922 réponses à ce sujet

[CuriousArtemis]

Dokarqt wrote...

Yes yes they are exaggerated and it's been a while since I last played the game but the point is there. Why wouldn't there be a more diplomatic way to turn him down and make it clear that you're not interested without doing it so... aggressively and coming off like a giant douchebag?

As a straight female who always play gay/bi male Hawke's ... yes, that is annoying LOL I usually romance Fenris, but my Hawke is neither disgusted nor offended when Anders hits on him.  I'd say he's more surprised, maybe a bit flattered, maybe even embarrassed.  But there's no option to respond politely to Anders' little confession.

Now, I don't mind receiving rivalry points for turning him down; recall that you receive rivalry points just for being a mage when first meeting Fenris, so those are just aspects of the characters' personalities, and it's easy to recover from those points if you're going for friendship path.

But the dialogue options for Hawke in that situation with Anders are annoying, yes.

[The Dubious]

Personally, I like the "all BI" approach for romance options simply because it seems fair or something rather.
I typically play a Male characters (rarely female- as I am one in real-life and prefer to utilize RPG character creations to sort of simulate an alternate persona), and like in ME2 it agitated me that I was so limited to romance options (since the female interests weren't all intriguing- Kasumi was the only female I actually liked... and of course she wasn't romanceable).

While I like the idea of an "all BI" selection of romanceable characters I don't think it should be at the expense of the individual characters "personality"- I guess there is a fine line between the freedom to choose anyone and sheer laziness. Perhaps some characters could start out strictly straight and your character could slowly worm his/her way into that interests heart? I dunno.

My two-cents. Doubt it makes much sense- just one of those days though lol.

[CuriousArtemis]

The Dubious wrote...

Perhaps some characters could start out strictly straight and your character could slowly worm his/her way into that interests heart? I dunno.  

The problem with that is that people don't change/choose sexuality.  If you're truly straight, you're striaght.  No amount of sweettalking is going to change your natural tendencies, longings, and desires.  Same if you're gay.  Now you could certainly be bi and in denial, I suppose (or gay and in denial), on account of societal fears and such.  Maybe your religion teaches you that being gay is wrong, so you try to live as a straight person, and so on.

I'm not seeing that the gay-hate in Thedas is so strong though that someone would do that.  So I don't think this is doable. 

[The Dubious]

motomotogirl wrote...

The Dubious wrote...

Perhaps some characters could start out strictly straight and your character could slowly worm his/her way into that interests heart? I dunno.  

The problem with that is that people don't change/choose sexuality.  If you're truly straight, you're striaght.  No amount of sweettalking is going to change your natural tendencies, longings, and desires.  Same if you're gay.  Now you could certainly be bi and in denial, I suppose (or gay and in denial), on account of societal fears and such.  Maybe your religion teaches you that being gay is wrong, so you try to live as a straight person, and so on.

I'm not seeing that the gay-hate in Thedas is so strong though that someone would do that.  So I don't think this is doable. 

True, but that's the beauty of a alternate-reality-virtual realm, nothing is sound. 

I'm not saying its not the best idea, but just a suggestion- since apparently some people got annoyed seeing that 'heart option' on same-sex companions they didn't want to pursue (at all), but its still just there (apparently they can't just ignore it lol.). 

It isn't fair to limit romance options and it isn't fair to jeopardize character integrity. Impasse no? I think all characters should be able to be "convinced" this would appease those of us who want the "all BI" cast, but some would require a "push" as in that little heart-icon wouldn't appear as easily without some careful dialouge navigating or something- I think that would also appease those who don't want the "all BI" cast. Since the heart-icon wouldn't appear unless you- again did some careful dialogue navigating and choosing, actions and whatnot.  

Like I said just a suggestion- I doubt it would be easy to implement anyway, but I think it could please both sides to some degree.

[Thiefy]

jlb524 wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
well that is clearly not how i meant it. no matter if you play as a male or female, every romance partner treats you 100% the same way. maybe that's nice for some people, and maybe that's even plausible in rare circumstances, but for ALL of them to do that is a little more than odd.

They aren't very reactive to the PC in general.  

Thief-of-Hearts wrote... 
in college i had a bisexual roomate (female) and a friend who was bi-curious plus transgender. both of them flirted with me in the past and both of them flirt with the other gender as well, so i'm just using what i have both observed and experienced. how they both acted towards men and women was different so it's unrealistic to me to see all four bi LIs treat a male hawke and female hawke *exactly* the same - and i don't mean that in a sexist way. i know they did it for the sake of resources but i think it's something that can be improved upon.

There are some dialog differences though so it's not exactly the same.  I wouldn't expect them to make entirely unique paths based on gender.

Yeah, people in real life do react differently to people depending on gender and other factors but these games typically don't reflect any of that very well.

i apologize, i forgot about this thread and what i was going to add initially but I just want to address the second quote - I realize that there is a miniscule difference in dialouge but it's not really enough in my opinion. It's not really a difference based on romance, but rather a difference based on each gender over all. Don't want entire new dialouge trees based on gender, but a little more acknowledgement is nice. DAO seemed to have done this a little better. Also, the fact that the NPCs don't reflect much on the gender or sexuality is what I meant by "one size fits all" and that's why I think it's weird and should be improved upon.


Edit- and can i just say that in referrence to Anders, I LOVED that he was the first one to make a move on my PC. It was tasteful and he honestly came off as just smitten instead of creepy or raunchy.

Modifié par Thief-of-Hearts, 10 janvier 2012 - 01:02 .

[The Dubious]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...
well that is clearly not how i meant it. no matter if you play as a male or female, every romance partner treats you 100% the same way. maybe that's nice for some people, and maybe that's even plausible in rare circumstances, but for ALL of them to do that is a little more than odd.

They aren't very reactive to the PC in general.  

Thief-of-Hearts wrote... 
in college i had a bisexual roomate (female) and a friend who was bi-curious plus transgender. both of them flirted with me in the past and both of them flirt with the other gender as well, so i'm just using what i have both observed and experienced. how they both acted towards men and women was different so it's unrealistic to me to see all four bi LIs treat a male hawke and female hawke *exactly* the same - and i don't mean that in a sexist way. i know they did it for the sake of resources but i think it's something that can be improved upon.

There are some dialog differences though so it's not exactly the same.  I wouldn't expect them to make entirely unique paths based on gender.

Yeah, people in real life do react differently to people depending on gender and other factors but these games typically don't reflect any of that very well.

i apologize, i forgot about this thread and what i was going to add initially but I just want to address the second quote - I realize that there is a miniscule difference in dialouge but it's not really enough in my opinion. It's not really a difference based on romance, but rather a difference based on each gender over all. Don't want entire new dialouge trees based on gender, but a little more acknowledgement is nice. DAO seemed to have done this a little better. Also, the fact that the NPCs don't reflect much on the gender or sexuality is what I meant by "one size fits all" and that's why I think it's weird and should be improved upon.


Edit- and can i just say that in referrence to Anders, I LOVED that he was the first one to make a move on my PC. It was tasteful and he honestly came off as just smitten instead of creepy or raunchy.

Excuse me for budding in just wanted to say I totally agree with you on the Anders thing- although honestly I was (pleasantly) stunned by it. I never saw it coming. 

[Game_Fan_85]

Dokarqt wrote...

Zanallen wrote...

As a straight male who only plays male characters with female love interests, I have absolutely no opinion on this matter.

This.

Don't know if anyone else further along in the thread has already commented on it (its like 35 pages, give me a break!). I will add one thing that bothered me: When Anders hits on you in chapter 1 (it's pretty much unavoidable if you decide to start a conversation with him).
Now my problem is not that he hits on me in the first place (What? Gay/bi people aren't allowed to flirt with other people just because someone might take offense? What kind of thinking is that?), but rather how the only options you seem to have in responding are:
1. Yea, lets do this! (encourage him)
2. Eww, you're disgusting! (break romance)

Yes yes they are exaggerated and it's been a while since I last played the game but the point is there. Why wouldn't there be a more diplomatic way to turn him down and make it clear that you're not interested without doing it so... aggressively and coming off like a giant douchebag?

I understand what you are saying and I agree.  I had the same problem in Origins with Morrigan.  In the 360/PS3 version I romanced Zevran and with the PC version w/hack,  Alistair.  It annoyed me when I had to turn Morrigan down in every game that she became angry with me and I lost 20 points (or was it 30?) from her.  I wanted an option to that said "sorry, I don't swing that way, but I love you as a friend".  Although I became friends with her later on, it took a while to build those points back up. 

When I played the first time and saw those options for Anders I had two thoughs: 1. Lot's of little morons would love using the "eww that's disgusting" option and they could vent their homophobic tendancies through their character and 2. There really should be a middle of the road option for letting him down if the player is not interested in that option.

I said when DA2 was released and the bullcrap about the "all bi characters" started that an option to make your character Gay/Bi/Straight in the begining would be a good way to avoid things like this but other people thought that was a bad idea.  I still think it could be used to avoid the issues listed above.

[Masako52]

Yes, I would be EXTREMELY disappointed if, at this point, Bioware took away the "All bi" romances.

The why is very simple - there's no reason why the player shouldn't be able to choose who he or she wants to romance. In a perfect RPG, the player defines the real game, the player makes the choices. Adding strict sexualities (usually, everyone is straight) is an unnecessary restriction. You don't HAVE to play gay, you don't HAVE to play straight. It's up to you. Having the voice actors read the script with both gender pronouns takes virtually no effort, and it means the world to those of us who much prefer same-sex romances.

There is no reason for Bioware to turn back at this point. And the "omg, Anders hit on me but I'm a straight male, I'm sooo mad" argument? just, lol. I'm a lesbian and I have men hit on me all the time. I survive, you will, too.

Nor do I approve of the suggestion that one character be gay, one character be straight, one character be bi, etc. Again, it literally takes no effort to give the player more choices, and a game's agenda should not be to limit choices. Especially a choice that, in Bioware games, doesn't seriously affect the game's plot in the first place.

[Gunderic]

Masako52 wrote...

Yes, I would be EXTREMELY disappointed if, at this point, Bioware took away the "All bi" romances.

it literally takes no effort..

case in point I suppose.

I'd be surprised if they'd keep 'em though. I expect 2 bi characters and 2 straight ones again.

[Ferretinabun]

It'd feel like a massive step back if Bioware removed the 'all bi' romances. I was a big fan of them.

Don't know if anyone's already made the point, but if it bothers you that certain NPC's are bi, don't hit on them!

Okay Isabela puts it all out there, for everyone, and that's kinda central to her character, and yes Anders does have an awkward come-on to a male Hawke wich might have been handled differently. But if you don't hit on either Merrill or Fenris then you'll never know which way they swing. Everyone who wants to gets to flirt with them, everyone who would be offended by having them come on to them is spared blushes too. Everyone's a winner.

So basically, the solution may well be to make all NPCs totally sexless until you hit on them, which lets the game know who you approve of hitting on you.

Hot, huh?

[Masako52]

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Yes, I would be EXTREMELY disappointed if, at this point, Bioware took away the "All bi" romances.

it literally takes no effort..

case in point I suppose.

I'd be surprised if they'd keep 'em though. I expect 2 bi characters and 2 straight ones again.

Really? As far as I understand, Bioware has been pretty unwavering in its stance of gay inclusivity. Frankly I don't see any reason why they would revert back at this point, and I haven't seen any indication from the devs here that they'd like to. The sense I've gotten is that they are proud of their decision, which they should be.

[Am1vf]

I will simply state that for me too much choice for the player can sometimes be detrimental to the believability of the world and the depth of the characters.

So far the all bi romances in DA2 didn't bother me in the slightest, although I suspect the specific characters it affects might have something to do with it, I will have to wait for the future before I make any real opinion.

[Chun Hei]

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Yes, I would be EXTREMELY disappointed if, at this point, Bioware took away the "All bi" romances.

it literally takes no effort..

case in point I suppose.

I'd be surprised if they'd keep 'em though. I expect 2 bi characters and 2 straight ones again.

From earlier but I think I can stand to see it posted again...

Abispa wrote...

The WRITERS of DA2 made the LIs (except
Sebastian) "bi." It was THEIR vision to cater to players who play s/s
romances AND players who play o/s romances. And not all s/s players are
gay. I know several guys who play "lesbian" heroes, and am living with a
woman who plays "gay" heroes. I'm sure there are straight people who
may want to take advantage of s/s options for RPG purposes (you know,
players who LIKE playing characters who are not like the player), just
as gay players have played games with NO s/s options for years.

It
is not up to s/s supporters to justify a decision that has already been
made. It it now up to s/s critics to justify why the writers shouldn't
continue using the system that THEY implemented and should now cater to
fans who want gender and gay exclusive LIs set up by a
still-not-"realistic" quota system.

[Gotholhorakh]

Ferretinabun wrote...

It'd feel like a massive step back if Bioware removed the 'all bi' romances. I was a big fan of them.

Not overly centred on them myself, but would be upset - maybe even up in arms - if the choices were removed because so many of our fellow community members love them to distraction. Besides which, it depends on the char you're RPing (at least under normal circumstances where the game lets you RP your character).

Less choice == BAD.

Don't know if anyone's already made the point, but if it bothers you that certain NPC's are bi, don't hit on them!

Okay Isabela puts it all out there, for everyone, and that's kinda central to her character, and yes Anders does have an awkward come-on to a male Hawke wich might have been handled differently.

Yeah -  I felt a bit... well sexually harrassed by the Isabela/Anders stuff. It might possibly be because while Isabela was just revolting, New Anders made my flesh crawl. The best bit was that I couldn't sensitively reject his advances (as you do in real life) and keep things friendly, I set him off disliking me for no reason... which was even creepier.

I just sort of dealt with it, it's no biggie to me compared to the rest of a game, but I think people have every right to mention it's off-putting for them. You don't expect to get home with your expensive new XBox game and have it sexually harrass you. Fun.

They have no reason to justify themselves for it, either - I have no idea why people are trying to - it's a product, sold by a business, not a compulsory educational purchase. You like an aspect of it or you don't. It makes it more fun or it doesn't.

But if you don't hit on either Merrill or Fenris then you'll never know which way they swing. Everyone who wants to gets to flirt with them, everyone who would be offended by having them come on to them is spared blushes too. Everyone's a winner.

So basically, the solution may well be to make all NPCs totally sexless until you hit on them, which lets the game know who you approve of hitting on you.

Hot, huh?

You say that, that sounds perfect to me. I must be such a young fogey.

It's not like I never did any of the romances, and it doesn't seem like it would be the world's biggest impediment to romances if you had to seek romance intentionally. I guess each person will have their own viewpoint on that one, I have no idea how others would feel about it.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 13 janvier 2012 - 11:22 .

[casadechrisso]

Well said, I totally agree. The all-bi cast makes the characters lifeless player bots, not believable individuals. If I wanted bots as companions, I'd play Bethesda games, from Bioware I expect more. DA:O did it right, DA2 not.

[Am1vf]

casadechrisso wrote...

Well said, I totally agree. The all-bi cast makes the characters lifeless player bots, not believable individuals. If I wanted bots as companions, I'd play Bethesda games, from Bioware I expect more. DA:O did it right, DA2 not.

Or a Fable game, or a Sims game,...

[casadechrisso]

Or as I said in that other thread, how about a middle way that gives everyone an option, but much more believable? Example, my believe is that there are rarely 100% persons, gay ior straight, but that there's a scale. Lelianna would be a perfect 50%, open for everyone, while Morrigan for example would be like... 90% hetero, Alistair probably 95%. You could still give the player the option to flirt with them, but they'd be incredibly hard to crack - however, how much more rewarding would it be for your gay character in the end to have cracked them, compared to the DA2 "I throw myself at anyone" cast? I'd say much more.

[Am1vf]

casadechrisso wrote...

Or as I said in that other thread, how about a middle way that gives everyone an option, but much more believable? Example, my believe is that there are rarely 100% persons, gay ior straight, but that there's a scale. Lelianna would be a perfect 50%, open for everyone, while Morrigan for example would be like... 90% hetero, Alistair probably 95%. You could still give the player the option to flirt with them, but they'd be incredibly hard to crack - however, how much more rewarding would it be for your gay character in the end to have cracked them, compared to the DA2 "I throw myself at anyone" cast? I'd say much more.

That would be the BEST possible way to portray relationships in a game ever!

It must be extremelly difficult to write something like that but one can hope we may one day see it.

Fandango9641 wrote...

casadechrisso wrote...

Well
said, I totally agree. The all-bi cast makes the characters lifeless
player bots, not believable individuals. If I wanted bots as companions,
I'd play Bethesda games, from Bioware I expect more. DA:O did it right,
DA2 not.

For sure, it would be a lot more interesting
to me to have a party member who, for reasons of religious belief let’s
say, would only be a romantic option for players of the same religion or
race. Having NPC’s and party members with views that clash with those
of my character could provide for some really interesting, unfeigned
roleplaying alternatives. Just a thought.

That has allways been the way I wanted bioware games to go. So far the "friendship progress bar" is standing for the religious belives and morals but it is limited. The other issue is that we havent had any racist character in the party, maybe Sten is the closest thing and in fact, he didn't romance any non qunari player character as far as I know.

Modifié par Am1_vf, 13 janvier 2012 - 12:38 .

[casadechrisso]

Fandango9641 wrote...

That could work, but I’m just not a
fan of this idea that every single party member should be a reasonable
romantic option for a single protagonist. Just seems needlessly
restrictive, shallow and silly. In any case, players would be free to
experience each and every romance option over a number of playthroughts
right?

Right, although some people apparently have problems playing the opposite gender or whatever other restrictions (class/race/background) there might exist.
I'm also trying to be realistic, a lot of players or at least the loudest WANT the totally bi cast and I'd be surprised if Bioware took it back after the damage is done, so I'm trying to think of ways how to improve it at least. This could lead to much more interesting romance options I think, I mean, a straight Alistair discovering he has feelings for a male PC that are totally against his beliefs... I sense drama!

Modifié par casadechrisso, 13 janvier 2012 - 12:41 .

[randomcheeses]

Masako52 wrote...

Yes, I would be EXTREMELY disappointed if, at this point, Bioware took away the "All bi" romances.

The why is very simple - there's no reason why the player shouldn't be able to choose who he or she wants to romance. In a perfect RPG, the player defines the real game, the player makes the choices. Adding strict sexualities (usually, everyone is straight) is an unnecessary restriction. You don't HAVE to play gay, you don't HAVE to play straight. It's up to you. Having the voice actors read the script with both gender pronouns takes virtually no effort, and it means the world to those of us who much prefer same-sex romances.

There is no reason for Bioware to turn back at this point. And the "omg, Anders hit on me but I'm a straight male, I'm sooo mad" argument? just, lol. I'm a lesbian and I have men hit on me all the time. I survive, you will, too.

Nor do I approve of the suggestion that one character be gay, one character be straight, one character be bi, etc. Again, it literally takes no effort to give the player more choices, and a game's agenda should not be to limit choices. Especially a choice that, in Bioware games, doesn't seriously affect the game's plot in the first place.

Quoted for truth.

[casadechrisso]

Am1_vf wrote...

It must be extremelly difficult to write something like that but one can hope we may one day see it.

And who if not Bioware?
Seriously, if you take a close look at DA2 there's a lot of very very creative stuff under it's hood, just the end product was uh.. crap IMO. But take things like how your general attitude and voice changes in cutscenes based on past dialogue decisions etc, that's actually quite impressive. I think if Bioware can do that (a love for detail sorely missed in other areas of the game btw), they can make such a realistic romance system easily. After all, they are specialized on romances, no?