922 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

tmp7704 wrote...
I don't have solid concept of Zevran regarding these matters --as i put the character who was planned to romance him on hold-- but it seems he is (somewhat) similar to Isabela in the sense he makes a distinction between casual sex and sex that happens between people who have deep romantic feelings for each other. Until he falls in love he just thinks you're a good booty call, so to speak, and imagines that's how you view that as well.

Although i have no idea what he may think about the relationship you're having with Morrigan at the same time -- either he thinks that's a fling of yours too, or he figures if you want to have some elf sex on the side, then it's your problem and not his?

But he still says that even when he's only at interested and Morrigan/Leliana/Alistair's approval got a little too high.

Yet he's perfectly okay with being a femPC's lover on the side when she's married to Alistair [as long as Alistair isn't at the level where he'll force a conflict] (or a male PCs lover on the side when he's married to Anora).

Meh.

[maxernst]

In Exile wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Merrill doesn't express interest in anyone outside of Hawke...how do we know her sexuality and if it's fluctuating?

If you as an individual want to believe that she's straight when you play as a Male Hawke and romance her and then believe that she's a lesbian when you play as a Female Hawke romance then that's fine.

You're thinking about it wrong. I'm not approaching this as 'in-game'. I'm approaching this from the meta-game PoV. It's not that Merill (like, say, Isabella) is a character who happens to be bisexual but doesn't speak about her sexual orientation. It's that she was designed to be romanceable by both genders. That's my issue, and I already made that clear to you when we last talked.

I don't have a problem with either highly restrictive romances or 100% permissive romances, so long as these result from how the character was designed and not merely as an auxilliary to provide an extra feature to the player.

The difference between these characters and Isabela is that with Isabela, you can't get away with interpreting her in-game sexuality as anything but bisexual.  She makes it obvious that she likes males and females.  Within a given playthrough, you don't know what gender Merrill possibly likes unless you romance her and I don't think that necessarily means that she couldn't ever fall for the other sex either.  That doesn't mean that if my Female Hawke who romanced her dies, Merrill couldn't possibly hook up with a male later on....I don't know what she feels about men...but if I wanted to interpret her as a lesbian with what I know then that's possible.

It has nothing to do with any playthrough. As I said, my issue is different.

maxernst wrote...

I'm not making a heteronormative assumption. You are, because you're assuming, for one, that I happen to think either of these characters have a sexual orientation at all. A

You must assume they have an orientation, because something that doesn't exist can't fluctuate.  And unless you designed the character yourself, it is impossible for you to know how she was designed.  It's merely your interpretation that she was designed to provide an extra feature for the player.  What evidence do you have for the claim that she's not a character who happens to be bisexual but doesn't speak about her sexual orientation?  How would she be any different?

  In any case, I don't consider meta-game points of view to be relevant.  It wouldn't bother me in the slightest (actually it would add spice to the game) if the characters behaved differently in different playthroughs.

Modifié par maxernst, 06 janvier 2012 - 02:50 .

[jlb524]

In Exile wrote...
I don't mean that the NPC should be gay. I mean that we should have something like the Bastilla romance, but with a female PC (or the Carth romance with a male PC). I know you're going to say it would have amounted to the same thing if KoTOR just removed the gender restrictions, but I think there's something important about the statement that this character happenst to be gay and it's totally irrelevant to everything about the character.

Ah yes, I do agree with that.

maxernst wrote...
It's merely your interpretation that she was designed to provide an extra feature for the player.  What evidence do you have for the claim that she's not a character who happens to be bisexual but doesn't speak about her sexual orientation?  How would she be any different?

Thinking about this more, I'd say Leliana was also desgined more as a feature than designed to be bisexual.

Having at least one f/f LI in each BW has been a feature for some time so I think Leliana's romance was just as desinged to be open to males and females as was Merrill's.

I'd actually say that any romance is a desinged feature for the player.  You can say Morrigan was designed to be a romance feature for male Wardens more than being designed as an actual character who has certain tastes in men.

Modifié par jlb524, 06 janvier 2012 - 05:28 .

[In Exile]

maxernst wrote...
You must assume they have an orientation, because something that doesn't exist can't fluctuate.

No, I don't.

I don't have to sit down and say "Merril is naturally a lesbian" to say that "Merril in this playthrough is designed to be attracted to a female PC" and "Merril in this playthrough is designed to be attracted to a male PC".

Something can fluctuate without having a natural state.

edit:

Here's an example. The gender of every PC in a Bioware game. That gender can flip. Does that mean I have to assume the Warden (for example) is naturally a male or female for it to be possible for the Warden to be one or the other in any given playthrough? Of course not. The gender of the PC is just a thing in flux, and it's nonsese to say that it's the "right way" for it to be one way or another.

And unless you designed the character yourself, it is impossible for you to know how she was designed. 

The people designing him or her saying, this is exactly the way we designed it is usually pretty good proof.

It's merely your interpretation that she was designed to provide an extra feature for the player.  What evidence do you have for the claim that she's not a character who happens to be bisexual but doesn't speak about her sexual orientation?  How would she be any different?

Because, again, that's how she was designed. Like I have just explained. Seriously. In the post above that, the devs were the one that spoke about the conscious decision to make every romance available to both genders as to cater to the players.

In any case, I don't consider meta-game points of view to be relevant.  It wouldn't bother me in the slightest (actually it would add spice to the game) if the characters behaved differently in different playthroughs.

Good for you. How is that in any way relevant to what I think? 

jlb524 wrote...
Thinking about this more, I'd say Leliana was also desgined more as a feature than designed to be bisexual.

It's true that her male romance is off compared to her female romance, but I always got the impression that Leliana was just a bisexual girl who prefered girls.

And to be honest, if all these characters just have tacked on romances like this, I would prefer they be cut entirely.

Having
at least one f/f LI in each BW has been a feature for some time so I
think Leliana's romance was just as desinged to be open to males and
females as was Merrill's.

It's been a feature since JE, which also had an M/M romance. In fact, the only games that sort of had an S/S romance were ME1 and ME2 exclusively with Liara.

I'd actually say that any romance is a
desinged feature for the player.  You can say Morrigan was designed to
be a romance feature for male Wardens more than being designed as an
actual character who has certain tastes in men.

You could, but there's certainly no evidence for it. Any more than there is that Alistair was designed to be a romance feature for female Wardens.

Modifié par In Exile, 06 janvier 2012 - 06:07 .

[ScotGaymer]

Exile.

The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.

In other words - just because there isn't any evidence that Merill was originally (and always was) bisexual doesnt mean that she isnt or wasnt intended to be bisexual from the start. Or that her bisexuality is only a "fanservice gimmick".

There is little evidence either way so really you guys are arguing over perception and opinion; and we all know what those are worth lol.

[jlb524]

I think the existence of these type of romances themselves is proof.

It's not as if they design all the characters first and then decide who would make sense to be romanceable and what type of PC they would want to romance and then create the romance from that (with the various restrictions decided upon based on the character they wrote). In this case, hypothetically, none of the party members may fit as a romance so there would be no LIs for that specific game.

It seems they decide to include X amount of LIs and then decide which ones will fit the role and design the romance around that...the 'must have romance feature' is still driving it.

[vania z]

Thats bad practice. Not everyone should be bisexual.

[Sylvianus]

jlb524 wrote...
Well, I admit that I tend to unfairly generalize.  But I also appreciate it when people engage in the discussion with me instead of making pretty vapid comments about 'bisexuals ruining everything!!' when they don't even try to back up the comments with reasoning.

I shouldn't generalize, but it's tough when faced with a crap ton of comments like this...which is a human weakness I suppose XD

If I've been difficult, I apologize. 

Well, It is easier for some people ( like me )to answer some questions if they do not feel they are oppressed by a form of trial, or that they could be hurted whatever what they say, or the person has already decided that whatever what they say, that's wrong, especially in such hot topics where we can be easily accused of anything.

In this case, offended, the person will simply become more radical, won't try to discuss anymore, ( human too lol ) and without discussion, nobody can convince the other or at least understand. ( I understand better your view now )

Yesterday you seemed less difficult and I felt I could talk to you. I understand hence all what you feel comes from however.

maxernst wrote...

It seems that we haven't the same thought, we have different perspectives. For me, romance aren't there to be first to satisfy the players, there are there because it adds more to the characters, it adds more to the world and the story.

But if the romance adds to the characters and adds to the world and story, limiting the romances more means that players have less ability to see other sides of the characters.  People have complained in the Anders romance in DA2 that if you don't romance him as a male, you never hear about a former relationship which some people as key to understanding his behavior.

On the other hand, one thing I did like about DA2 was being rejected by Aveline.  Even though she was not available as a romance, it was nice that a Hawke who fell for her could at least try to  express his feelings.  DA:O doesn't allow a male character to do that with Alistair, and ME didn't allow a male Shepard to express an interest in ANY male.  (Although Kaidan was apparently supposed to be bi at some point.  And being flat-out rejected for being an elf or being a mage would actually help to support the world and story.

Yes, but actually it has nothing to do with the restrictions. Bioware should just find a way to allow deepening the knowledge of the characters and friendship path, regardless of the romance. I don't know if Mass Effect 3 will try, but they were already aware of this problem with M2.  I don't think that it's the same issue.

I also enjoyed with Aveline. I loved seeing that she loved someone else and I could be rejected.

However, I found that the implementation was not really good. The problem of Aveline, is not that she denies us
It's that she simply ignores the words of Hawk, as if she was not aware that he/ she loved her. This
 bothered me. But I loved this principle.

And I see your point, with Allistar, well that stuff wouldn't bother me at all. I can agree with that.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 06 janvier 2012 - 08:45 .

[maxernst]

@InExile

I think I just have to start ignoring your posts because it always breaks down in semantics.  Your use of language is unintelligible to me.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Bottom line it was designed to appeal to the largest percentage of the intended players. It is supposed to please the majority of the demographic groups Boiware/EA was targeting for sales at the release of the game - that's all, no big complicated hullabaloo. Thus a few characters are straight a few play better as gay, and most are unspecified, undecided until you decide for them.

[tmp7704]

Ryzaki wrote...

But he still says that even when he's only at interested and Morrigan/Leliana/Alistair's approval got a little too high.

Yeah that doesn't make too much sense (or, alternatively, it just means my interpretation of his character is off)

His reaction could be a reason of the code responsible for it being simple (like, triggering on condition there's any level of romantic interest for Zevran rather than once his 'romantic' approval is high enough) but it's impossible to tell whether that's simplified coding breaking character's intended personality as an oversight, or if this simple coding is actually a result of what his personality is supposed to be like, and so "working as intended".

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 janvier 2012 - 11:34 .

[Russalka]

I suddenly realised what a weird thing this is to argue about.

[Abispa]

simfamSP wrote...

Russalka wrote...

I suddenly realised what a weird thing this is to argue about.

And arguing about if a fictional character's existance isn't? We are all nerds here, and it brings us closer together... in a way

[Ryzaki]

*dies*

That's hilarious.

[Plaintiff]

vania z wrote...

Thats bad practice. Not everyone should be bisexual.

Not everyone is.

[Estelindis]

I like the DA2-style "all bi-" romances, where it seems to be reactive to how the player treats them (for the most part). Minimal gender-based exclusion FTW. (Of course, some characters should choose not to romance the PC based on the PC's actions, but that's different.)

I would contrast this with the idea of starting some characters as only interested in one sex in one installment of a series and then, later, due to fan demand, opening them up to both sexes. I don't mind at all if it's all-bi from the start, but I feel that a whole load of sudden changes of heart would be a bit cheap from a writing point of view. I'm hoping this doesn't happen in ME3.

Anyway, DA2 style seems ideal. ;-)

[Kidd]

Estelindis wrote...

Anyway, DA2 style seems ideal. ;-)

Quite agreed =) As someone who is gender blind when it comes to attraction myself, I feel 100% at home with DA2 and it feels a lot less weird than how... everything else is, really x) I guess to a lot of people that means it feels unrealistic, but to me it feels more realistic and I can understand it better than real life any way.

I've roleplayed several Hawkes who don't have the same feelings on sexuality as I do, but I can simply emulate hetero-, bi- and homosexuality by cherry picking when I do or do not select the heart responses. Easy peasy, my character will never say or do anything I do not want them to and all the interactions stay consistent and good =)

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 08 janvier 2012 - 06:24 .

[Game_Fan_85]

vania z wrote...

Thats bad practice. Not everyone should be bisexual.

I don't know why people keep interperating it this way.  As far as I am concerned, I look at it as if Hawke is Male, Anders and Ferris are gay and  Merril is straight and vice versa.  The only real "bisexual" character I can see is Isabella.  I still think that too many male "dudebro" morons in the world had a fictional game character slightly come on to their equally fictional game character (to which they could say "no thanks" and it would be over) and they couldn't handle it.  I NEVER saw anyone complaining about the Female characters being "bi" from the general gaming public when the game was released, funny that, isin't it? <_<

Anyway, back to the topic, I love what BioWare did in DA2 and I hope it is a feature in all their games from now on!  To say it was a feature "because the game was rushed" is beyond stupid to me.  It was so rushed that characters have different dialogue based on Male or Female Hawke <_<  I think that after the reation to Origins and the amount of Male players that wanted Alistair to be an option for their male Warden (hell that's why I bought the PC version!) and the amount of Male and Female players that wanted Morrigan to be available to their Female Warden, they were simply reacting to their fans and giving them what they want.  Why else would Sheppard FINALLY be going gay in ME3?  Isn't that what BioWare does?  Listen to their fans?

[Huntress]

"2) If there is no difference between the sexes. I mean, I get it, people are people and genitals don't matter when it comes to love, yada yada. But no one can honestly tell me that, both physically and vocally, a bi person never treats women differently than men, and vice versa. If we have the option of romancing the same character with either a male or a female PC, then I expect differences (if only subtle) between those encounters. I also expect that LI to give signs that he/she is bi regardless of us romancing him/her, so that it doesn't come off as a straight guy going gay for just my PC. Once again, it feels as though it's betraying the character."

2)The Character is not betraying anything none are just gay/lesbian they are Bi, means they can bed both sexes and still act like any normal person in DA. You're character is the gay or lesbian if it goes after the same sex relations however.

Yes I have 2 lesb hawke's and 2 straight hawkes..  Who I like the most? mm I like hawke-Fenris alot and I like hawke-isabela too!

"3) If there is no social implication. Look at it this way: In DAII, Hawke can be a lesbian, right? So, her entire family dies off minus one or possibly two people. Wouldn't there be some sort of consequence in the eyes of Kirkwall for the last of the Champion's line to not be able to have a blood heir? Who would inherit the estate? Wouldn't there be people fighting for Hawke's blessings in the very likely chance she dies in battle? Why is everyone indifferent to the fact that their Champion chose to knock boots with a Dalish elf living in the alienage with all the social prowess of a plank of wood? If Hawke is so famous, why does NOBODY have an opinion on her love life?."

Answer:
Carver Hawke had a relation with someone in Lothering, not sure if he  impregnated her or not, she certanly writes to him to re-mind him of it,  hawke's uncle amell has a daughter.
If all the hawke's died for any reason the house+money+ Titles goes  directly to uncle. if uncles dies and not one reclame the property.. it would be sold.
Nobody care if the champion is gay / lesbian or if is an elf lover because.. a crazy zealot is rulling the city and every mage of any rank of Kirkwall society is getting killed/raped or turn into walking idiots. Not one has time to look for someone also Crap when some of it are hitting them in their very face.
You want reallity? there is freaking reallity, when **** hit you're way you don't have time to check for someone also ****.

"DAII's romances built individual character interaction, but that was about it. There was so much more that could have been done with eah and every one, and much like the rest of the game, it just fell short. LI's, to me, are a huge waste of potential. Remember the camp in DA:O, when Morrigan and Wynn had very vibrant opinions on your relationship with Leliana? I cracked up when Morrigan bluntly told me (with disgust) that I "wouldn't stop smiling", and I felt an emotional obligation to stand up for Leliana when Wynn questioned whether it was wise to be with her. That never really happened in DAII, outside of some isabela banter that never extended beyond sex jokes."

The game was short in general and defending you're relations.. it happens few times, varric comes to you for 2 of you're choices and Anders comes for the other 2 choices. .. wierd huh? lol.

"Anyway, point is, the "bisexual" part of the romance shouldn't be the hot topic. The implementation of the entire LI, regardless of orientation, should. If Anders is only straight but that straight relationship can be more fleshed out, then I'll take it. If Anders is now bi but each side of the romance gets its due, then I'll take that. Compromising one or the other just to please a minor amount of heavily invested fans with a half-hearted copy/paste isn't going to make anybody happier."


I play female hawke and I never heard anders relation with mens, I suppose thats something you get when playing as male, fenris aswell, to me they seems as normal as Alistair. As for me? I like DA2 aproach alot more and I hope the heart choice is kept hehe I like to flirt with everyone!

Modifié par Huntress, 08 janvier 2012 - 08:08 .

[Leannan]

I think it's nice having the bisexual option for romances most definitely, but I also agree that it solidifies characters during immersion when you can pinpoint romance-ability/bisexuality.

For example Alistair; for me I could never imagine him as gay or bisexual. I understood and accept him as straight and it made him a more defined character in my mind.

I actually would like them to implement a gay character, not bisexual but actually only romance-able through same gender. I think it would be interesting.

Having all the characters romance-able either way seemed a little over the top... perhaps it was because the romancing was word for word the same either way. Though expecting different romance dialogues/events for each gender may be expecting too much.

[esper]

edited out because this is a no-spoiler fourm:pinched:

Modifié par esper, 09 janvier 2012 - 07:35 .

[Sabariel]

I prefer DA2's method over DAO's. More choices for everyone.

[Dokarqt]

Zanallen wrote...

As a straight male who only plays male characters with female love interests, I have absolutely no opinion on this matter.

This.

Don't know if anyone else further along in the thread has already commented on it (its like 35 pages, give me a break!). I will add one thing that bothered me: When Anders hits on you in chapter 1 (it's pretty much unavoidable if you decide to start a conversation with him).
Now my problem is not that he hits on me in the first place (What? Gay/bi people aren't allowed to flirt with other people just because someone might take offense? What kind of thinking is that?), but rather how the only options you seem to have in responding are:
1. Yea, lets do this! (encourage him)
2. Eww, you're disgusting! (break romance)

Yes yes they are exaggerated and it's been a while since I last played the game but the point is there. Why wouldn't there be a more diplomatic way to turn him down and make it clear that you're not interested without doing it so... aggressively and coming off like a giant douchebag?

[Annie_Dear]

I have no strong feelings one way or the other.

(Cookie if you get the reference)