922 réponses à ce sujet

[HolyAvenger]

*shrugs* Yes but I think it could've been interesting if Anders was gay so if you played Fem!Hawke he had no interest. That would've been a cool dynamic to explore. I'm all for sacrificing some player experience for a better-written, more-immersive story. That includes having characters with a sexual identity that closes off avenues for some characters to romance them.

[Malanu]

I don't know, I don't see the need for LI in a game. The only reason I romance Isabella is that she is the catalyst for a 1 on 1 with the Quari leader. It's the reason I slept with Morgain in DA:O, game plot.

[Gotholhorakh]

HolyAvenger wrote...

*shrugs* Yes but I think it could've been interesting if Anders was gay so if you played Fem!Hawke he had no interest. That would've been a cool dynamic to explore. I'm all for sacrificing some player experience for a better-written, more-immersive story. That includes having characters with a sexual identity that closes off avenues for some characters to romance them.

Well also, it's unrealistic and a bit backward to suggest that sexuality is a choice for everyone, notably this is the basis on which persecution of gay people has been justified in various circles even in the face of their own moral scrutiny, and is the fundamental lie that has seen people executed and/or imprisoned for a long time, right up to the present day in fanatically religious states and dictatorships.

It tells us that people can "get better" from being gay, can "turn back" to the path of decency or can "pull themselves together" because their sexuality is abnormal - in Real Life we're gradually establishing that this is an unreasonable requirement to place upon people, but I'm afraid that the Dragon Age view of sexuality as something everyone chooses is very much moving backwards on that score.

Still, the world as created is the world as created - as I've said before it's important not to expect a whole universe someone creates to be a tool for political propaganda, that would just be silly oversimplification and unpleasant controlfreakery.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:48 .

[whykikyouwhy]

The player isn't required to embark on any romance path in order to finish the game, so at no point does any playthrough *need* to include a LI. However, the romances add nuances to the narrative. If a character is adventuring/thriving for the better part of a decade, having an opportunity to pursue a romance is a nice way to add to the role-playing experience and make the PC more robust.

Isabela does not even need to be recruited to prompt any dealings with the Qunari. Although, I personally can't conceive of running a playthrough *without* Isabela. It would be missing something vital, imo.

[whykikyouwhy]

@Gotholhorakh - I'm not sure I understand where you feel the "Dragon Age view of sexuality as something everyone chooses" is evident. Do you mean the companions? If so, I don't know that they "choose" their sexuality at some juncture in the game, or that their sexuality is fluid...their sexuality simply isn't declared or announced by any of them. So, if we look at the characters as unique and free-thinking beings, independent of the game itself, and had a chat with any of them, I'm not sure how they would identify themselves. That might assume that 1. they feel certain about their identity, enough to state "I am x" (many folks spend years getting a handle on "who" they are, across various aspects) and that 2. they would even want to call out how they see themselves.

I doubt that Fenris would sit down to such a discussion.

[Malanu]

whykikyouwhy wrote...
*SNIP*
Isabela does not even need to be recruited to prompt any dealings with the Qunari. Although, I personally can't conceive of running a playthrough *without* Isabela. It would be missing something vital, imo.

This is true, but Isabella gets her biggest Loyalty boosts by romancing her. I had her full loyalty after 3 flirts and one trip to the bed! The only easier character to gain loyaly of is Varric! I think Hawk could deficate on him and he would Thank him!!!

[ChickenDownUnder]

Was always a bit on the fence about this. On one hand, I appreciate my main character not having quite so limited romance options by making the characters bi.

On the other, it doesn't make as much sense when pretending to treat the characters as uh, 'real people.' I suppose what I am trying to say is that if Bioware really wants to have characters to have genuine personalities that make it easy to pretend in-game that they're people, well then they can't be so easy swayed in their likes and dislikes unless they're portrayed as weak willed. As in, they must have their own identity that is not at the complete whim of the player, and sexual identity is a part of that.

Try telling somebody you know that you like them but it would be better off if they were gay and watch what happens.

And plz post pictures.

[Malanu]

Well it's more about allowing the play to have their fantasy romance I would say. However, As the player I felt that a romance with Aveline would have been proper as she would have made Hawke's mom the happiest I'd think. After all she is the most respectable (not a pirate or a Blood Mage), woman in the game, possibly a Noble (I didn't finish that quest), and had known Hawke the longest (other than his sister).

[robmokron]

Well the questio i was the companions Bi or HawkeSexual? Does it matter? I think the three main roads that need to be decied on is

1.Singular sexuality companions (one gay, one lez, one staright etc) This could make for some very interesting dialogue and roleplay, but at the cost of variety and choice based on PC's choice of sexuality (essentially best choice for epic writing and realism)

2. All BI or PCsexual, This allows more choice, yet doesn't have to give then PC 15 companions to serve all their Needs (doesn't have to sacrifice dialogue for choice)

3. Singular sexuality, but more companions , essentially, this would give everyone good options for all sexualities but at the sarcifice of depth

which would you choose?

For me 1 or 2, but i can accept 2 just fine

[PrinceLionheart]

Malanu wrote...

Well it's more about allowing the play to have their fantasy romance I would say. However, As the player I felt that a romance with Aveline would have been proper as she would have made Hawke's mom the happiest I'd think. After all she is the most respectable (not a pirate or a Blood Mage), woman in the game, possibly a Noble (I didn't finish that quest), and had known Hawke the longest (other than his sister).

That's my problem with the DA2 romances. Not that everyone was bi, but that nobody seemed like they'd be able to provide a stable romance. Fenris may be the exception.

[whykikyouwhy]

Perhaps the LIs have personal conflict in order to allow interaction by/from Hawke and some sort of sphere of influence. I wouldn't consider the romances unstable though - depending on who you romanced, by act 3, the relationships seemed quite solid. Granted, the city was in turmoil, so love was thriving in crazy times.

[Plaintiff]

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Well also, it's unrealistic and a bit backward to suggest that sexuality is a choice for everyone, notably this is the basis on which persecution of gay people has been justified in various circles even in the face of their own moral scrutiny, and is the fundamental lie that has seen people executed and/or imprisoned for a long time, right up to the present day in fanatically religious states and dictatorships.

Bioware isn't suggesting anything of the kind. You are, however, by totally ignoring the idea that people can be legitimately attracted to both sexes.

It tells us that people can "get better" from being gay, can "turn back" to the path of decency or can "pull themselves together" because their sexuality is abnormal - in Real Life we're gradually establishing that this is an unreasonable requirement to place upon people, but I'm afraid that the Dragon Age view of sexuality as something everyone chooses is very much moving backwards on that score.

Still, the world as created is the world as created - as I've said before it's important not to expect a whole universe someone creates to be a tool for political propaganda, that would just be silly oversimplification and unpleasant controlfreakery.

Bisexuality is not a "choice" anymore than homsexuality is. It may widen your dating pool, but your attraction to the same sex does not go away if you start sticking it to a chick, and at no point does the game tell us anything of the kind.

The only view Dragon Age has on "sexuality" is that the romances should be accessible to everyone regardless of sexuality.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 janvier 2012 - 07:37 .

[Plaintiff]

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Gunderic wrote...

Masako52 wrote...

Yes, I would be EXTREMELY disappointed if, at this point, Bioware took away the "All bi" romances.

it literally takes no effort..

case in point I suppose.

I'd be surprised if they'd keep 'em though. I expect 2 bi characters and 2 straight ones again.

Really? As far as I understand, Bioware has been pretty unwavering in its stance of gay inclusivity. Frankly I don't see any reason why they would revert back at this point, and I haven't seen any indication from the devs here that they'd like to. The sense I've gotten is that they are proud of their decision, which they should be.

they already had 'gay inclusivity' with origins.

And they're not allowed to have more because...?

[syllogi]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was always a bit on the fence about this. On one hand, I appreciate my main character not having quite so limited romance options by making the characters bi.

On the other, it doesn't make as much sense when pretending to treat the characters as uh, 'real people.' I suppose what I am trying to say is that if Bioware really wants to have characters to have genuine personalities that make it easy to pretend in-game that they're people, well then they can't be so easy swayed in their likes and dislikes unless they're portrayed as weak willed. As in, they must have their own identity that is not at the complete whim of the player, and sexual identity is a part of that.

Try telling somebody you know that you like them but it would be better off if they were gay and watch what happens.

And plz post pictures.

Oh my.

It is not "weak willed" to be attracted to both men and women.  It does not make their personalities less genuine.  A bisexual person is not "swayed" to change their sexual orientation.  Being attracted to both genders *is* their sexual orientation.

Try telling a bisexual person that they would be better off if they "chose" to be either homosexual or heterosexual, and watch what happens.  

[Plaintiff]

I'm posting again in a short timeframe because this issue reeeeeeeaaaaaaally bugs me.

As a homosexual, I despise and loath media that deals with alternative sexuality 99% of the time, because, inevitably, the entire conflict surrounding that character is their alternative sexuality. Rarely if ever does the character have a personality outside of that. This is not to say that they fill a certain stereotype about homosexuals. They might not, but you'd never ****ing know it because all anybody talks about with them is how incredibly gay they are. It happens everywhere. Books, movies, television.

"I am gay and I get bullied because I'm gay and I like this guy but he's not gay and I am gay. Now I have a boyfriend but I'm confused about how to do the sex because of the gay. Now I'm married to a women, to cover up my gay. Gay gay gay, gay gay gay gay gay, gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay gay gay gay."

I want gay characters who have interests and experience conflicts outside their sexuality. Where are the gay action heroes? Do our limp wrists break when we try to pick up a weapon? Or maybe we can't conceal any in our skin-tight fishnet shirts and assless leather chaps? Or maybe our lisp and effeminate gestures give us away when we're working undercover. 

Comic books, surprisingly, seem to be way ahead of the curve on this, but the rest of the world is slow to catch up.

What's my point? Well, what I'm getting to is that DA2 is one of the few, if not the only game to deal with alternative sexuality in the right way. It's available, but not essential to the plot or the characters. The choice of what sexual-related content, and how much of it you experience of it is left entirely up to the player, which isnt possible in non-interactive media. Heck; players don't have to romance anyone at all if they think romances are stupid. 

Anders and Isabela may mention a liking for members of their own gender, but it doesn't define them by any means, despite what people say. Their sexuality is but one facet of their personalities, and one that can be ignored with no consequence whatsoever. Their personal plotlines have nothing to do with their sexuality, except Ander's initial companion quest, just barely. The connection is fairly circumstantial.

For a long time I've wondered why other games, movies and books dealing with alternative sexuality focus on it to the exclusion of pretty much anything else. Now, after reading this thread, I understand that any efforts to present audiences with the kind of story I want will be futile, because once you bring up the gay even once, that is all they see. And by God, they will complain about it forever.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 20 janvier 2012 - 08:51 .

[robmokron]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm posting again in a short timeframe because this issue reeeeeeeaaaaaaally bugs me.

As a homosexual, I despise and loath media that deals with alternative sexuality 99% of the time, because, inevitably, the entire conflict surrounding that character is their alternative sexuality. Rarely if ever does the character have a personality outside of that. This is not to say that they fill a certain stereotype about homosexuals. They might not, but you'd never ****ing know it because all anybody talks about with them is how incredibly gay they are. It happens everywhere. Books, movies, television.

"I am gay and I get bullied because I'm gay and I like this guy but he's not gay and I am gay. Now I have a boyfriend but I'm confused about how to do the sex because of the gay. Now I'm married to a women, to cover up my gay. Gay gay gay, gay gay gay gay gay, gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay gay gay gay."

I want gay characters who have interests and experience conflicts outside their sexuality. Where are the gay action heroes? Do our limp wrists break when we try to pick up a weapon? Or maybe we can't conceal any in our skin-tight fishnet shirts and assless leather chaps? Or maybe our lisp and effeminate gestures give us away when we're working undercover. 

Comic books, surprisingly, seem to be way ahead of the curve on this, but the rest of the world is slow to catch up.

What's my point? Well, what I'm getting to is that DA2 is one of the few, if not the only game to deal with alternative sexuality in the right way. It's available, but not essential to the plot or the characters. The choice of what sexual-related content, and how much of it you experience of it is left entirely up to the player, which isnt possible in non-interactive media. Heck; players don't have to romance anyone at all if they think romances are stupid. 

Anders and Isabela may mention a liking for members of their own gender, but it doesn't define them by any means, despite what people say. Their sexuality is but one facet of their personalities, and one that can be ignored with no consequence whatsoever. Their personal plotlines have nothing to do with their sexuality, except Ander's initial companion quest, just barely. The connection is fairly circumstantial.

For a long time I've wondered why other games, movies and books only dealt with alternative sexuality focussed on it to the exclusion of pretty much anything else. Now, after reading this thread, I understand that any efforts to present audiences with the kind of story I want will be futile, because once you bring up the gay even once, that is all they see.

Your completely right, A Gay companion's motivations and plot shouldnt revolve around his sexuality, it should just be there

[Gotholhorakh]

Plaintiff wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Well also, it's unrealistic and a bit backward to suggest that sexuality is a choice for everyone, notably this is the basis on which persecution of gay people has been justified in various circles even in the face of their own moral scrutiny, and is the fundamental lie that has seen people executed and/or imprisoned for a long time, right up to the present day in fanatically religious states and dictatorships.

Bioware isn't suggesting anything of the kind. You are, however, by totally ignoring the idea that people can be legitimately attracted to both sexes.

Yes, that's called being bisexual, and if everyone is bisexual in the world, then homosexuality is a choice.

There's been a long hard road travelled to establish the notion of homosexuality being a legit sexuality that is natural to the individual and not just the individual "choosing to be gay".

I think a lot of people around might be too young to remember this, no idea about you, but this was quite seriously the basis of justifications of violence towards homosexuals in the past, individually yes but more importantly from institutions like religions, criminal justice systems and mental health care systems. People were ostracised, imprisoned, killed and so on because people did not believe the simple Fact That Some People Are Born Gay Rather Than Choosing To Be.

It tells us that people can "get better" from being gay, can "turn back" to the path of decency or can "pull themselves together" because their sexuality is abnormal - in Real Life we're gradually establishing that this is an unreasonable requirement to place upon people, but I'm afraid that the Dragon Age view of sexuality as something everyone chooses is very much moving backwards on that score.

Still, the world as created is the world as created - as I've said before it's important not to expect a whole universe someone creates to be a tool for political propaganda, that would just be silly oversimplification and unpleasant controlfreakery.

Bisexuality is not a "choice" anymore than homsexuality is. It may widen your dating pool, but your attraction to the same sex does not go away if you start sticking it to a chick, and at no point does the game tell us anything of the kind.

The only view Dragon Age has on "sexuality" is that the romances should be accessible to everyone regardless of sexuality.

I'm not sure it has any view on sexuality, I think it is meant to be a depiction of a reality, so it's not really to be criticised for "how things are" - as I say that would amount to simplification and controlfreakery.

I'm not, either, assuming bisexuality is some choice, because I'm not simple-minded. However, in a universe where everyone has bisexuality written through them like a stick of rock, actual homosexuality becomes kind of non-existent.

I just think the reductive "fluid sexuality" situation can be questioned more on the basis of homosexuality being a bloody whim or mood change away for everyone with a pulse, than for lots of the other reasons I see posted.

Plaintiff wrote...

Gunderic wrote...
they already had 'gay inclusivity' with origins.

And they're not allowed to have more because...?

Quite - they can have as much as the good people who buy games will pay for, and nobody can truthfully say any different.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 20 janvier 2012 - 09:04 .

[Plaintiff]

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Yes, that's called being bisexual, and if everyone is bisexual in the world, then homosexuality is a choice.

No it isn't because you don't cease to be bisexual. You can choose to be in a homosexual relationship, but that is not the same thing. You don't stop being bisexual. And if Hawke's companions are genuinely attracted to him/her, then they aren't choosing anything either, except to follow through on those feelings. But if they opted not to follow through on those feelings, they would still be bisexual.

It's a small distinction, but it's pretty important. DX

There's been a long hard road travelled to establish the notion of homosexuality being a legit sexuality that is natural to the individual and not just the individual "choosing to be gay".

I think a lot of people around might be too young to remember this, no idea about you, but this was quite seriously the basis of justifications of violence towards homosexuals in the past, individually yes but more importantly from institutions like religions, criminal justice systems and mental health care systems. People were ostracised, imprisoned, killed and so on because people did not believe the simple Fact That Some People Are Born Gay Rather Than Choosing To Be.

Believe me, I know about it. It still happens.

But the argument shouldn't be about whether or not it's a choice, anyway. It's the wrong argument to be having. Even if homosexuality were a choice, it shouldn't matter. People should be free to be homosexual, even if they can choose not to be, because there is nothing wrong with being homosexual.

I'm not sure it has any view on sexuality, I think it is meant to be a depiction of a reality, so it's not really to be criticised for "how things are" - as I say that would amount to simplification and controlfreakery.

Well Gaider has gone on record saying that they wanted all of the romance options to be available to everybody, which amounts to the same thing. They wanted to make it possible for any player to romance any of the four options.

I'm not, either, assuming bisexuality is some choice, because I'm not simple-minded. However, in a universe where everyone has bisexuality written through them like a stick of rock, actual homosexuality becomes kind of non-existent.

Well, but not everybody in the universe is bisexual. Only six characters have been explicitly shown to be so. Alistair and Morrigan still exist in the universe, and they're presumably still heterosexual, since they say nothing to indicate differently. Wade and Herren are plain homosexuals, according to word of god. Aveline seems pretty heterosexual, I'm pretty sure that Leandra is. In DLC, both hawke's siblings are shwn to be attracted to members of the opposite sex. I think we can safely assume, until further notice, that the vast majority of people in Thedas are completely heterosexual, or at least mostly on that side of the Kinsey scale.

Is it unusual that four bisexuals would just happen across Hawke and join his posse? Sure it is. I don't think anybody is going to argue that the odds were against them. But it's not impossible. I find it easily more believable than Hawke's tendency to sort of stumble into every single conflict in Kirkwall.

[PrinceLionheart]

Plaintiff wrote...

Comic books, surprisingly, seem to be way ahead of the curve on this, but the rest of the world is slow to catch up.

With Lesbian characters anyway. I know there are a few Openly Gay Male heroes, but I don't recall any of them staring in their own titles.

Modifié par PrinceLionheart, 20 janvier 2012 - 09:39 .

[Plaintiff]

PrinceLionheart wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

Comic books, surprisingly, seem to be way ahead of the curve on this, but the rest of the world is slow to catch up.

With Lesbian characters anyway. I know there are a few Openly Gay Male heroes, but I don't recall any of them staring in their own titles.

Oh, they don't have to be protagonists, although a few would be nice. As long as the story is about something other than how super-duper gay they are.

[jlb524]

Plaintiff wrote...

I'm posting again in a short timeframe because this issue reeeeeeeaaaaaaally bugs me.

As a homosexual, I despise and loath media that deals with alternative sexuality 99% of the time, because, inevitably, the entire conflict surrounding that character is their alternative sexuality. Rarely if ever does the character have a personality outside of that. This is not to say that they fill a certain stereotype about homosexuals. They might not, but you'd never ****ing know it because all anybody talks about with them is how incredibly gay they are. It happens everywhere. Books, movies, television.

"I am gay and I get bullied because I'm gay and I like this guy but he's not gay and I am gay. Now I have a boyfriend but I'm confused about how to do the sex because of the gay. Now I'm married to a women, to cover up my gay. Gay gay gay, gay gay gay gay gay, gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay gay gay gay."

I want gay characters who have interests and experience conflicts outside their sexuality. Where are the gay action heroes? Do our limp wrists break when we try to pick up a weapon? Or maybe we can't conceal any in our skin-tight fishnet shirts and assless leather chaps? Or maybe our lisp and effeminate gestures give us away when we're working undercover. 

Comic books, surprisingly, seem to be way ahead of the curve on this, but the rest of the world is slow to catch up.

What's my point? Well, what I'm getting to is that DA2 is one of the few, if not the only game to deal with alternative sexuality in the right way. It's available, but not essential to the plot or the characters. The choice of what sexual-related content, and how much of it you experience of it is left entirely up to the player, which isnt possible in non-interactive media. Heck; players don't have to romance anyone at all if they think romances are stupid. 

Anders and Isabela may mention a liking for members of their own gender, but it doesn't define them by any means, despite what people say. Their sexuality is but one facet of their personalities, and one that can be ignored with no consequence whatsoever. Their personal plotlines have nothing to do with their sexuality, except Ander's initial companion quest, just barely. The connection is fairly circumstantial.

For a long time I've wondered why other games, movies and books dealing with alternative sexuality focus on it to the exclusion of pretty much anything else. Now, after reading this thread, I understand that any efforts to present audiences with the kind of story I want will be futile, because once you bring up the gay even once, that is all they see. And by God, they will complain about it forever.

I endorse this message.  Spot on.

I echo the sentiment that I don't want a character's sexuality to be a 'deal' but we have a long way to go for that it seems.  I don't think making a 'deal' out of it is progressive at all...the other direction is...giving little attention to it just like with a character's heterosexuality.

Modifié par jlb524, 20 janvier 2012 - 11:04 .

[Abispa]

It seems that the people in the DA universe are raised to be hetero-flexible. Heterosexual is the norm, but no one freaks out if their bad-ass "bro" is gay or if someone of the same gender hits on them, at least they don't freak out over gender. In such a situation a "straight" person may actually engage in a homosexual relationship with a close friend or suitor if s/he is especially close to him/her, as would a "gay" person in a similar heterosexual situation. That is believable and even mirrors many real historical settings.

[Wulfram]

I don't think it should be assumed that Hawke and his friends are representative of Thedosian society. They're a delightfully unconventional lot in many ways.

[robmokron]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think it should be assumed that Hawke and his friends are representative of Thedosian society. They're a delightfully unconventional lot in many ways.

This over 9000

[Abispa]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't think it should be assumed that Hawke and his friends are representative of Thedosian society. They're a delightfully unconventional lot in many ways.

Not just DA2, but also DA:O and the novels. Not everyone is "bi," but nobody freaks out over s/s couple, nor do they accuse them of being less realistic or lacking integrity. I guess I am being human-centric, though, since I have no idea how such issues are handled by the Qunari or Dwarves.