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Open Romances and Interpretive Sexuality of Characters


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#876
Wulfram

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Abispa wrote...

Not just DA2, but also DA:O and the novels. Not everyone is "bi," but nobody freaks out over s/s couple, nor do they accuse them of being less realistic or lacking integrity. I guess I am being human-centric, though, since I have no idea how such issues are handled by the Qunari or Dwarves.


But also no one freaks out over a human/elf couple - which we know is in fact a very real issue in the setting.

This article on the wiki, which is based mostly on dev posts on the old boards suggests that people are generally fairly accepting of homosexuality - but it's also not quite the uncomplicated land of tolerance that it can appear when playing the game.

#877
Abispa

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Wulfram wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Not just DA2, but also DA:O and the novels. Not everyone is "bi," but nobody freaks out over s/s couple, nor do they accuse them of being less realistic or lacking integrity. I guess I am being human-centric, though, since I have no idea how such issues are handled by the Qunari or Dwarves.


But also no one freaks out over a human/elf couple - which we know is in fact a very real issue in the setting.

This article on the wiki, which is based mostly on dev posts on the old boards suggests that people are generally fairly accepting of homosexuality - but it's also not quite the uncomplicated land of tolerance that it can appear when playing the game.


I never said it was a land of tolerance. Just that homosexuality doesn't "offend God" or "make you lose your man card" and that the Warden, Hawke, party members and handful of s/s background characters were able to flirt/romance often with the same gender with no fear of facing homophobia. The casualness with which they could go about it suggests that it no bid deal, not just some special priviledge of a hero/noble/homicidal-killing-machine.

#878
bleetman

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Wulfram wrote...

But also no one freaks out over a human/elf couple - which we know is in fact a very real issue in the setting.

Both DA:O (Soris and whoever-his-wife-is) and DA2 (Hawke and Merrill, once she moves into the estate) make reference to a human-elf couple being alarming. Hell, Merrill moving in with Hawke is apparently horrifying to the neighbours. Not to say it couldn't be a bit more obvious than a codex entry or in the epilogue, but it's around.

#879
whykikyouwhy

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bleetman wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

But also no one freaks out over a human/elf couple - which we know is in fact a very real issue in the setting.

Both DA:O (Soris and whoever-his-wife-is) and DA2 (Hawke and Merrill, once she moves into the estate) make reference to a human-elf couple being alarming. Hell, Merrill moving in with Hawke is apparently horrifying to the neighbours. Not to say it couldn't be a bit more obvious than a codex entry or in the epilogue, but it's around.

Given that we get into the moving-in stage when Hawke is living in Hightown and thus, is considered nobility, perhaps any grumblings or mutterings of discontent are spoken over snifters of Antivan brandy, with noses held arrogantly in the air - "Did you see who Mistress Hawke has on her arm these days? The nerve...she doesn't even wear shoes!"

But it would never (or seldom) be uttered to Hawke's face. Lest a fireball be lobbed or a dagger thrown. 

Agreed that it should have been more evident. A few well-placed sneers would be nice. You see that mostly for being a former refugee. But heck, Kirkwall has plenty of problems that are bubbling to the surface. class seems to be the one most consistently on display.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 21 janvier 2012 - 04:02 .


#880
Fallstar

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Having all four love interest as bisexual is unrealistic. Obviously people don't play Dragon Age for realism, but in my opinion it would be better to have a range of characters who are heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual. Like it or not, your sexuality is a major part of your personality.

The problem with Dragon Age 2 wasn't even that all the love interests were bisexual, its that they were always interested in Hawke regardless of gender. With Anders and Isabella, it is clear even when playing a character that will have a heterosexual relationship with them, that they are bisexual. However, there is nothing to suggest that either Fenris or Merril are bisexual unless you play a character of the same gender. It feels like Bioware tacked on a homosexual romance plot to each of those characters. If all four characters were bisexual and this was evident, and felt like a natural part of the character's personality, I  wouldn't even care that this is statistically unrealistic. 

As I said above, the ideal option to me is having a couple of heterosexual romance options, a couple of bisexual, a couple of homosexual, and a few that aren't romantically interested in hawke full stop. If however Bioware have decided that purely homosexual romances aren't worth the effort, then making all the romances bisexual is probably the next best thing, as long as it doesn't feel like something Bioware have included to be politically correct.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 21 janvier 2012 - 05:55 .


#881
whykikyouwhy

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DuskWarden wrote...

Having all four love interest as bisexual is unrealistic. Obviously people don't play Dragon Age for realism, but in my opinion it would be better to have a range of characters who are heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual. Like it or not, your sexuality is a major part of your personality.

The problem with Dragon Age 2 wasn't even that all the love interests were bisexual, its that they were always interested in Hawke regardless of gender. With Anders and Isabella, it is clear even when playing a character that will have a heterosexual relationship with them, that they are bisexual. However, there is nothing to suggest that either Fenris or Merril are bisexual unless you play a character of the same gender. It feels like Bioware tacked on a homosexual romance plot to each of those characters. If all four characters were bisexual and this was evident, and felt like a natural part of the character's personality, I  wouldn't even care that this is statistically unrealistic. 

As I said above, the ideal option to me is having a couple of heterosexual romance options, a couple of bisexual, a couple of homosexual, and a few that aren't romantically interested in hawke full stop. If however Bioware have decided that purely homosexual romances aren't worth the effort, then making all the romances bisexual is probably the next best thing, as long as it doesn't feel like something Bioware have included to be politically correct.

I would be interested in hearing how 4 bisexual characters/friends/companions is unrealistic. It's quite possible to have 4 people in one's circle of friends that identify as bisexual, or gay - so why would that not be the case for Hawke? (If you assume that the romanceable companions are indeed bisexual. And for all we know, Varric has had male lovers.)

Knowing and adventuring with 4 people who may be bisexual is not where Dragon Age is unrealistic. Now, facing off with dragons...that stretches things a bit. ^_^

#882
bleetman

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DuskWarden wrote...

As I said above, the ideal option to me is having a couple of heterosexual romance options, a couple of bisexual, a couple of homosexual, and a few that aren't romantically interested in hawke full stop.

For a given Hawke of either gender, that's effectively what the situation is.

At any rate, I'll say the same thing I've said in the past with regards to the realism thing: Thedas isn't Earth. It noticeably lacks any particular stigma towards homosexuality, and the primary, socially constructing religion has no apparent concern over the matter. People don't seem to care about sexuality, except when propagation of the species is a concern (elves, dwarves) or there's issues of bloodlines (human nobility). Applying any notions of realism by our standards is inherently flawed.

Modifié par bleetman, 21 janvier 2012 - 06:27 .


#883
Collider

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Well, excepting that gay marriage isn't permitted/recognized by the Chantry.

#884
Fallstar

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whykikyouwhy wrote...

DuskWarden wrote...

Having all four love interest as bisexual is unrealistic. Obviously people don't play Dragon Age for realism, but in my opinion it would be better to have a range of characters who are heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual. Like it or not, your sexuality is a major part of your personality.

The problem with Dragon Age 2 wasn't even that all the love interests were bisexual, its that they were always interested in Hawke regardless of gender. With Anders and Isabella, it is clear even when playing a character that will have a heterosexual relationship with them, that they are bisexual. However, there is nothing to suggest that either Fenris or Merril are bisexual unless you play a character of the same gender. It feels like Bioware tacked on a homosexual romance plot to each of those characters. If all four characters were bisexual and this was evident, and felt like a natural part of the character's personality, I  wouldn't even care that this is statistically unrealistic.

As I said above, the ideal option to me is having a couple of heterosexual romance options, a couple of bisexual, a couple of homosexual, and a few that aren't romantically interested in hawke full stop. If however Bioware have decided that purely homosexual romances aren't worth the effort, then making all the romances bisexual is probably the next best thing, as long as it doesn't feel like something Bioware have included to be politically correct.

I would be interested in hearing how 4 bisexual characters/friends/companions is unrealistic. It's quite possible to have 4 people in one's circle of friends that identify as bisexual, or gay - so why would that not be the case for Hawke? (If you assume that the romanceable companions are indeed bisexual. And for all we know, Varric has had male lovers.)

Knowing and adventuring with 4 people who may be bisexual is not where Dragon Age is unrealistic. Now, facing off with dragons...that stretches things a bit. ^_^


As I said, "people obviously don't play Dragon Age for realism", but I was just making the point. Perhaps I worded it wrong; the chances of every person in a group who it is possible to have a relationship with all being bisexual is unlikely. Eh, I realized as I was writing that I wasn't even bothered about the chances of it happening, it was what I said in the second parapgraph that was the key issue I think.

Modifié par DuskWarden, 21 janvier 2012 - 07:50 .


#885
bleetman

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Collider wrote...

Well, excepting that gay marriage isn't permitted/recognized by the Chantry.

What?

#886
Nejeli

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DuskWarden wrote...

The problem with Dragon Age 2 wasn't even that all the love interests were bisexual, its that they were always interested in Hawke regardless of gender. With Anders and Isabella, it is clear even when playing a character that will have a heterosexual relationship with them, that they are bisexual. However, there is nothing to suggest that either Fenris or Merril are bisexual unless you play a character of the same gender. It feels like Bioware tacked on a homosexual romance plot to each of those characters. If all four characters were bisexual and this was evident, and felt like a natural part of the character's personality, I  wouldn't even care that this is statistically unrealistic. 


Or you could view it as Merrill and Fenris having no interest in relationships until Hawke sparked that interest in them.

Hawke is the first human that Merrill meets, and she's obviously fascinated with him/her. Hawke is also her first real friend, if you friend path her, and the first person to try to get to know her aside from the Keeper. I don't think it's much of a stretch for her to develope romantic feelings, even for a female Hawke. Since there's no apparent stigma on homosexuality in the DA universe, and since Merrill was so sheltered in the first place, I don't see Hawke's gender being an issue. I think that Merrill is Hawke!sexual, at least during the game, because Hawke is the only thing that competes with her obsession with the Eluvian. After she's backed off her obsession a bit, and she isn't romanced, then who knows?

As for Fenris, I don't think he's Hawke!sexual or even bisexual, exactly. I just think there are so many things that Fenris would have to take into account before getting into a relationship with someone (how they treat him, what kind of person they are, whether he likes or respects them, etc) that what their gender is is so far down the list as to be a non-issue. If that makes sense? (Also, didn't his writer say that he wrote Fenris' romance with a male Hawke in mind? Pretty sure I read that somewhere, and if it's true then, no, definitely not just tacked on in this case.)

#887
Ryzaki

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Collider wrote...

Well, excepting that gay marriage isn't permitted/recognized by the Chantry.


Which has nothing to do with sexuality and everything to do with status and property (among other things).

At least from what I remember from that thread which admittedly isn't much. I don't recall the Chantry having anything against s/s relationships though.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 21 janvier 2012 - 09:32 .


#888
BBK4114

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DuskWarden wrote...

Having all four love interest as bisexual is unrealistic. Obviously people don't play Dragon Age for realism, but in my opinion it would be better to have a range of characters who are heterosexual, bisexual and homosexual. Like it or not, your sexuality is a major part of your personality.

The problem with Dragon Age 2 wasn't even that all the love interests were bisexual, its that they were always interested in Hawke regardless of gender. With Anders and Isabella, it is clear even when playing a character that will have a heterosexual relationship with them, that they are bisexual. However, there is nothing to suggest that either Fenris or Merril are bisexual unless you play a character of the same gender. It feels like Bioware tacked on a homosexual romance plot to each of those characters. If all four characters were bisexual and this was evident, and felt like a natural part of the character's personality, I  wouldn't even care that this is statistically unrealistic. 

As I said above, the ideal option to me is having a couple of heterosexual romance options, a couple of bisexual, a couple of homosexual, and a few that aren't romantically interested in hawke full stop. If however Bioware have decided that purely homosexual romances aren't worth the effort, then making all the romances bisexual is probably the next best thing, as long as it doesn't feel like something Bioware have included to be politically correct.




I find this funny because I was reading awhile back on the DA wiki forums where a girl had lunch with Gaider and he said he wrote Fenris specifically with a male romance in mind. Take a look, some of the things he said are amusing. 

dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Xelestial/David_Gaider_Spills_Some_Trivia_to_a_Fangirl

Modifié par BBK4114, 21 janvier 2012 - 09:44 .


#889
Scarlet Rabbi

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Bioware creates fantastic, rich characters, and sexuality should be a unique trait for each of them. I'm not saying they shouldn't have bi-sexual characters; on the contrary, they SHOULD have bi-sexual characters...and gay ones and straight ones.

To leave a character's sexuality open, in essence a blank slate, is robbing the character of completeness. The player should not be able to determine what his/her character's companion's sexuality is, we should be presented with a character, as a whole, and decide how we want to proceed from there.

If a female warden could romance Morrigan in Origins, or a male warden romance Alistar, the characters and overall game wouldn't have the same feel. It's simple. It has nothing to do with tolerance, it's about character design.

Morrigan is a heartless, self-serving woman who will do anything to achieve her goals....she also doesn't find women sexually attractive.

Alistar is brave and determined in the face of darkspawn, and sure of his destiny as a Grey Warden....he also doesn't find men sexually attractive.

Zevran is witty, charming and deadly in battle.....and he'll take either one.

These characters were designed nearly flawlessly, and their personal prefences had a lot to do with that. And it's not like by making character's exclusively gay or straight is excluding anybody, just do another play through with the opposite sex!

In conclusion, game designers should create their art and then present it to us, unapologetically. If they feel having all characters bi-sexual is what their vision is, fine. As long as the story is good, any true gamer wouldn't let that bother them. But for a more human, epic approach, character's should be designed with personal prefences and flaws intact, there is enough room in this world and in virtual worlds for all people: gay, straight and bi.

Modifié par Scarlet Rabbi, 21 janvier 2012 - 10:06 .


#890
whykikyouwhy

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Scarlet Rabbi wrote...

Bioware creates fantastic, rich characters, and sexuality should be a unique trait for each of them. I'm not saying they shouldn't have bi-sexual characters; on the contrary, they SHOULD have bi-sexual characters...and gay ones and straight ones.

To leave a character's sexuality open, in essence a blank slate, is robbing the character of completeness. The player should not be able to determine what his/her character's companion's sexuality is, we should be presented with a character, as a whole, and decide how we want to proceed from there.

 
I don't think that any of the DA2 companions were blank slates, nor does the player determine their sexuality. Rather, the player is presented with the option to romance certain characters, and the characters react according to the decisions taken/dialogue options chosen by the player. 

The companions each have a back story, they have opinions and beliefs, they have desires and goals. But just because they may not make any broad declarations about certain aspects of their lives (like how they identify themselves or who they want to sleep with), it doesn't make them any less complete. People have varying degrees of comfort with what they want to discuss, with revealing how they feel about different things or people - even on the level of who they find attractive. Fenris would probably never openly declare that he may want to bed someone. Merrill probably would, but it would be in an enthusiastic rush of words, followed by some blushing.

  

If a female warden could romance Morrigan in Origins, or a male warden romance Alistar, the characters and overall game wouldn't have the same feel. It's simple. It has nothing to do with tolerance, it's about character design.

Morrigan is a heartless, self-serving woman who will do anything to achieve her goals....she also doesn't find women sexually attractive.

Alistar is brave and determined in the face of darkspawn, and sure of his destiny as a Grey Warden....he also doesn't find men sexually attractive.

Zevran is witty, charming and deadly in battle.....and he'll take either one.

  
I don't recall where Alistair ever said that he doesn't find men attractive. And if he did, that doesn't necessarily mean that he truly feels that way. ^_^

   
These characters were designed nearly flawlessly, and their personal prefences had a lot to do with that. And it's not like by making character's exclusively gay or straight is excluding anybody, just do another play through with the opposite sex!

In conclusion, game designers should create their art and then present it to us, unapologetically. If they feel having all characters bi-sexual is what their vision is, fine. As long as the story is good, any true gamer wouldn't let that bother them. But for a more human, epic approach, character's should be designed with personal prefences and flaws intact, there is enough room in this world and in virtual worlds for all people: gay, straight and bi.

I agree wholeheartedly with the last bit there - there is indeed plenty of room in the world for all its people, but perhaps without having to designate those labels. People are people, they love who they love. That's our common bond. Which may be the point you were going for, I'm not sure.

The DA2 companions weren't lacking in humanity, imo - they had flaws, they had preferences. And maybe for them, as others have said before, sexuality (while an important aspect) was not the main focus of any romance path. It was more vital that they found someone who understood them, was loyal, was kind or funny, etc. Which is not to say that gender was not a factor, but it was not a main factor. 

#891
ChickenDownUnder

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syllogi wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was always a bit on the fence about this. On one hand, I appreciate my main character not having quite so limited romance options by making the characters bi.

On the other, it doesn't make as much sense when pretending to treat the characters as uh, 'real people.' I suppose what I am trying to say is that if Bioware really wants to have characters to have genuine personalities that make it easy to pretend in-game that they're people, well then they can't be so easy swayed in their likes and dislikes unless they're portrayed as weak willed. As in, they must have their own identity that is not at the complete whim of the player, and sexual identity is a part of that.

Try telling somebody you know that you like them but it would be better off if they were gay and watch what happens.

And plz post pictures.


Oh my.

It is not "weak willed" to be attracted to both men and women.  It does not make their personalities less genuine.  A bisexual person is not "swayed" to change their sexual orientation.  Being attracted to both genders *is* their sexual orientation.

Try telling a bisexual person that they would be better off if they "chose" to be either homosexual or heterosexual, and watch what happens.  


Let's try not to get all confrontational and see more into words than what is really there. You might hurt yourself.

I never said being bi is bad, I implied it was weak willed if a person claims to like a certain sex only because that just so happens to be what another person wants. As it pertains to DAII and as it is often said on these forums; to be Hawke-sexual. Where their sexual orientation has more to do with what the player wants than what the character wants/is.

#892
Scarlet Rabbi

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@ChickenDownUnder
You make a great point, and put it more eloquently than I could.

I said companions felt incomplete without a set sexuality to them(be it bi, straight or gay), and what I was trying to say was that a companion's sexuality shouldn't be dependent on Hawke, which is exactly what it is in DA2.

The companions aren't really bi-sexual in DA2, they are whatever Hawke wants them to be, thus, their sexuality is really a blank slate for the player to fill in. With the exception of Anders. If you romance him with a female Hawke it could be said he is the only 'true' bi-sexual companion.

The other companions (excluding Aveline) show no attraction to either sex until romance with Hawke is brought up, then they are automatically attracted to whatever Hawke's gender is. Even Isabela, who is obviously sex-crazed, shows no attraction to a specific sex until romance with Hawke is brought up.

Some can argue that her conversation with Merrill in the Hanged Man, where she refers to members of her crew having 'her naked with her ass in the air' refers to hetero-sexual intercourse; but to me that's too vague.

Having companions sexuality set in stone is not a bad thing, it adds to the richness of the story, more 'freedom', especially in this sense, isn't always the right thing to do, story-wise.

And when I say 'set in stone' I don't mean everyone has to be either gay or straight, there can bi-sexual companions too but the point is to not make the sexuality of the companion dependent on the player....which it blatantly is in DA2.

#893
jlb524

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ChickenDownUnder wrote...

I never said being bi is bad, I implied it was weak willed if a person claims to like a certain sex only because that just so happens to be what another person wants. As it pertains to DAII and as it is often said on these forums; to be Hawke-sexual. Where their sexual orientation has more to do with what the player wants than what the character wants/is.


All romances have more to do with what the player wants and pretty much nothing to do with what the character wants.

Let's consider Morrigan (who was straight or whatever)...she'll romance any MaleWarden regardless of anything which practically means she has zero standards and will jump in bed with whatever guy approaches her.

#894
Wulfram

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Ryzaki wrote...

I don't recall the Chantry having anything against s/s relationships though.


Current Divine certainly doesn't appear to.  Except when damn bards steal your secret documents.

#895
Ryzaki

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Wulfram wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't recall the Chantry having anything against s/s relationships though.


Current Divine certainly doesn't appear to.  Except when damn bards steal your secret documents.


Can't really blame the Divine in that scenario though. :lol:

#896
syllogi

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ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Let's try not to get all confrontational and see more into words than what is really there. You might hurt yourself.

I never said being bi is bad, I implied it was weak willed if a person claims to like a certain sex only because that just so happens to be what another person wants. As it pertains to DAII and as it is often said on these forums; to be Hawke-sexual. Where their sexual orientation has more to do with what the player wants than what the character wants/is.


I actually find pointing out the obvious hangups certain people have about their video game LIs being tainted by the "ghey" quite relaxing, thanks.  :)

If Merrill or Fenris had given any impression of preferring the opposite sex exclusively before meeting Hawke, and then there was some sort of indication that Merrill or Fenris *really* don't have any interest in same sex partners other than Hawke, then maaaaaaybe there would be something there.  But the fact is, bisexual people "switch teams" all the time for the right person.  Maybe they haven't broadcast their sexual orientation to the world before that point, and it comes as a surprise to friends and family, but that doesn't invalidate their attraction.

Making the characters "Hawke-sexual" is no more character-ruining than someone simply coming out as bisexual for the right person.  I still don't see where that makes Merrill or Fenris "lesser" as characters.

#897
HolyAvenger

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Single target sexuality is a pretty common trope really.

#898
Malanu

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PrinceLionheart wrote...

That's my problem with the DA2 romances. Not that everyone was bi, but that nobody seemed like they'd be able to provide a stable romance. Fenris may be the exception.

Well my romaning of Isabella ended with her and Hawke sailing off into the sunset together. Not to mention that all the romatic partners available are quite frankly broken people with enough baggage to save the airline industry! Lets look shall we: Isabella... SHE DOESN'T WEAR PANTS OR A SKIRT (ok that might actually be a plus !:devil:)!!!! Fenris... Anger issues and self loathing, Merril... Blood magic/Aluvian addiction ("I'm in control"), Anders... multiple personality disorder! Can you even romance Sebastian? Even so... religious zealot with confidence issues!

With this batch of romantic interests the Mabari seems like the wisest choice to me!:P:blink: Apparently no normal person want to be in a relationship with the hero!!!

#899
syllogi

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HolyAvenger wrote...

Single target sexuality is a pretty common trope really.


If you're calling portraying characters as heterosexual or homosexual a trope, then sure. But I can't recall any tv, movies or games where a character making a point of declaring their single target sexuality has been a part of the plot...not to say it doesn't exist, but I'd be interested in examples of how it can be done without being heavy handed and extraneous to the rest of the story. 

Modifié par syllogi, 24 janvier 2012 - 01:53 .


#900
HolyAvenger

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By single target I mean a character established as sexually interested in only person, regardless of gender or one person of the gender that they are not generally attracted to. 

http://tvtropes.org/...TargetSexuality
http://tvtropes.org/...IfItsYouItsOkay

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 24 janvier 2012 - 03:26 .