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Open Romances and Interpretive Sexuality of Characters


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#51
Jaulen

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Ineffable Igor wrote...

 I am inclined to believe that Anders and Isabela are bisexual as part of their characters, but it's far more ambiguous with Merrill and Fenris and their sexuality pretty much depends on the player.  My Fenris and Merrill are staight (MerrillxCarver = cutest thing in the history of ever)


Yes, in my head Isabella and Anders were bi....

Fenris is alway a conundrum to me, after all, with Denarius' swishy walk and innuendo...I assumed that he used Fenris in 'other' ways....but would taht make Fenris open to a same sex relationship, or would he totally recoil from it?

Merrill...I never really thought the Dalish would go for a same sex relationship....mainly for the whole having to procreate to carry on the lineage of the people.

and Image IPB to a Merrill and Carver hookup.....I think that's why I usually stay away from romancing her.....I want her for my brother! They'd be so totally cute.....poor Carver when he finds out that Merrill ain't as sweet and innocent as she seems.

#52
Rawgrim

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jlb524 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
It doesn`t increase anything when every romance is exactly the same in each playthrough, no matter what racegender you are playing.


What are you talking about?

In BG2, you romance Jaheira with an elf.

You then romance her with a human...it's the same.

If you play a gnome, you can't even romance her.

The issue you are raising is that the romances don't react to race/gender all that much.  This is a separate issue from "Should the romances be open to all PCs regardless of race/gender?".    The latter does add more roleplaying and replayability.  For example, my DA:O replayability was limited (as far as making different characters to try out different romances) b/c I was limited to Leliana as a gay female.

twincast wrote...
Don't go around putting words into other people's mouths. Seriously.


I was asking for clarification.



It does add more replayability if there are restrictions. If you have to play a certain race, gender or aligment to romance different character, the replays with different characters will open up new aspects of the game itself. It will also flesh out the romancable characters in that particular playthrough as well. You will learn stuff about Mrs evil assassin, if your own character is evil and romancing her, than you would learn if your character is a lawful good paladin.

#53
staindgrey

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 If it makes sense and adds to the game, do it. I'll give some examples of how not to do it:

1) If it doesn't make sense for the character. For an example, Ashley in ME1 was very classic Christian, and it's safe to assume that 200 years from now there will still be a large number of Christians who believe homosexuality to be wrong. Ashley gives this impression throughout the game, and only flirts with BroShep, never FemShep. Suddenly making her bi for no reason in ME3 would arguably betray her character.

2) If there is no difference between the sexes. I mean, I get it, people are people and genitals don't matter when it comes to love, yada yada. But no one can honestly tell me that, both physically and vocally, a bi person never treats women differently than men, and vice versa. If we have the option of romancing the same character with either a male or a female PC, then I expect differences (if only subtle) between those encounters. I also expect that LI to give signs that he/she is bi regardless of us romancing him/her, so that it doesn't come off as a straight guy going gay for just my PC. Once again, it feels as though it's betraying the character.

3) If there is no social implication. Look at it this way: In DAII, Hawke can be a lesbian, right? So, her entire family dies off minus one or possibly two people. Wouldn't there be some sort of consequence in the eyes of Kirkwall for the last of the Champion's line to not be able to have a blood heir? Who would inherit the estate? Wouldn't there be people fighting for Hawke's blessings in the very likely chance she dies in battle? Why is everyone indifferent to the fact that their Champion chose to knock boots with a Dalish elf living in the alienage with all the social prowess of a plank of wood? If Hawke is so famous, why does NOBODY have an opinion on her love life?

DAII's romances built individual character interaction, but that was about it. There was so much more that could have been done with eah and every one, and much like the rest of the game, it just fell short. LI's, to me, are a huge waste of potential. Remember the camp in DA:O, when Morrigan and Wynn had very vibrant opinions on your relationship with Leliana? I cracked up when Morrigan bluntly told me (with disgust) that I "wouldn't stop smiling", and I felt an emotional obligation to stand up for Leliana when Wynn questioned whether it was wise to be with her. That never really happened in DAII, outside of some isabela banter that never extended beyond sex jokes.

Anyway, point is, the "bisexual" part of the romance shouldn't be the hot topic. The implementation of the entire LI, regardless of orientation, should. If Anders is only straight but that straight relationship can be more fleshed out, then I'll take it. If Anders is now bi but each side of the romance gets its due, then I'll take that. Compromising one or the other just to please a minor amount of heavily invested fans with a half-hearted copy/paste isn't going to make anybody happier.

#54
Rawgrim

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staindgrey hit a few nails on the head.

#55
Atakuma

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Rawgrim wrote...
No it doesn`t. It makes each playthrough different, depending on what kind of character you play.
Having Adolf Hitler being able to romance Anne Frank isn`t enhancing roleplaying in any way. its game breaking. This being a possebility just to add a possibility, is just dumb.

I am not talking about anything other than character sexuality. Having all romances be bisexual doesn't take anything away from you, but adds something for others, that is all I'm saying.

#56
jlb524

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Jaulen wrote...

Merrill...I never really thought the Dalish would go for a same sex relationship....mainly for the whole having to procreate to carry on the lineage of the people.

and Image IPB to a Merrill and Carver hookup.....I think that's why I usually stay away from romancing her.....I want her for my brother! They'd be so totally cute.....poor Carver when he finds out that Merrill ain't as sweet and innocent as she seems.


Then why would she go for Carver since she has to make elven babies?

#57
twincast

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jlb524 wrote...

twincast wrote...
Don't go around putting words into other people's mouths. Seriously.


I was asking for clarification.

Insinuating homophobia and/or privilege is what you were. But this isn't my battle to fight, so I'll drop it.

#58
Rawgrim

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Atakuma wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
No it doesn`t. It makes each playthrough different, depending on what kind of character you play.
Having Adolf Hitler being able to romance Anne Frank isn`t enhancing roleplaying in any way. its game breaking. This being a possebility just to add a possibility, is just dumb.

I am not talking about anything other than character sexuality. Having all romances be bisexual doesn't take anything away from you, but adds something for others, that is all I'm saying.



It does take something away from playes (not you). It puts them in an unrealistic "situation" that is ruining the immersion of the gaming experience. Staingrey explained it very well in his\\her post.

#59
Jaulen

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jlb524 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

Merrill...I never really thought the Dalish would go for a same sex relationship....mainly for the whole having to procreate to carry on the lineage of the people.

and Image IPB to a Merrill and Carver hookup.....I think that's why I usually stay away from romancing her.....I want her for my brother! They'd be so totally cute.....poor Carver when he finds out that Merrill ain't as sweet and innocent as she seems.


Then why would she go for Carver since she has to make elven babies?


Well, she's been kicked out of her clan hasn't she? And she never really identifies with the alienage elves.

#60
Atakuma

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staindgrey wrote...
Anyway, point is, the "bisexual" part of the romance shouldn't be the hot topic. The implementation of the entire LI, regardless of orientation, should. If Anders is only straight but that straight relationship can be more fleshed out, then I'll take it. If Anders is now bi but each side of the romance gets its due, then I'll take that. Compromising one or the other just to please a minor amount of heavily invested fans with a half-hearted copy/paste isn't going to make anybody happier.

This is how it's always been done. Despite how it may seem, romances are a low priority for bioware and have never been very deep regardless of sexual orientation.

#61
alex90c

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motomotogirl wrote...

jlb524 wrote...


So is every LI ignoring race, class, morality and jumping in bed with the PC regardlesss.


Exactly!  Let's have some LI refuse to bed a PC because of her race or religion.  That would be more "realistic" wouldn't it?  

People who are afraid and/or disgusted by LGBT people will come up with all kinds of seeming logical explanations so as not to admit to themselves or anyone else that they just don't feel comfortable around gay folks.


I predicted it and here it was. God forbid a guy doesn't want a bloke hitting on him, jeez, they're obviously DIRTY HOMOPHOBES.

#62
Guest_Cthulhu42_*

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Jaulen wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

Merrill...I never really thought the Dalish would go for a same sex relationship....mainly for the whole having to procreate to carry on the lineage of the people.

and Image IPB to a Merrill and Carver hookup.....I think that's why I usually stay away from romancing her.....I want her for my brother! They'd be so totally cute.....poor Carver when he finds out that Merrill ain't as sweet and innocent as she seems.


Then why would she go for Carver since she has to make elven babies?


Well, she's been kicked out of her clan hasn't she? And she never really identifies with the alienage elves.

I'm fairly certain that she was being sarcastic there.

Regardless, I wonder why anyone would go for Carver.

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 29 décembre 2011 - 07:40 .


#63
Medhia Nox

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I think they should make "fixed sexualities" but make the coolest, hottest bad ass dude gay - and the hottest, sexiest bad ass chick a lesbian.

Just because I like watching straight people whine (no - not really).

And I'll say: Well, at least it's more realistic now.

#64
jlb524

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Jaulen wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

Merrill...I never really thought the Dalish would go for a same sex relationship....mainly for the whole having to procreate to carry on the lineage of the people.

and Image IPB to a Merrill and Carver hookup.....I think that's why I usually stay away from romancing her.....I want her for my brother! They'd be so totally cute.....poor Carver when he finds out that Merrill ain't as sweet and innocent as she seems.


Then why would she go for Carver since she has to make elven babies?


Well, she's been kicked out of her clan hasn't she? And she never really identifies with the alienage elves.


Right...and if she's always found females attractive...she can finally be free to pursue a relationship with one.

Rawgrim wrote...
It does take something away from playes (not you). It puts them in an unrealistic "situation" that is ruining the immersion of the gaming experience. Staingrey explained it very well in hisher post.


Wait, you were talking about replayability and now it's back to 'realism'?

twincast wrote...
Insinuating homophobia and/or privilege is what you were. But this isn't my battle to fight, so I'll drop it.


I was actually insinuating privilege if I must be honest.

Modifié par jlb524, 29 décembre 2011 - 07:44 .


#65
Rawgrim

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That wouldn`t bother me one bit, Medha. Its way better than everyone being bi.

#66
Rawgrim

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jlb524 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Jaulen wrote...

Merrill...I never really thought the Dalish would go for a same sex relationship....mainly for the whole having to procreate to carry on the lineage of the people.

and Image IPB to a Merrill and Carver hookup.....I think that's why I usually stay away from romancing her.....I want her for my brother! They'd be so totally cute.....poor Carver when he finds out that Merrill ain't as sweet and innocent as she seems.


Then why would she go for Carver since she has to make elven babies?


Well, she's been kicked out of her clan hasn't she? And she never really identifies with the alienage elves.


Right...and if she's always found females attractive...she can finally be free to pursue a relationship with one.

Rawgrim wrote...
It does take something away from playes (not you). It puts them in an unrealistic "situation" that is ruining the immersion of the gaming experience. Staingrey explained it very well in hisher post.


Wait, you were talking about replayability and now it's back to 'realism'?

twincast wrote...
Insinuating homophobia and/or privilege is what you were. But this isn't my battle to fight, so I'll drop it.


I was actually insinuating privilege if I must be honest.


I have been talking about replayability AND realism. I guess you missed that bit. Some posts may have been about one, and not the other. If you read through them, you would see that.

#67
jlb524

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Rawgrim wrote...

I have been talking about replayability AND realism. I guess you missed that bit. Some posts may have been about one, and not the other. If you read through them, you would see that.


Okay, so you want to make these romances super realistic even if it will potentially kill replayability for a lot of people that do romances?

#68
Rawgrim

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jlb524 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

I have been talking about replayability AND realism. I guess you missed that bit. Some posts may have been about one, and not the other. If you read through them, you would see that.


Okay, so you want to make these romances super realistic even if it will potentially kill replayability for a lot of people that do romances?


they don`t have to be super realistic, but they should at least be belivable, or make sense. By your reasoning: If Adolf Hitler was a love interest in the game, it would make perfect sense for him to romance a rabbi.

Restrictions with the romances in BG2 never killed the replayability for anyone. It just added more options when playing different characters in different playthroughs.

#69
yusuf060297

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Atakuma wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
No it doesn`t. It makes each playthrough different, depending on what kind of character you play.
Having Adolf Hitler being able to romance Anne Frank isn`t enhancing roleplaying in any way. its game breaking. This being a possebility just to add a possibility, is just dumb.

I am not talking about anything other than character sexuality. Having all romances be bisexual doesn't take anything away from you, but adds something for others, that is all I'm saying.


even though i see your point, i think most people (and me) wouldnt think that it would "add" something to the game because bioware didnt put any effort in it, they just removed the restrictions, i am gay and i dont like it when the characters are not reacting to it a bit and pretend like my pc is a women,  when you flirt the first time with someone i would like them to be confused (if they are straight) or even shoked,

it wasnt for example realistic when hawkes mother wasnt shoked at hawke to be gay, certainly in real life every mother would have something to say 

Modifié par yusuf060297, 29 décembre 2011 - 08:10 .


#70
alex90c

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how the hell did you invoke godwin's law in a ROMANCE thread?

#71
ReallyRue

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I understand why people wouldn't, based on the fact that it means hetero/homosexuals are being under-represented and such.

Personally, I like it. It adds choice, and it means that there are two options for a straight romance, and two for a gay romance. So both sides get choice. The set-up in DAO isn't any more realistic, because the games will not feature strictly gay companions. So in set-ups like DAO, only people playing gay characters lose out, while straight characters lose nothing. A straight male Warden can choose between Leliana and Morrigan, whilst a gay one can only choose Zevran. DA2 rectifies that to a degree.

#72
Rawgrim

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It wasn`t exactly Godwin`s Law. It was just using an extreme, to get out a point.

#73
jlb524

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Rawgrim wrote...
they don`t have to be super realistic, but they should at least be belivable, or make sense. By your reasoning: If Adolf Hitler was a love interest in the game, it would make perfect sense for him to romance a rabbi.


So then, where do you draw the line between what 'unrealistic' things are passable and what aren't?

Also, these romances are optional...I see no problem with the Hitler/rabbi romance being an 'optional' romance...if I don't like it/it doesn't make sense to me, I don't have to do it...if someone wants to do it for whatever reason...then more power to them.

Rawgrim wrote... 
Restrictions with the romances in BG2 never killed the replayability for anyone. It just added more options when playing different characters in different playthroughs.


It killed replayability for me (without mods).  It killed replayability for loads of heterosexual women who didn't like their one option (Anomen).  Luckily, there were more mods out there for them.

alex90c wrote...
how the hell did you invoke godwin's law in a ROMANCE thread?


He wasn't comparing my belief that all LIs should be open to both genders to a belief Hitler held...so no.

Modifié par jlb524, 29 décembre 2011 - 08:06 .


#74
Rawgrim

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jlb524 wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...
they don`t have to be super realistic, but they should at least be belivable, or make sense. By your reasoning: If Adolf Hitler was a love interest in the game, it would make perfect sense for him to romance a rabbi.


So then, where do you draw the line between what 'unrealistic' things are passable and what aren't?

Also, these romances are optional...I see no problem with the Hitler/rabbi romance being an 'optional' romance...if I don't like it/it doesn't make sense to me, I don't have to do it...if someone wants to do it for whatever reason...then more power to them.

Rawgrim wrote... 
Restrictions with the romances in BG2 never killed the replayability for anyone. It just added more options when playing different characters in different playthroughs.


The game was lacking when it comes to options for heterosexual women. Deffinatly. I am sure most women would have preffered someone else than Anomen as an option too. Valygar maybe?

I see your point about romances being optional. Sure. But in DA2 everyones bisexuality is kind of "in your face". So you are constantly reminded that everyone is bi.

It killed replayability for me (without mods).  It killed replayability for loads of heterosexual women who didn't like their one option (Anomen).  Luckily, there were more mods out there for them.



#75
jlb524

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How is everyone's DA2 bisexuality in your face?

Because of the heart icons?