writers write characters, they have a clear idea of ​​their personality and who they are)

It doesn't resolve around the characters any more, but the desires of the players. their sexuality isn't their, that's the player who choose.

I thought bisexuality was a sexuality?

Sylvianus wrote... 
The integrity of a character what is it ? That is simple,  respect for the vision of the author. Whatever it decided, that is its character, an as long as it is consistent with its vision, no problem.
 

Like if they want to make all the LIs bisexual...which they did in DA2.

 

Sylvianus wrote...  
That's that, authenticity, so I'm not sure I understand how we can be for the total "authenticity" of the characters, but claim annihilate sexualities, for more fun and less restrictions. Either we prefer the fun on this point, or we prefer the other.
 

 

If they are bisexual they are not annihilating sexualities.

And really if it were, it's no different from 'annihilating race preferences' so people who want to do whatever romance with a dwarf character can have their fun too.  Are you okay with that?  

If you are so concerned with 'character authenticity', we can go full on linear plot and have a completely defined PC.

1 - except that the player isn't a god and doesn't have to choose for the character.
2 - They did they are all bi for share content, and not for the story, and according to their vision. same content, sames cutscene, same lines, whether you are male, or female, totally cheap.
3 - They are not bisexual, they are just objects of desires. And yes they are annihilating sexualities, if it doesn't mean anything.
4 - I don't understand the analogy about the dwarf.
5 - if am concerned, I could simply hope that the worst system isn't in the next game in this area.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:57 .

[whykikyouwhy]

Sylvianus wrote...

maxernst wrote...
snip

That wasn't really the point. What she said is totally correct, and I laugh if someone else is saying me that it was a personal attack. The words have meaning, and they don't need to be distorted for unknown reasons ridiculous.

Now, where did I stated that someone was fixed in one way ? If a character first straigh,  becomes BI or gays, with true reasons in the story, I see no problems. The principle they are all bi is " share content, " choose who you want to choose, " , reasons out of story, like they said,"  your dreams ". The writting has nothing to do with they are all bi and so the way they are.

They decided to annihilate sexuality (when writers write characters, they have a clear idea of ​​their personality and who they are)

It doesn't resolve around the characters any more, but the desires of the players. their sexuality isn't their, that's the player who choose.

The integrity of a character what is it ? That is simple,  respect for the vision of the author. Whatever it decided, that is its character, an as long as it is consistent with its vision, no problem. That's that, authenticity, so I'm not sure I understand how we can be for the total "authenticity" of the characters, but claim annihilate sexualities, for more fun and less restrictions. Either we prefer the fun on this point, or we prefer the other.

If the author decides to change things, because that's how he wanted things, there is no problem, as long as he show me reasons or how the character evolve, as well. Authenticity is respected, since the considerations are those of the author, for the story and resolve around the character.

Regarding the bolded and italicized bit...it sounds as though you would like the companions to declare their sexuality/sexual identity/sexual preferences and for the writers to, within the confines of the game's narrative, show you how those companions came to that awareness about themselves. Is that what you mean?

As players, we step into the story at a certain point, and when playing Hawke, we only get to know the companions to a certain degree - through conversation, NPC banter, quests, and romance arcs. At no point are we allowed their entire history and backstory - we only get pieces, and because they are companions/party members, we only see a degree of their character development. As many have said before, I felt as though the DA2 companions were well-written, and showed wonderful development over the course of the game's 3 acts. I personally don't need any companion to declare why (s)he feels a certain way, or why (s)he chooses to love Hawke or another party member. I don't need a history of their past loves (though some mention of their past is welcome, and was handled in-game by most). 

The thing is, if we want to look at sexual identity - how a person (or character) defines his/herself - that isn't necessarily something that the person understands firmly from an early age. That develops. Someone who identified as straight may later become aware of his/her attraction to someone of the same gender and have to reassess how he/she regards his/herself. Does that mean they were never gay, or were always bi? That's a tricky area. I think it's best to leave it to that individual to decide, and not for someone else, someone not in their figurative shoes, to attach labels as is convenient.

So too with the companions. No one declares "I'm gay" or "I'm bi" or what have you. So, if we want to treat them as living, thinking beings who should be respected, then why not allow the characters to decide for themselves who they are. If they don't make any declaration to Hawke, but will give of their hearts freely, why should we taint that by trying to stuff them into a tidy category? And as for what the writers have decided when creating the characters...well, again, we don't get the entire picture given the confines of gameplay. We don't get a full file with the likes/dislikes and elementary school report cards of the companions. And that's fine. Because for all this talk of realism, we don't get that from people we know and interact with daily IRL. So we let the stories unfold as they will, and we have to take some things at face value. 

And in a romance, that's sometimes the way of things. 

[Plaintiff]

I think the argument that the lack of a defined sexuality somehow 'harms' characterization is patently ridiculous.
For starters, there are real-life people that lack a defined sexuality. We're constantly making up new words to fit everybody, so to say that it's unrealistic is false.

Secondly, bisexuality is a defined sexuality and is present in many humans, to a varying degree. And if you really want to nitpick, Anders comment that "I've always felt you fall in love with a person rather than a body" paints him as more pansexual than strictly bisexual, and Isabela is just a wanton hedonist, which is also different from being bisexual. So to say that "everyone is bi" is misleading.

Thirdly, sexuality is fluid, and can change. It has changed for many people. There is more than one documented case of a man "discovering" a same-sex attraction late in life, when he's already married to a woman and might even have children. And vice-versa. Hawke might just be the universal Closet Key of Thedas.

Finally, their sexuality, or lack thereof, has little do with their characterization at all. It is purely incidental, a fun little aside. It is not necessary to pursue one, or even any of the available romances, and last I heard from staff (although I can't find the particular quote), the information shows that actually most players opt out of romance altogether. Ample characterization is found in the pursuit of character quests, and whether or not you're in a romance with the character at the time has little impact on how they play out.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:10 .

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
1 - except that the player isn't a god and doesn't have to choose for the character.

Um, that is how BW romances work.  If the player wants to romance LI X, LI X has no say in it.

Sylvianus wrote... 
2 - They did they are all bi for share content, and not for the story, and according to their vision. same content, sames cutscene, same lines, whether you are male, or female, totally cheap.

You know this for sure?

The lines were different from male to female.  I don't know why you'd expect the cutscenes to vary as they don't ever vary them based on gender (or race or anything else).  They are all 'generic and cheap' like that.

Sylvianus wrote...  
3 - They are not bisexual, they are just objects of desires. And yes they are annihilating sexualities, if it doesn't mean anything.

Wait, so they aren't bisexual now?  The devs said they were.

Sylvianus wrote...   
4 - I don't understand the analogy about the dwarf.

Um, so 'real' people in the Dragon Age universe have preferences for sexual partners that fall along race lines (like, you don't see humans and dwarves hooking up).   None of the DA:O LIs had a specific preference for dwarves when 'realistically' they should have....it was annihilated in favor of allowing dwarven PCs to do a romance.  Since the DA:O LIs don't have a say in race preference (and many other things about which Warden they romance) they aren't real people but objects of desire, yadda yadda yadda.

Modifié par jlb524, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:17 .

[Sylvianus]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...


If the author decides to change things, because that's how he wanted things, there is no problem, as long as he show me reasons or how the character evolve, as well. Authenticity is respected, since the considerations are those of the author, for the story and resolve around the character.

Regarding the bolded and italicized bit...it sounds as though you would like the companions to declare their sexuality/sexual identity/sexual preferences and for the writers to, within the confines of the game's narrative, show you how those companions came to that awareness about themselves. Is that what you mean?

Not necessarily, not really, something more natural. There may be subtle things, not just shouting I'm gay or bi now.

But if a character is straight,  becomes gay or bi, without anything, I'm not sure you can think it's for good reason, ( the customer ) . If the author wants an evolution of Its characters, It also needs to explain and demonstrate this trend. Otherwise an evolution is a failure in its implementation, and its message is not received by the public. And misunderstanding persists. Wanting a change is not enough, there must be also a story behind as a support, or at least signs that explain that. IMO, it's condemned to fail, if a character change totally, doesn't seem like the first person whe known, without anything that explain that change.

Take the case of Anders. It would be foolish to repeat the same mistakes. ( Maybe you don't consider Anders as a mistake, but many do ) When there are sudden changes (like in the books) from one episode to another, it is necessary to establish a link. Well that's my thought.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:13 .

[Sylvianus]

[quote]jlb524 wrote...

[quote]Sylvianus wrote...
1 - except that the player isn't a god and doesn't have to choose for the character.
[/quote]
Um, that is how BW romances work.  If the player wants to romance LI X, LI X has no say in it.

[/quote]

[/quote]
Nope, a woman does have to deal with it, if Morrigan is straight, and if leliana is BI, and love also both gender, the same with Zevran. In the game, the player deal with the sexuality of the characters.

The other points, well, don't seem important to answer. There is nothing, just arguing some things insignificants like you do usually in one sentence.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:25 .

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
Nope, a woman does have to deal with it, if Morrigan is straight, and if leliana is BI, and love also both gender, the same with Zevran. In the next game, the player deal with the sexuality of the characters.

A female can't even pursue the relationship with Morrigan.

You just want to focus on sexuality, but outside of that, do the LIs have any say in what type of hero they will or won't romance?

Based on factors like...race, class, morality, previous decision, whether or not the hero is currently sexing up Zevran and Morrigan, etc?

Modifié par jlb524, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:26 .

[maxernst]

Sylvianus wrote...

maxernst wrote...
snip

They decided to annihilate sexuality (when writers write characters, they have a clear idea of ​​their personality and who they are)

And you know that they do this, how, exactly?    Because there are lots of characters in my own stories whose sexuality I haven't given the slightest thought to. Because you happen to think that sexuality is an essential part of defining who that character is, you assume that anyone who disagrees with you must not care about characterization.  I

Furthermore, they don't "change" sexuality because of the player.  Different playthroughs are alternate universes.  In one universe, Anders is a character who likes men.  In another, he likes women and if he also happens to like men, he doesn't mention it.  

[whykikyouwhy]

Sylvianus wrote...

Not necessarily, not really, something more natural. There may be subtle things, not just shouting I'm gay or bi now.

But if a character is straight,  becomes gay or bi, without anything, I'm not sure you can think it's for good reason, ( the customer ) . If the author wants an evolution of Its characters, It also needs to explain and demonstrate this trend. Otherwise an evolution is a failure in its implementation, and its message is not received by the public. And misunderstanding persists. Wanting a change is not enough, there must be also a story behind as a support, or at least signs that explain that. IMO, it's condemned to fail, if a character change totally, doesn't seem like the first person whe known, without anything that explain that change.

Take the case of Anders. It would be foolish to repeat the same mistakes. ( Maybe you don't consider Anders as a mistake, but many do ) When there are sudden changes (like in the books) from one episode to another, it is necessary to establish a link. Well that's my thought.

With Anders, there were subtle things. Ambiguous statements and the like. But given that romances were not included in DA:A, romance-driven/themed dialogue probably took a backseat.

People saw what they wanted to see. And that's not necessarily wrong, but in making assumptions based on what was there, the possibility that Anders could love a man becomes shocking, and possibly an area of discomfort for some. But at no point did Anders ever say "I love women and only women."

The change wasn't really sudden. But if a person wasn't looking, it might have crept up on him/her. Yet, the links were there. 

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

Which brings me back to my concern:  why is gender preference being singled out as the sole thing that should be used to distinguish LIs in every game? 

It isn't. That's a straw man you keep attacking because it's far easier to attack it than the actual argument, which is the gender preference should be part of the whole characterization package, and not excluded.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:33 .

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Which brings me back to my concern:  why is gender preference being singled out as the sole thing that should be used to distinguish LIs in every game? 

It isn't. That's a straw man you keep attacking because it's far easier to attack it than the actual argument, which is the gender preference should be part of the whole characterization package, and not excluded.

Yet many of those saying such keeping holding up DAO as some ideal when it didn't uphold the characterization package.

[tmp7704]

syllogi wrote...

The problem with this in regards to creating solely homosexual LIs is that the people who are asking for this seem to expect all male s/s characters to express their "personality" by being caricatures of Paul Lynde or Charles Nelson Reilly.  I'm not sure how else they think homosexuality would affect a character's personality.

I'm not fond of overdone stereotypes of any kind, but it's the one area where i think BioWare writers are capable of doing work more subtle than that -- Wade and Herren can come to mind here, specifically the way their relationship apparently flew under radars of plenty people.

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Which brings me back to my concern:  why is gender preference being singled out as the sole thing that should be used to distinguish LIs in every game? 

It isn't. That's a straw man you keep attacking because it's far easier to attack it than the actual argument, which is the gender preference should be part of the whole characterization package, and not excluded.

Since no one seems to care about the 'whole characterization package' as they don't complain about the many many other ways that romances in games like DA:O and ME1 and ME2 defecate all over 'character integrity and authenticity' in romances I don't think it is.

[blothulfur]

No. Mating should be decided by the tamassran, there should be none of this romance vashedan. Love the Qun, do not indulge in the wasteful foolishness of hormones and lust.

Modifié par blothulfur, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:38 .

[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...
Nope, a woman does have to deal with it, if Morrigan is straight, and if leliana is BI, and love also both gender, the same with Zevran. In the next game, the player deal with the sexuality of the characters.

A female can't even pursue the relationship with Morrigan.

You just want to focus on sexuality, but outside of that, do the LIs have any say in what type of hero they will or won't romance?

Based on factors like...race, class, morality, previous decision, whether or not the hero is currently sexing up Zevran and Morrigan, etc?

Well, bioware don't want to let us to customize our characters like we want, and according to their personality now ? Why ? because that's a way they want for the characters that seems more independent, according to their vision despite all the factors like race, class, morality, previous decisions, whether or not the hero is currently sexing up zevran and morrigan. So ?

And many of you said that you didn't want customization because they are independent, despite all those factors you showed. that's interesting how we all are selective. maybe not everybody know he is and that the only difference is what is important or not for him

It isn't because in other ways, because of the mechanics the characters are less reactive, i want it happens too in this area. If I can avoid it.

We are talking about they are all bi, here, I think. So what you are saying is irrelevant, if i can i avoid the system that  I see as less reactive, I won't choose it. That seems obivous.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:41 .

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yet many of those saying such keeping holding up DAO as some ideal when it didn't uphold the characterization package.

Is that actual ideal they claim it to be in this regard, or are they simply choosing the game which does some of what they want, over one which doesn't?

If i choose a piece of bread over a **** sandwich it doesn't mean that piece of bread is my ideal meal.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:40 .

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...
Is that actual ideal they claim it to be in this regard, or are they simply choosing the game which does some of what they want, over one which doesn't?

If i choose a piece of bread over a **** sandwich it doesn't mean that piece of bread is my ideal meal.

Not sure. I didn't hear any where near such characterization complaints about DAO though. So that piece of bread couldn't have been that bad.

I do recall a "DAO did it perfectly." but I'm not sure from what thread.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:43 .

[Sylvianus]

tmp7704 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Which brings me back to my concern:  why is gender preference being singled out as the sole thing that should be used to distinguish LIs in every game? 

It isn't. That's a straw man you keep attacking because it's far easier to attack it than the actual argument, which is the gender preference should be part of the whole characterization package, and not excluded.

. All her points are often just straw man arguments.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:44 .

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
Well, bioware don't want to let us to customize our characters like we want, and according to their personality now ? Why ? because that's a way they want for the characters that seems more independent, according to their vision despite all the factors like race, class, morality, previous decisions, whether or not the hero is currently sexing up zevran and morrigan. So ? And many of you said that you didn't want customization because they are independant, depiste all those factors you showed. that's interesting how we all are selective. maybe not everybody know he is and that the only difference is what is important or not for him.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Those factors I mentioned can possibly affect another's attractiveness towards the PC.

Does it make sense that someone like Leliana, who is reluctant to enter a relationship after getting her heart broken, would be so willing to jump into one with my Dalish Male Warden who:

1)  Mocked all of her religious beliefs.
2)  Made out with every female he could in front of her (and the others).
3)  Killed people for the lulz.
4)  Hopped into bed with both Zevran and Morrigan as often as he could.

But she can totally learn to dig him if he buys her a lot of presents.  

Sylvianus wrote... 
It isn't because in other way, because of the mehanics the characters are less reactive, i want it happens to in this area. If I can avoid it.

We are talking about they are all bi, here, I think. So what you are saying is irrelevant, if i can i avoid the system that  I see as less reactive, i won't choose it. That seems obivous.

They were never reactive to begin with (see my example above).  The didn't even 'react' to your gender in order to turn you down...you couldn't even approach them.  

What I'm not saying is irrelevant...if you were okay with the DA:O way and all the possible absurd offenses to character integrity then what is the issue with DA2?  DA2 actually improved that in some areas (no gift spamming, crazy bed-hopping hijinks, two romance paths that are a bit more reactive to how your PC interacts with the LI).

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

Since no one seems to care about the 'whole characterization package' as they don't complain about the many many other ways that romances in games like DA:O and ME1 and ME2 defecate all over 'character integrity and authenticity' in romances I don't think it is.

There is lot of things people don't actively complain about even on this forum. Even in this very thread you have a mere handful of posters. Using your logic, no one but you, me and few other people care about this subject at all.

Lack of visible complaints isn't a proof people don't care. It's only a proof they don't care to complain on game forums.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:46 .

[maxernst]

Ryzaki wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...
Is that actual ideal they claim it to be in this regard, or are they simply choosing the game which does some of what they want, over one which doesn't?

If i choose a piece of bread over a **** sandwich it doesn't mean that piece of bread is my ideal meal.

Not sure. I didn't hear any where near such characterization complaints about DAO though. So that piece of bread couldn't have been that bad.

Yep, can't remember a single person complaining that all the love interests would romance elves or mages, which--in Thedas--is probably more important than gender. 

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Since no one seems to care about the 'whole characterization package' as they don't complain about the many many other ways that romances in games like DA:O and ME1 and ME2 defecate all over 'character integrity and authenticity' in romances I don't think it is.

There is lot of things people don't actively complain about even on this forum. Even in this very thread you have a mere handful of posters. Using your logic, no one but you, me and few other people care about this subject at all.

Lack of visible complaints isn't a proof people don't care. It's only a proof they don't care to complain on game forums.

True that can go one way or the other. People can care that they're restricted in options but decide complaining about it's pointless.

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

I actually would prefer if the LIs wouldn't romance you if you were romancing someone else. Being able to hop from Morrigan to Leliana to Zevran was annoying. At least it's a bit more difficult in DA2.

I'd prefer if that depended on their personality -- as some people may choose to stay away from someone already in relationship, some won't mind, and yet other will see that as personal challenge and a reason to actually get involved. Making them all behave in the same manner 'so the player doesn't get upset' is just another variant of the very thing i dislike to see in the NPCs.

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...
There is lot of things people don't actively complain about even on this forum. Even in this very thread you have a mere handful of posters. Using your logic, no one but you, me and few other people care about this subject at all.

And everyone that started the many complaint threads after the game launched.

tmp7704 wrote... 
Lack of visible complaints isn't a proof people don't care. It's only a proof they don't care to complain on game forums.

Then I wonder why those that choose to complain about lack of character integrity in DA2 because of the 'all bi thing' don't also complain about it in DA:O.  

If I complain that the elves looked stupid in DA:O because they had large ears but I never once complained that the elves in DA2 look stupid in spite of them also having large ears isn't that a bit...odd?

If you see a fair amount of threads complaining about the DA:O elf ear size but ignoring the fact that this same issue is also with the DA2 elves how would you react to that?