922 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...
I'd prefer if that depended on their personality -- as some people may choose to stay away from someone already in relationship, some won't mind, and yet other will see that as personal challenge and a reason to actually get involved. Making them all behave in the same manner 'so the player doesn't get upset' is just another variant of the very thing i dislike to see in the NPCs.

Yes I don't understand why Leliana would be okay with the Warden romancing Alistair then dumping him before running to Zevran then dumping *him* before finally romancing her.

Morrigan? Maybe she'd see it as a challenge to dump the warden before he could dump her but Leliana? Meh.

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

And everyone that started the many complaint threads after the game launched.

And how many unique posters made that total? Go ahead and count -- if you arrive at more than a hundred i'll be surprised, and it'd still make a meaningless amount when you take into account both games sold millions of copies.

Then I wonder why those that choose to complain about lack of character integrity in DA2 because of the 'all bi thing' don't also complain about it in DA:O. 

Check earlier in this very thread, i believe we had this exact discussion already.

If you see a fair amount of threads complaining about the DA:O elf ear size but ignoring the fact that this same issue is also with the DA2 elves how would you react to that?

Since we don't witness this situation actually happen, i think it demonstrates your theoretical analogy to be false.

On the other hand we do see complaints about things that were changed in the elf design. Quite a bit of that. Does this surprise you just as much as you're surprised by the fact people may complain about the change to the romance system?

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...
Since we don't witness this situation actually happen, i think it demonstrates your theoretical analogy to be false.

On the other hand we do see complaints about things that were changed in the elf design. Quite a bit of that. Does this surprise you just as much as you're surprised by the fact people may complain about the change to the romance system?

I don't care if it happens or not...what do you think about that situation if it did happen?

I don't have an issue with complaining about the romance system but the reasons given for it.

To say, I don't like the change in the elven design because of the nose bridge is one thing.

To say, I don't like the change in the elven design because their ears are significantly larger than humans is another....because that was also an issue in DA:O.

Modifié par jlb524, 06 janvier 2012 - 01:13 .

[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here.

Those factors I mentioned can possibly affect another's attractiveness towards the PC.

Does it make sense that someone like Leliana, who is reluctant to enter a relationship after getting her heart broken, would be so willing to jump into one with my Dalish Male Warden who:

1)  Mocked all of her religious beliefs.
2)  Made out with every female he could in front of her (and the others).
3)  Killed people for the lulz.
4)  Hopped into bed with both Zevran and Morrigan as often as he could.

But she can totally learn to dig him if he buys her a lot of presents.  

Sylvianus wrote... 
It isn't because in other way, because of the mehanics the characters are less reactive, i want it happens to in this area. If I can avoid it.

We are talking about they are all bi, here, I think. So what you are saying is irrelevant, if i can i avoid the system that  I see as less reactive, i won't choose it. That seems obivous.

They were never reactive to begin with (see my example above).  The didn't even 'react' to your gender in order to turn you down...you couldn't even approach them.  

What I'm not saying is irrelevant...if you were okay with the DA:O way and all the possible absurd offenses to character integrity then what is the issue with DA2?  DA2 actually improved that in some areas (no gift spamming, crazy bed-hopping hijinks, two romance paths that are a bit more reactive to how your PC interacts with the LI).

but All what you said, Leliana disapproves. So i am not sure how her integrity is disturbed.  That's a way to react to your act, that's a way to show that it isn't just a Pc without desires. It's a game, so it wasn't perfect, it's like you'd believe that we don't know it's a game in the same time. there are mechanics in a game and it's beyond our control, Bioware won't never do a romance which is flawless. Leliana wasn't indifferent at all. If you bed with another one, she argues with you. Leliana always reacted to your bad actions. ( less when she is hardened )

Gifts, is a flawled system, again, it's insignificant, that is about the mechanics, a feature ( bad ), and not integrity. The writting isn't concerned. the desecration of the ashes of Andraste, if you do not convince her, she will try to stop you. The gift system won't change this fact. That's what I don't understand at all with your point. You want to mix everything..; I simply focus in an area...

The vision of the author was still respected, Leliana is what she is, and in the same time the game must be a game. I never said that one system was perfect. Because actually it's impossible that it is perfect.


Otherwise, i am not sure what you are talking about.   Leliana and zevran, did react to what gender I choose. Or then you didn't choose the good lines. Allistair, reacts to a woman, and differently from a man, ' the bro '

Otherwise, what' s my issue ? I think you already read it, you have already your opinion about it, so I think no.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 janvier 2012 - 01:19 .

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes I don't understand why Leliana would be okay with the Warden romancing Alistair then dumping him before running to Zevran then dumping *him* before finally romancing her.

This is going to be just personal interpretation, but i think Leliana is kind of person who gets more enamoured with the idea of being in mad romantic love. She'd probably could easily tell to herself (and actually believe in) something along the lines of "oh, that love wasn't meant to be. And that next one, it wasn't meant to be, either. But this one, with me, it's totally like we're star-crossed lovers that found each other because it was meant to be".

A hopeless romantic or someone who very skillfully played the role of one. But given her earlier relationship with Marjolaine, the fallout of it and the fact you can 'harden' her personality in DAO, i'm inclined to see it as more of the former.

[Abispa]

blothulfur wrote...

No. Mating should be decided by the tamassran, there should be none of this romance vashedan. Love the Qun, do not indulge in the wasteful foolishness of hormones and lust.

I don't know about you, dude, but that Tamassran guy, like, totally keeps kicking my foot underneath the stall in the men's room.

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...
This is going to be just personal interpretation, but i think Leliana is kind of person who gets more enamoured with the idea of being in mad romantic love. She'd probably could easily tell to herself (and actually believe in) something along the lines of "oh, that love wasn't meant to be. And that next one, it wasn't meant to be, either. But this one, with me, it's totally like we're star-crossed lovers that found each other because it was meant to be".

A hopeless romantic or someone who very skillfully played the role of one. But given her earlier relationship with Marjolaine, the fallout of it and the fact you can 'harden' her personality in DAO, i'm inclined to see it as more of the former.

That actually fits. Sad but it fits. What about Alistair? 

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
but All what you said, Leliana disapproves. So i am not sure how her integrity is disturbed. 

I can still romance her...just go buy some nice gifts or say what I know she wants to hear.  My point is, it shouldn't even be an option for her after that.  Realistically, doing certain things should just shut the romance off for good.

Sylvianus wrote... 
The vision of the author was still respected, Leliana is what she is,
 

I don't think she is when I can romance her with my goody elf who treats her like a queen and then also turn around and romance her with an a-hole that lies at the right time and buys gifts....and she treats both of those characters the same and the romance plays out the same. 

Sylvianus wrote...  
and in the same time the game must be a game. I never said that one system was perfect. Because actually it's impossible that it is perfect.

Right...but you can't give any leeway to the 'bisexual' thing?  

It is a game that emphasizes options and there are those that would like options that have typically been denied to them.

Sylvianus wrote...   
Otherwise, i am not sure what you are talking about.   Leliana and zevran, did react to what gender I choose.

Barring a few different lines, the romances were pretty much the same for both genders.

Sylvianus wrote...    
Or then you didn't choose the good lines. Allistair, reacts to a woman, and differently from a man, ' the bro '

Most of his lines are the same too in spite of gender (and race and all that)...but I can't call Alistair 'handsome' if I'm playing a guy though even if I wanted to do that.

Modifié par jlb524, 06 janvier 2012 - 01:28 .

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

I don't care if it happens or not...what do you think about that situation if it did happen?

I think it's illogical *and* not like what we're discussing, as evidenced by the fact it doesn't actually happen while what we are discussing is happening.

I don't have an issue with complaining about the romance system but the reasons given for it.

To say, I don't like the change in the elven design because of the nose bridge is one thing.

To say, I don't like the change in the elven design because their ears are significantly larger than humans is another....because that was also an issue in DA:O.

Yes, which once again demonstrates you have issue with your own false interpretation of the situation, rather than with the situation itself as others see it.

The "elf ear" equivalent of this situation would be if people complained that elf ears were made even bigger than they already were. And your mistake (or choice, since you insist on making it despite being repeatedly told it's incorrect) is to use the previous lack of complaints as evidence that those ears were before the perfect size, or even acceptable. While it can very well just mean with the most recent change they were made so big it made some people actually start voicing their complaints about it.

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

That actually fits. Sad but it fits. What about Alistair? 

Hmm that's tougher. It could be the 'puppy love' sort of thing -- Alistair doesn't seem to have much experience with love. It's possible the Warden is first person he actually falls for and it's a "as long as i get to be with them in the end, all that's before is "forgiven"' way of thinking. But i think it's Mr.Gaider who can really tackle this one.

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

That actually fits. Sad but it fits. What about Alistair? 

Hmm that's tougher. It could be the 'puppy love' sort of thing -- Alistair doesn't seem to have much experience with love. It's possible the Warden is first person he actually falls for and it's a "as long as i get to be with them in the end, all that's before is "forgiven"' way of thinking. But i think it's Mr.Gaider who can really tackle this one.

And Zev? Odd how he goes "I'm not a cheat." once you hit a certain level but until then sleeping with him and Morrigan at the same time is perfectly okay.

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...
I think it's illogical *and* not like what we're discussing, as evidenced by the fact it doesn't actually happen while what we are discussing is happening.

People can complain about things that are illogical.  It does happen.

tmp7704 wrote... 
The "elf ear" equivalent of this situation would be if people complained that elf ears were made even bigger than they already were. And your mistake (or choice, since you insist on making it despite being repeatedly told it's incorrect) is to use the previous lack of complaints as evidence that those ears were before the perfect size, or even acceptable. While it can very well just mean with the most recent change they were made so big it made some people actually start voicing their complaints about it.

But some people aren't complaining that the DA2 romances made 'lack of character integrity' worse than it already was because they don't see that as a problem with DA:O and they also like to ignore the ways that DA2 made these issues better with changes to the romance structure.

I do get your point and understand that some feel that way but I also get the impression that the issue for some is sexuality and not character integrity.  If you want to fix the system then fix it in other areas and not just go back on the sexuality thing and keep the other ways this system fails miserably as far as 'character integrity' goes.

Modifié par jlb524, 06 janvier 2012 - 01:54 .

[Abispa]

The WRITERS of DA2 made the LIs (except Sebastian) "bi." It was THEIR vision to cater to players who play s/s romances AND players who play o/s romances. And not all s/s players are gay. I know several guys who play "lesbian" heroes, and am living with a woman who plays "gay" heroes. I'm sure there are straight people who may want to take advantage of s/s options for RPG purposes (you know, players who LIKE playing characters who are not like the player), just as gay players have played games with NO s/s options for years.

It is not up to s/s supporters to justify a decision that has already been made. It it now up to s/s critics to justify why the writers shouldn't continue using the system that THEY implemented and should now cater to fans who want gender and gay exclusive LIs set up by a still-not-"realistic" quota system.

Modifié par Abispa, 06 janvier 2012 - 01:56 .

[DOYOURLABS]

Abispa wrote...

The WRITERS of DA2 made the LIs (except Sebastian) "bi." It was THEIR vision to cater to players who play s/s romances AND players who play o/s romances. And not all s/s players are gay. I know several guys who play "lesbian" heroes, and am living with a woman who plays "gay" heroes. I'm sure there are straight people who may want to take advantage of s/s options for RPG purposes (you know, players who LIKE playing characters who are not like the player), just as gay players have played games with NO s/s options for years.

It is not up to s/s supporters to justify a decision that has already been made. It it now up to s/s critics to justify why the writers shouldn't continue using the system that THEY implemented to now cater to fans who want to be catered to with gender and gay exclusive LIs set up by a still-not-"realistic" quota system.

This

[jlb524]

Abispa wrote...
It is not up to s/s supporters to justify a decision that has already been made. It it now up to s/s critics to justify why the writers shouldn't continue using the system that THEY implemented to now cater to fans who want to be catered to with gender and gay exclusive LIs set up by a still-not-"realistic" quota system.

Good point.

[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...
 snip the stuff

everybody already said that DAO wasn't perfect, need to be improved. The gift system, I already said months ago that it was a joke, It didn't forbid me to say that I was facepalmed with that, as i was facepalmed with DA2 romance. DAO was my first bioware game, I discovered everything, so basically, it was hard to complain. I am more aware about the dragon age 's issue today.  And that's not because i saw a system that wasn't the best, i didn't complain, that I can't complain when I see something less good to my eyes.

And no, Leliana does't treat the same with a male and a female, more difficult for a male. There are some lines you need to choice to interest her. I needed to search on wikipedia to find the solution, while with a female, that was easy and now. You have to compliment her, while with a woman, that's her that  begins to act. That's why besides for me, she is more interested in women even if she is bi. I apreciated to see that difference. Doesn't mean that it was important, but I did think, it was a good job;

And sorry, but Leliana, seems really in love and passionate, I could totally see her, to remain with the warden despite all those factors.

Otherwise, yes there were only some lines, but it can be totally improved, romance aren't fixed exactly like DAO.  I'll fail to see how the bi system will evolve. The principle is that no gender is taken into account, so this word, hawk sexual. That seems still bland, if I do several playthrought.

Right...but you can't give any leeway to the 'bisexual' thing? 

It is a game that emphasizes options and there are those that would like options that have typically been denied to them.

Seriously. What do you expect from me? Do I have the right to think that this system is worse, or no ? I never said I was going to die, if they do it again. If that is there, that's there. But I'm allowed to think differently, according to what I view ? Maybe ? That doesn't mean that I am not aware what other want. But the problem is that like you, I don't understand. If it was about the gay people will have less LI, I would shut up in this case. Because there, there is no point , I am forced to support them.

But if there aren't more LI for any gender, etc, I am free to think there is something else.

And if the all bi system means " share content, just choose one of them ", yes I can't stand It.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 janvier 2012 - 02:07 .

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...

The WRITERS of DA2 made the LIs (except Sebastian) "bi." It was THEIR vision to cater to players who play s/s romances AND players who play o/s romances. And not all s/s players are gay. I know several guys who play "lesbian" heroes, and am living with a woman who plays "gay" heroes. I'm sure there are straight people who may want to take advantage of s/s options for RPG purposes (you know, players who LIKE playing characters who are not like the player), just as gay players have played games with NO s/s options for years.

It is not up to s/s supporters to justify a decision that has already been made. It it now up to s/s critics to justify why the writers shouldn't continue using the system that THEY implemented and should now cater to fans who want gender and gay exclusive LIs set up by a still-not-"realistic" quota system.

Point.

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
everybody already said that DAO wasn't perfect, need to improved. The gift system, I already said months ago that it was a joke, It didn't forbid me to say that I was facepalmed with that, as i was facepalmed with DA2 romance. DAO was my first bioware game, I discovered everything, so basically, it was hard to complain. I am more aware about the dragon age 's issue today.  And that's not because i saw a system that wasn't the best, i didn't complain, that I can't complain when I see something less good to my eyes.

That's fine...hopefully if they do improve the system they do more than just gender checks and add limits in a few areas.

Sylvianus wrote... 
And no, Leliana does't treat the same with a male and a female, more difficult for a male. There are some lines you need to choice to interest her. I needed to search on wikipedia to find the solution, while with a female, that was easy and now. You have to compliment her, while with a woman, that's her that  begins to act. That's why besides for me, she is more interested in women even if she is bi. I apreciated to see that difference. Doesn't mean that it was important, but I did think, it was a good job;

There are differences (as there are differences in the DA2 romances).  Keep in mind that DA:O had double the dev time of DA2 so there's simply more romance dialog period in DA:O.  

Sylvianus wrote...  
And sorry, but Leliana, seems really in love and passionate, I could totally see her, to remain with the warden despite all those.

No, I'm saying she shouldn't even get that far with some Wardens.  She shouldn't fall in love and the romance just shouldn't happen.

Sylvianus wrote...   
Otherwise, yes there were only some lines, but it can be totally improved, romance aren't fixed exactly like DAO.  I'll fail to see how the bi system will evolve. The principle is that no gender is taken into account, so this word, hawk sexual. That seems still bland, if I do several playthrought.

The 'bi system' is a result of a general 'open system' that BW employs.  If you want more reactive and restrictive romances, then the bi system won't work...and neither will the DA:O system...they have to re-work their entire design philosophy for these things.  Will they do it?  I doubt it.

Sylvianus wrote...    
Seriously. What do you expect from me? Do I have the right to think that this system is worse, or no ? I never said I was going to die, if they do it again. If that is there, that's there. But I'm allowed to think differently, according to what I view ? Maybe ? That doesn't mean that I am not aware what other want. But the problem is that like you, I don't understand. If it was about the gay people won't have less LI, I would shut up in this case. Because there, there is no point , I am forced to support them.

But if there aren't more LI for any gender, etc, I am free to think there is something else.

And if the all bi system means " share content, just choose one of them ", yes I can't stand It.

But again, it's not the 'bi system' but the general 'open system'.  If you have issues with any PC being able to choose any LI, then you'd support a system that would place all kinds of limitations on the PC, right? ....even if your canon or idealized Warden couldn't even romance the person he/she wanted to.  

I don't know, have you ever been denied choice of your LI in a BW game where you were playing your 'ideal' PC?  I have.

[Sylvianus]

And any supporter, any gamer, any customer can give its opinion, that's why this forum is there, we talk about in this topic; You are here to give your thoughts, and nothing you could say is wrong, if it just your perception.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 janvier 2012 - 02:10 .

[jlb524]

Sylvianus wrote...
And any supporter, any gamer, any customer can give its opinion, that's why this forum is there, we talk about in this topic; You are here to give your thoughts, and nothing you could say is wrong, if it just your perception.

Agreed...I'm just trying to understand your issues.

Sometimes it felt as if you wanted to say that the 'bi system' was the biggest crime against integrity and those that support it don't care about such things at all.  That hits a nerve with me because it's not fundamentally different from how BW has always done things.

Then sometimes it seemed like you agreed that DA:O sucked as well in those areas.  Supporting more reactive romances is fine (even though I don't really agree that they are necessary) but only caring about such when it comes to sexuality is not okay to me.

I do care about character integrity.  For example, I wouldn't be thrilled if Zevran became a monk and took a vow of celibacy in DA3.  How these characters act outside of romance is just more important to me than which type of PC they are wlling to bed.

Modifié par jlb524, 06 janvier 2012 - 02:20 .

[Carmen_Willow]

I do not understand what the fuss is about. Bioware wrote the dialogue for Fenris, Merrill and Anders so that if you wanted them to be "straight" they said nothing to contradict that. If you wanted them to be gay they said nothing to contradict that, and you got some extra dialogue for Anders. Only Isabela was openly--through dialogue--bisexual.

In my Dragon Age universe this allowed me to think of my LI as gay, straight or bi as I chose (with the "Isabela" exception). What's not to like? Everyone could see their LI the way they wanted to see them.

Now, if all the characters practiced the "Isabela" rule, I would not be as happy. I like being able to rp all three options. I don't want to be limited to "bisexual."

[In Exile]

jlb524 wrote...
Then I wonder why those that choose to complain about lack of character integrity in DA2 because of the 'all bi thing' don't also complain about it in DA:O. 

If the concern is actually character integrity (by which we mean consistency) then part of the answer is this: in DA:O the character was preserved. Leliana was always bi. And so was Zevran. And so is Isabella, at that.

There's is a difference between a character being bisexual, and a character being attractive to the player character independent of gender.

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Then I wonder why those that choose to complain about lack of character integrity in DA2 because of the 'all bi thing' don't also complain about it in DA:O. 

If the concern is actually character integrity (by which we mean consistency) then part of the answer is this: in DA:O the character was preserved. Leliana was always bi. And so was Zevran. And so is Isabella, at that.

There's is a difference between a character being bisexual, and a character being attractive to the player character independent of gender.

So wait...how is one a 'bisexual' character?

Why isn't Fenris or Merrill a bisexual character?

[maxernst]

In Exile wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Then I wonder why those that choose to complain about lack of character integrity in DA2 because of the 'all bi thing' don't also complain about it in DA:O. 

There's is a difference between a character being bisexual, and a character being attractive to the player character independent of gender.

Of course, that also means that Alistair and Morrigan may always have been bisexual as well.  All we know is that during the time span of the game, they don't express a sexual interest in the same sex that we know of. Hardly conclusive proof of their sexuality. 

More importantly, we had no way of knowing whether Anders was straight or bi in Awakening, so there's no inconsistency from game to game.  And I don't see a need for consistency between different playthroughs of the same game; the character's behavior need only be internally consistent.

I

Modifié par maxernst, 06 janvier 2012 - 02:56 .

[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...

But again, it's not the 'bi system' but the general 'open system'.  If you have issues with any PC being able to choose any LI, then you'd support a system that would place all kinds of limitations on the PC, right? ....even if your canon or idealized Warden couldn't even romance the person he/she wanted to.  

I don't know, have you ever been denied choice of your LI in a BW game where you were playing your 'ideal' PC?  I have.

I only played Mass effect and DAO, i do not play rpgs in general, Skyrim 's romance are too bland, to be appreciated. But no. Well, with the system I like, a woman who is gay and that could be totally a new Morrigan, and I fall in love, obviously, I would feel that, and to be honest it would be nothing for me. I don't see the same thing as you. I could be like, oooh you aren't interested in mens ? I am just curious, say more about that. That's it. Because that's about the character, not my choice.

It seems that we haven't the same thought, we have different perspectives. For me, romance aren't there to be first to satisfy the players, there are there because it adds more to the characters, it adds more to the world and the story. I don't like them because the romance can resolve around my PC, even if it could be already the case. That isn't for that, that I like the romance, I have already my life to apreciate that stuff , If I can't have a character, I don't see it as something negative. that's the way the story is, like in a real world. I play a female in another playthought, and I imagine an adventure, a romance with this character,  still thinking that she is gay, ( yes I won't try to think that she is straight, because she isn't according to the story and I respect that )

really, it seems that we have not the same kind of thoughts and i begin to understand why it is so difficult to understand each other.... But that doesn't mean that I am not aware what other think. I am well aware, that for you, Li are first options and only that, matters. Believe me, i would love so much to feel that... and actually would be happy to be just satisfied with anything. I try to change my mind, but... I played this game and that was bad ( to me, to each its opinion )

Like I said, if it there for the next game, I will shut up, and if it as bad as DA2, I will shut up. Because I won't die. It's just something, that I feel I won't like....

To be honest, if the all bi sexual makes sense... We'll see.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 janvier 2012 - 02:58 .