922 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Single target sexuality is a pretty common trope really.

I don't think what was described here:

syllogi wrote...
If Merrill or Fenris had given any impression of preferring the opposite sex exclusively before meeting Hawke, and then there was some sort of indication that Merrill or Fenris *really* don't have any interest in same sex partners other than Hawke, then maaaaaaybe there would be something there.  But the fact is, bisexual people "switch teams" all the time for the right person.  Maybe they haven't broadcast their sexual orientation to the world before that point, and it comes as a surprise to friends and family, but that doesn't invalidate their attraction.

Is single-target sexuality.

When I think of 'single-target' sexuality, I think of it as person X possibly only being attracted to person Y.

Example:  Bill has never been attracted to anyone (male or female) until he met Marsha and this is the only person he could fathom being with.  It's all about "Marsha Marsha Marsha!"

Now, let's say Bill has always considered himself heterosexual and attracted to women but meets an awesome, cool guy named Steve and feels something romantic/sexual towards him.  Bill is learning something new about himself ("hey, I could go for guys too") or it might be that his attitudes have changed about love and romance (perhaps earlier in his life, finding a wife/marriage/2.5 children/dog/white picket fence was his ideal romantic arrangement.  Even though he was always attracted to men, he'd never date one because of this desire... but now that isn't as important to him anymore and he's more open to pursue a romance with a male).  I don't see this as single-target sexuality towards Steve.

It's not necessarily sexuality that's changing in a person but attitudes towards their own sexuality (I know this from personal experience).

This is all hypothetical, but let's say Fenris is attracted to both men and women.  However due to his former master's sexual abuse he has a negative attitude towards being involved with a male.  This could result in him only pursuing sexual/romantic relationships with women even though he also likes men.   MaleHawke comes around and shows him something different and his attitude towards men changes.

Something similar could be said with Merrill, assuming that Dalish clans are all about procreating elven babies.  If so, then her attitude towards finding herself in a relationship with a woman would differ from her attitude towards finding herself in a relationship with a man based on societal pressures.  However, upon leaving the clan and their expectations for her behind, her attitude towards romancing a woman (and a human woman at that) can change.

Modifié par jlb524, 24 janvier 2012 - 04:11 .

[HolyAvenger]

If that attraction is only there for one person, then it feels like single-target sexuality to me. I'm not talking about anyone's real-life experience, but how it comes across when used as a romance-story device.

Your last two paragraphs are nothing but speculation of course.

[jlb524]

Well, then BW uses it a lot regardless of sexuality. We typically only see the LI attracted to the PC.

[Wulfram]

All of the DA2 romances show attraction to people other than the PC.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 janvier 2012 - 04:50 .

[HolyAvenger]

I agree, its what makes a lot of the romances feel awful and flat, and why really like it when they occasionally break the mould (Aveline/Samara).

Yes DA2 is better in that regard, depending on gameplay choices. Its long timespan can make it worse though- it really depends. The shorter timespan of the other games make it less of a big deal.

[jlb524]

DP

Modifié par jlb524, 24 janvier 2012 - 04:59 .

[jlb524]

Wulfram wrote...

All of the DA2 romances show attraction to people other than the PC.

I mean, generally speaking for BW romances.

Mass Effect LIs are probably the worst if you consider 'single-target sexuality' to be a bad thing.

The Bastila KotOR romance had this 'issue' as well.  Even the Juhani romance in that game (you can find out about a past lover of hers but only if you kill her...but then you can't exactly romance her in that situation XD)

Um....DA:O Alistair is another example.

Modifié par jlb524, 24 janvier 2012 - 05:00 .

[Silfren]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

syllogi wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was always a bit on the fence about this. On one hand, I appreciate my main character not having quite so limited romance options by making the characters bi.

On the other, it doesn't make as much sense when pretending to treat the characters as uh, 'real people.' I suppose what I am trying to say is that if Bioware really wants to have characters to have genuine personalities that make it easy to pretend in-game that they're people, well then they can't be so easy swayed in their likes and dislikes unless they're portrayed as weak willed. As in, they must have their own identity that is not at the complete whim of the player, and sexual identity is a part of that.

Try telling somebody you know that you like them but it would be better off if they were gay and watch what happens.

And plz post pictures.

Oh my.

It is not "weak willed" to be attracted to both men and women.  It does not make their personalities less genuine.  A bisexual person is not "swayed" to change their sexual orientation.  Being attracted to both genders *is* their sexual orientation.

Try telling a bisexual person that they would be better off if they "chose" to be either homosexual or heterosexual, and watch what happens.  

Let's try not to get all confrontational and see more into words than what is really there. You might hurt yourself.

I never said being bi is bad, I implied it was weak willed if a person claims to like a certain sex only because that just so happens to be what another person wants. As it pertains to DAII and as it is often said on these forums; to be Hawke-sexual. Where their sexual orientation has more to do with what the player wants than what the character wants/is.

Yeah, um, no.  You didn't imply any such thing.  You didn't say, or imply, anything whatsoever about a person claiming to like a certain sex only because they think that's what someone else wants.  You said NOTHING to suggest that. 

I believe your words were, oh, let me see, "well then they can't be so easy swayed in their likes and dislikes
unless they're portrayed as weak willed."

That, right there, is what you typed.  And it suggests that you think being bisexual means being weak-willed.  You're basically saying that if a person is attracted to a man, but then a woman shows up that they find themselves sexually attracted to, it means they're "easily swayed" or "weak-willed."  Or likewise if it's a person attracted to women, or a certain woman, who finds themselves interested in a man that comes along.

You're completely dismissing the possibility that a person could simply like what they like, that their attraction to someone could have no bearing on ANY person's gender at all, and summing it up as someone just being capricious and flighty and unable to make up their mind.

[gingergen]

I'm not slogging through all 37 pages of this thread, but I like the ability to romance all the characters, regardless of PC gender.

Yeah, it's unrealistic that all the NPCs want to get down with Hawke, but let's face it, this is a world full of demons and darkspawn that you kill with magic. That's not very "realistic" either. Games are about escapism, and that can include the ability to romance whoever you want.

IMO, if you click the wrong thing and end up with an unwanted romance, you should go back to an old save, just like you do if you make a mistake during a battle or plot point.

[ladyofpayne]

Anders is the sexiest man ever. Rivalmance and this kiss, AWWW!

[ChickenDownUnder]

Silfren wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

syllogi wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was always a bit on the fence about this. On one hand, I appreciate my main character not having quite so limited romance options by making the characters bi.

On the other, it doesn't make as much sense when pretending to treat the characters as uh, 'real people.' I suppose what I am trying to say is that if Bioware really wants to have characters to have genuine personalities that make it easy to pretend in-game that they're people, well then they can't be so easy swayed in their likes and dislikes unless they're portrayed as weak willed. As in, they must have their own identity that is not at the complete whim of the player, and sexual identity is a part of that.

Try telling somebody you know that you like them but it would be better off if they were gay and watch what happens.

And plz post pictures.

Oh my.

It is not "weak willed" to be attracted to both men and women.  It does not make their personalities less genuine.  A bisexual person is not "swayed" to change their sexual orientation.  Being attracted to both genders *is* their sexual orientation.

Try telling a bisexual person that they would be better off if they "chose" to be either homosexual or heterosexual, and watch what happens.  

Let's try not to get all confrontational and see more into words than what is really there. You might hurt yourself.

I never said being bi is bad, I implied it was weak willed if a person claims to like a certain sex only because that just so happens to be what another person wants. As it pertains to DAII and as it is often said on these forums; to be Hawke-sexual. Where their sexual orientation has more to do with what the player wants than what the character wants/is.

Yeah, um, no.  You didn't imply any such thing.  You didn't say, or imply, anything whatsoever about a person claiming to like a certain sex only because they think that's what someone else wants.  You said NOTHING to suggest that. 

I believe your words were, oh, let me see, "well then they can't be so easy swayed in their likes and dislikes
unless they're portrayed as weak willed."

That, right there, is what you typed.  And it suggests that you think being bisexual means being weak-willed.  You're basically saying that if a person is attracted to a man, but then a woman shows up that they find themselves sexually attracted to, it means they're "easily swayed" or "weak-willed."  Or likewise if it's a person attracted to women, or a certain woman, who finds themselves interested in a man that comes along.

You're completely dismissing the possibility that a person could simply like what they like, that their attraction to someone could have no bearing on ANY person's gender at all, and summing it up as someone just being capricious and flighty and unable to make up their mind.

I sometimes think that people argue just for the sake of arguing. I mean, you even quoted me and everything, so how can you really claim I meant something different. But I'll bite.

If you actually read the whole sentence and those that adjoin it, you would have realized I meant exactly as I said; that somebody is weak-willed if they let OTHER people descide on their sexuality. You know, ' they must have their own identity that is not at the complete whim of the player (IE, somebody else), and sexual identity is a part of that.'

Character 1: So I think you would be better off liking girls.
Character 2: Okay, because you told me so, I will now only like girls.
??? Profit ???

= Bad

= Not a good idea when trying to portray characters with their own personalities. Especially strong-willed characters. No way that it just so happens that all the romance options just happen to be bi, or gay, or straight; that's unrealistic. Personally feel that this was handled better in Origins.

Nowhere did I say being bi is bad. Would be quite silly to say such a thing as somehow being teh eavils, considering that I AM bi.

[Plaintiff]

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Silfren wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

syllogi wrote...

ChickenDownUnder wrote...

Was always a bit on the fence about this. On one hand, I appreciate my main character not having quite so limited romance options by making the characters bi.

On the other, it doesn't make as much sense when pretending to treat the characters as uh, 'real people.' I suppose what I am trying to say is that if Bioware really wants to have characters to have genuine personalities that make it easy to pretend in-game that they're people, well then they can't be so easy swayed in their likes and dislikes unless they're portrayed as weak willed. As in, they must have their own identity that is not at the complete whim of the player, and sexual identity is a part of that.

Try telling somebody you know that you like them but it would be better off if they were gay and watch what happens.

And plz post pictures.

Oh my.

It is not "weak willed" to be attracted to both men and women.  It does not make their personalities less genuine.  A bisexual person is not "swayed" to change their sexual orientation.  Being attracted to both genders *is* their sexual orientation.

Try telling a bisexual person that they would be better off if they "chose" to be either homosexual or heterosexual, and watch what happens.  

Let's try not to get all confrontational and see more into words than what is really there. You might hurt yourself.

I never said being bi is bad, I implied it was weak willed if a person claims to like a certain sex only because that just so happens to be what another person wants. As it pertains to DAII and as it is often said on these forums; to be Hawke-sexual. Where their sexual orientation has more to do with what the player wants than what the character wants/is.

Yeah, um, no.  You didn't imply any such thing.  You didn't say, or imply, anything whatsoever about a person claiming to like a certain sex only because they think that's what someone else wants.  You said NOTHING to suggest that. 

I believe your words were, oh, let me see, "well then they can't be so easy swayed in their likes and dislikes
unless they're portrayed as weak willed."

That, right there, is what you typed.  And it suggests that you think being bisexual means being weak-willed.  You're basically saying that if a person is attracted to a man, but then a woman shows up that they find themselves sexually attracted to, it means they're "easily swayed" or "weak-willed."  Or likewise if it's a person attracted to women, or a certain woman, who finds themselves interested in a man that comes along.

You're completely dismissing the possibility that a person could simply like what they like, that their attraction to someone could have no bearing on ANY person's gender at all, and summing it up as someone just being capricious and flighty and unable to make up their mind.

I sometimes think that people argue just for the sake of arguing. I mean, you even quoted me and everything, so how can you really claim I meant something different. But I'll bite.

If you actually read the whole sentence and those that adjoin it, you would have realized I meant exactly as I said; that somebody is weak-willed if they let OTHER people descide on their sexuality. You know, ' they must have their own identity that is not at the complete whim of the player (IE, somebody else), and sexual identity is a part of that.'

Character 1: So I think you would be better off liking girls.
Character 2: Okay, because you told me so, I will now only like girls.
??? Profit ???

= Bad

= Not a good idea when trying to portray characters with their own personalities. Especially strong-willed characters. No way that it just so happens that all the romance options just happen to be bi, or gay, or straight; that's unrealistic. Personally feel that this was handled better in Origins.

Nowhere did I say being bi is bad. Would be quite silly to say such a thing as somehow being teh eavils, considering that I AM bi.

Except that's not how DA2 works at all. At no point does Hawke tell any other character what gender they should prefer. They reciprocate his affections, they do not have sex with him on command.

[syllogi]

^^^Pretty much this.

I can understand having theoretical complaints about how an "everyone is bi" system would work. But, other than the people who hated having even one flirt from Anders (and seriously? that's so easy to bypass), what is wrong with how the romances were presented in DA2? I'd be interested in reading some actual examples of how bisexuality destroyed Merrill, Fenris, Anders, or Isabela in the eyes of players.

[Wulfram]

This isn't directly connected to the characters being bisexual, but I do think there's a mild problem with the flirt icons making the presence of romance content a little too obvious.

With just plain text, it's fairly easy to ignore, but the giant heart icons draw your attention and can maybe be off putting if you're wanting a purely platonic relationship.

[whykikyouwhy]

But wasn't one of the complaints with text only was that the selected dialogue option was "misread" or "misinterpreted?" That the companion drew the wrong conclusion and suddenly the PC was having to back out of a potentially awkward situation? I think by having the heart icons in place, yes, romance content is called out, but it allows the player to act more in line with the game he/she may want to play - one with romance or one without.

You could be right though, Wulfram - if anything, perhaps because there are a few points in various conversations where the icon is present, it may in the very least give the impression that romances are a much larger part of the game than they are. Of course, you could also turn that around and say that the game is filled with snark. (Well, my games were...but that was intentional.)

[Wulfram]

I'm not saying that overall the heart icons aren't good and don't make the game less annoying. Just that they may also have the side effect of making the romances harder to ignore for those who'd prefer to.

[whykikyouwhy]

Oh, I didn't read your post as saying the icons were a negative thing. Rather I agree that for some, they may have given a certain impression. I just don't know where a better compromise could have been made.

[bleetman]

whykikyouwhy wrote...

But wasn't one of the complaints with text only was that the selected dialogue option was "misread" or "misinterpreted?" That the companion drew the wrong conclusion and suddenly the PC was having to back out of a potentially awkward situation?

That was one of my biggest annoyances, yes. Trying to not get Alistair to fall for my various female wardens whilst simultaneously being friendly and supportive took a whole lot of trial and error. Of course, it might not have been such an annoyance had the game not treated active romance flags as a sign of mutual interest, causing Leliana to, on more than one occasion, heart-brokenly accuse me of being in love with him and leading her on and fbjahbkabbaolghawhy.

The thing with DA2 is that the heart icon isn't so much a "press this to initiate romance" thing. There's a fair few times when it's an option but doesn't result in such - during act one, against Aveline, on random elves, etc etc. It's a "Hawke is going to start hitting on people if you press this" option. I don't consider knowing what tone my character is going to take in advance to be a bad thing. I'll just go back and reload a save if my character says something I didn't mean to say anyway.

[edit]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not saying that overall the heart icons aren't good and don't make the game less annoying. Just that they may also have the side effect of making the romances harder to ignore for those who'd prefer to.

...Oh. Well.

...

Modifié par bleetman, 26 janvier 2012 - 05:52 .

[Silfren]

Wulfram wrote...

This isn't directly connected to the characters being bisexual, but I do think there's a mild problem with the flirt icons making the presence of romance content a little too obvious.

With just plain text, it's fairly easy to ignore, but the giant heart icons draw your attention and can maybe be off putting if you're wanting a purely platonic relationship.

That doesn't make any sense, though.  The heart icons make it possible for players to not have to worry about choosing a line they perceive as innocuous/platonic, only to discover it was actually a flirt line that triggered a romance.

If all people had were lines of text with nothing to indicate what that line represented, then we would be swamped with homophobes freaking out that Anders came on to them.  Actually, scratch that, we'd be swamped with far more than we already are, because plenty of men already have complained about such.

Which may be more of an argument that the text lines need to more obviously reflect not only the verbatim dialogue that the PC actually says, rather than being summaries that often don't come anywhere close to being what they intially hint at, but also that any plain text options are written so that they have one clearly defined tone and meaning, rather than two or more distinctive ones. 

[culletron1]

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not saying that overall the heart icons aren't good and don't make the game less annoying. Just that they may also have the side effect of making the romances harder to ignore for those who'd prefer to.

Well from my point of view they did make the game more annoying... I personally don't want to be hand held through the romances in the game. I want to figure out for myself what kind of reaction my convo choices will have. 

I hated those things and I suspect the only reason any of those icons are in there is because the dialog wheel was implemented so poorly that no one had any idea what their hawke was going to say based off of the text options. 

[esper]

culletron1 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

I'm not saying that overall the heart icons aren't good and don't make the game less annoying. Just that they may also have the side effect of making the romances harder to ignore for those who'd prefer to.

Well from my point of view they did make the game more annoying... I personally don't want to be hand held through the romances in the game. I want to figure out for myself what kind of reaction my convo choices will have. 

I hated those things and I suspect the only reason any of those icons are in there is because the dialog wheel was implemented so poorly that no one had any idea what their hawke was going to say based off of the text options. 

You are not handheld, but with the tone indication the heart icons needed to be there simply to say Hawke wants to flirt now,  It wasn't an autmoatic romance either, because they were present with Varric and Aveline who can't be romanced and not all are necessary for the romances.

I would have liked if the flirty Hawke had been constant option, though since flirty personality actually is an archetype as well as and there exist people who are more and less flirts with other people as an reflex, not all are using jokes to deflect after all, some people are just very intimate in the way they express themself...

[Ricvenart]

I just wanted to amend something I said earlier, regarding the Anders "mistake", actually seems to fit where the conversation is.

After finally getting though ME 1 (both male and female playthoughs) and starting ME 2, I noticed it was something done in both of them as well, you cannot be nice without flirting and ultimately feeling like a jerk for turning them down or trying to be nice. You experience it with both Liara in 1 where checking up on her and asking if shes okay leads to you embrassing her because she interprets it as wanting to get in her pants and then again in 2 with Jack, checking on her makes you a creepy and get the reply of "I'm not interested buzz off" or something. Admittedly prior to being told that I did say I was interested but frankly there was no context for the answer, a heart/thumbs up/thumbs down would fix that not to mention having consistant choices and spoken lines, so often I pick something thinking it's positive or friendly and will spout some other line with a totally different context, Choice of Are you ok? become "Report (name), now". In context to this DA II's "mistake" of not being able to turn Anders down without being a bit of jerk suddenly doesn't seem as bad.

And to add to the repeated defense of betrayal of Character, frankly it's laughable neither Kaidan or Ashley ever imply a phobia of this but they do both have reasons to resist it, Kaidan in particular regarding not wanting to "muddy" things up. But more then that Bioware repeatedly does actually betray their characters in one at least (need more playthoughs of 2 to check) where for the sake of having one pro and one con teammate they have lines that switch, Kaidan switching from not making a whole species pay for others mistakes to you should, Liara's "they're the hearts and minds of trillions" to "it's bigger then the concil". Both invalidateding the choices you make when talking to them and the choices you make of your team, why force a team to change attitudes when they may be picked because of what thier attitudes are. Worse still on that front is the inconsistant choices and ordering of type, Paragon largely being anti cerberus but suddenly when speaking to your past romance and team mate that hates them it becomes pro, leaving you unable to be consistant with your own character.

So for the sake of choice for players them being open sexually is small fish, besides which it's your choice and game just cause a character is homosexual in my game doesn't mean it's so in yours and vice versa, just Like how my Shepard choose to save the concil not to earn the hate of the galaxy and destabalize it but gain respect doesn't mean other peoples shepards have to do the same, there has to be a canon to keep a story together but ultimately it's a game where you have choices of your actions and lines, if you want to start removing that for the sake of cannon you might as well go watch a film or read a book.

Know this is a DA forum but I'm mearly using ME as a context for a game, series and developer, with the 3rd one coming out soon in a way it may act as a testing ground for the 3rd game of DA especially in regard to how they handle providing a m/m choice.

[esper]

@Ricvanart please use a da example because I am not sure what you want to say. My Hawke certainly feels consisten and there are no paragon and renegade choice in da, so I am not sure I understand your example.