1113 réponses à ce sujet

[streamlock]

I"m not going to plow through 40 pages of responses, but...I have to disagree with the whole concept of the OP.

(I'm sure my release timescales are a bit off), but you mine as well be asking how the next Bad Boys sequel is going to be viewed in the post Saving Private Ryan era. Sure, you can make broad comparisons like overall sound, soundtrack, special effects-what have you. But your going to run into some serious issues going any deeper than that. They are two totally different beasts.

To address your specific points. Limited exploration, corridor shooting etc. Was ME1 and ME2 that bad of an experience for you? Or do they somehow only suck for you after you have played Skyrim?

There is only so much that can be done with the UT, what is it, 2003 engine they are working from to begin with. Secondly, I don't have a problem with it being developed as a sequel to ME2 while improving on the formula and polishing up a bit. In fact, I think that is what everyone is expecting, and ultimately wants at this point.

Yes, Skyrim is an awesome game in it's own right, and sure I'd like to see an equally fully realized world in the Sci-Fi genre with Bioware's signature writing, storytelling, and character development as much as anybody. But ME3 is not, and should not be that game. I think your comparison would be better served in asking how development of the franchise past ME3 needs to compare itself in a post RPG 2011 landscape.

[Alex_SM]

streamlock wrote...

(I'm sure my release timescales are a bit off), but you mine as well be asking how the next Bad Boys sequel is going to be viewed in the post Saving Private Ryan era. Sure, you can make broad comparisons like overall sound, soundtrack, special effects-what have you. But your going to run into some serious issues going any deeper than that. They are two totally different beasts.

Well, Michael Bay (director of Bad Boys) has been clearly influenced by Saving Private Ryan. Obviously not in the story telling aspects, but in the way of filming action sequences. 

In fact nearly everyone has been influenced by Saving Private Ryan. For example, Lord of the Rings battle sequences are reprises of the Omaha Beach assault. Ok, settings are different, textures are different, characters are different, world is different, but the way everything is protrayed and filmed is the same. 

There is actually a post Saving Private Ryan era. 

And be sure now we are living a post-Transformers era (2,7 Billion $ between 3 movies, being the last 4th all-time), with some movies every year trying to be the next Transformers (Battleship the next). And lots of directors trying to be like Michael Bay (that's been hapenning since 1996, first example being Con Air). 

[streamlock]

Alex_SM wrote...

Well, Michael Bay (director of Bad Boys) has been clearly influenced by Saving Private Ryan. Obviously not in the story telling aspects, but in the way of filming action sequences. 

In fact nearly everyone has been influenced by Saving Private Ryan. For example, Lord of the Rings battle sequences are reprises of the Omaha Beach assault. Ok, settings are different, textures are different, characters are different, world is different, but the way everything is protrayed and filmed is the same. 

There is actually a post Saving Private Ryan era. 

And be sure now we are living a post-Transformers era (2,7 Billion $ between 3 movies, being the last 4th all-time), with some movies every year trying to be the next Transformers (Battleship the next). And lots of directors trying to be like Michael Bay (that's been hapenning since 1996, first example being Con Air). 

On some level I agree. The doctors have already stated that looking foward (Dragon Age) they are taking a hard look at Skyrim and the other RPG/Hybrid entertainment products that have come out.  And post ME3, I imagine that will have to be done for that franchise as well.

And yes, comparisons are inevitable.  Personally, playing through ME3 and having nearly every NPC just stand in one place for eternity (beyond maybe some scripted event) and wait for you to click on them 'till the end of days is going to make the world so static as to seem a retro gaming experience in comparison....But I don't think those comparisons, even in my case, will warrent a community bashing, or lack of vision from Bioware.  ME3 is what it is, a sequal to ME2.  I did'nt play through Starcraft 2 with Company of Heroes rose colored glasses on, and ended up enjoying it for what it was. (even after personally bashing Blizzard for sticking with an archaic design before launch)

ME3, should be at this point nearly fully feature locked. (It would bode poorly for the game if it was not).  But looking foward, yeah-it is a post Skyrim era.  And you hit the nail on the head bringing up the gross earnings-running on the film comparison.  Skyrim has made, is making a boat load of cash.  And THAT, is what really matters, and running with the theme, what matters to Bioware in the post EA aquisition era.  Past ME3, the 2011 year in gaming is going to shape things to come, and if the ME team is smart-they will take what works (And FFS, it is not lockpicking minigames, quick time events, and rail sections!) in these new games, and work it into thier repertoire.

That being said, I'm looking forward to ME3, in all its UT2003 (now retro) charm.



On a side note, to give ME credit where credit is due-We are in a post ME era of gaming.  To this day you can see other developers comparing their facial animations and dialogue sequences to Bioware and the ME franchise.  Though the guys/gals at OC3 entertainment probably deserve some props for it that is rarely acknowleged.

[Alex_SM]

I'm not saying Bioware games will turn into sandboxes or Bethesdas copycats, but I'm pretty sure lots of games in the next years will try bigger environments and will try to give more illusion of freedom.

The same as lots of them copy nowadays the corridor-cinematic-corridor esque of Call of Duty, or the Gears of War cover system, or the health regeneration.

And of course ME influences things. It doesn't have a huge influence (like COD), but maybe Bioware achieves that level of impact with The Old Republic (which uses lots of ME details, and it's having a great opening), or the next ME (even if lots of us are unhappy, most will end up buying it to see the end of the story, and like half a million pre-orders 3 months before release are telling us it's going to be a huge success). 

Modifié par Alex_SM, 08 janvier 2012 - 05:14 .

[argonian persona]

I think BioWare games will see more sandbox elements. There is proof this is about to happen

[abaris]

argonian persona wrote...

I think BioWare games will see more sandbox elements. There is proof this is about to happen

Like what?

[Nashiktal]

Just dumping sandbox elements into a game doesn't make it better.

Skyrim is great at what it does (even if it is a shallow shadow of its former entries) but its an entirely different kind of game than the bioware types. Mass effect, Dragon age, neither of them have ever been a sandbox. The closest to sandbox in ME were the explorable planets, and as much as I liked the mako the planets themselves were boring and pointless.

This happens after every new game. The game gets released, people have fun, and then they want to make other games just like it to "improve" it. Bioware can learn a few things from bethesda and other developers, but not by changing the genre of their games.

[Ottemis]

Mr_Mole wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Opinions are fine, it's the whole 'your opinion sucks' mentality, simply put. People have a tendency to be nigh abusive while airing their opinions and that doesn't really promote healthy conversation.

Oh, puh-lease. It was only a bit of harmless joking around on my part. I own all major platforms and the game, Skyrim, currently the topic of this discussion that you are now derailing further, I simply pulled on some strings and watched the BioDrones go haywire. How was I supposed to know that mature adults could regress to a mental age of 5 after a snarky comment here and there? *shrugs*

Was it not obvious at some point that I wasn't being serious, is sarcasm truly that much of a lost art-form??

For what it's worth, Slimgrin, I'm sorry for belittling the PC and reducing the entire thread to petty mud-slinging, okay? Every platform has its place, for good or ill, and life's too short to bicker over inanimate objects, anyway.

It's a general statement, it's just what happens 'here', asin on the BSN and in this thread specificly.

[Turian_punk_75]

I haven't read all of this thread as I'm using my android device on a train, but I'm gonna ' throw my two quid in anyhow

Post Skyrim era? I'd have used post GoW3 myself but hey, I know where you're coming from OP.

Yeah, I'm a little concerned about the lack of RPG elements that may apply to ME3, so far the footage I've seen it's all be TPS style gameplay.

Personally, I can handle that, I do enjoy shooters after all. I did not buy ME1 and 2 for the RPG, I bought them because they were good games with fantastic plots, user friendly gameplay and a rewarding quest with the bonus of character customisation, a class system and a believable (and now well established) backstory.

As I've said in a previous thread, The quality of the last two games would act as sufficient biulding blocks to kill off the movie industry. The character acting was movie quality and with the degree of control the player has over the plot is amazing.

I'm hoping the final installment contains some RPG elements, but I'll still buy the game and not shed a tear if it doesn't.

[AlanC9]

streamlock wrote...
Personally, playing through ME3 and having nearly every NPC just stand in one place for eternity (beyond maybe some scripted event) and wait for you to click on them 'till the end of days is going to make the world so static as to seem a retro gaming experience in comparison..

Doesn't that feature come and go in RPGs? I remember it from ..... Ultima VI? Not sure if it was invented there, though.

I remember a lot of NWN1 and 2 mods trying to do this, but they got marked down in the fan ratings by annoyed players who didn't like having to search for the NPC they wanted to talk to. Maybe RPG player tastes run in cycles.

[streamlock]

AlanC9 wrote...

Doesn't that feature come and go in RPGs? I remember it from ..... Ultima VI? Not sure if it was invented there, though.

I remember a lot of NWN1 and 2 mods trying to do this, but they got marked down in the fan ratings by annoyed players who didn't like having to search for the NPC they wanted to talk to. Maybe RPG player tastes run in cycles.

Not so much a taste thing as a tech thing.  The ability to track quests/NPC's via map/minimap/compass what have you has lessened the annoyance of the NPC hunt (though it still exhists).  Hard core old school purists would probably consider that some form of metagaming and the little viens start to pulse visably on their forheads in rage-but then again they get pissed everytime your character jumps and the game doesn't do a dex roll check to see if you fall on your face.  Take that as you will.  (Though I think having your character or NPC actually trip up during a heated moment would add some character)

Also, given the load times of some earlier titles (load times can still be an issue on the consoles depending on the title), it could get downright tiresome if you had to zone 2-3 times to hunt down, or get to a specific NPC/Vendor.  Alot easier just to pile them all in some common zone, and keep them there.

The wait/sleep/meditate/twiddle thumbs command also helps.

[KotorEffect3]

argonian persona wrote...

I think BioWare games will see more sandbox elements. There is proof this is about to happen

I've got nothing against Bethesda as I loved both Oblivion and Skyrim (not crazy about fallout 3 but that has more to do with setting than anything else) but why do some Bethesda fanboys seem to think every game needs to be a sandbox game to be good?  I always see them complaining about bioware games being to linear.  They don't understand that bioware games are storybased games based on an interactive story and group combat.  A sandbox setting doesn't make sense for a bioware game.  BTW if you want to talk about linearity Skyrim might not have linear gameplay but it's story is extremely linear.  The only choice I remember getting in the main quest was the one regarding Partheaunax.

[Ahglock]

KotorEffect3 wrote...

argonian persona wrote...

I think BioWare games will see more sandbox elements. There is proof this is about to happen

I've got nothing against Bethesda as I loved both Oblivion and Skyrim (not crazy about fallout 3 but that has more to do with setting than anything else) but why do some Bethesda fanboys seem to think every game needs to be a sandbox game to be good?  I always see them complaining about bioware games being to linear.  They don't understand that bioware games are storybased games based on an interactive story and group combat.  A sandbox setting doesn't make sense for a bioware game.  BTW if you want to talk about linearity Skyrim might not have linear gameplay but it's story is extremely linear.  The only choice I remember getting in the main quest was the one regarding Partheaunax.

I don't think it is needed, but I expect more compaines will do it given the sales of Skyrim.  And if it does not interfere with the story like the more open sections in overlord did not then it either adds something to a persons game or is easily ignroed if it iisnot to your tastes.  

[RAF1940]

I had the same feeling for Skyrim, but I loved the game.


So I'm not concerned.

[Phategod1]

argonian persona wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

argonian persona wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...

^ Skyrim is a different Provence from the one featured in Oblivion actually, not continent.

Who cares.

That shows you how much a difference it is.

The 16 square miles of terrain is completely different, as is storyline, time period, culture, and on and on and on. But isn't ME3 basically also an updated ME2?

They did a good job on Oblivion for only having hardware tech info six months before release. It's hard developing a game without definitive hardware parameters.

Storyline? Replace oblivion gates with Dragons.

Time period? Irrelevant. That literally has nothing to do with anything.

Culture? I'd certainly hope the culture is different, since it's a different province. If it wasn't, I'd openly call Bethesda retarded.

"Definitive hardware parameters"? Explain the notoriously buggy launch, or the literally unplayable (still) PS3 version. Unless of course you're saying the developer WANTS to ****** off as many customers as  possible.

You're not talking about intro mission, recruit, 3 hub main missions, recruit and finale, are you?

Again, Skyrim has been received by the gaming community as a "masterpiece". Are there problems? Sure. But not big enough to quench Tue fact its a masterpiece.


Haters gonna hate

Masterpiece my **** the story is almost non existant, let me ask you who's your favorite character? Whats your favorite thing that happens in the story? I want to do a google search for "blood on the Ice, Broken quest" see what you get friend. The games broken, the story was pathetic, what it  does well, is creating a very beautiful world and gives you a lot to do in it. ME2 was all about character development you can break any game down to it core with a few sentences, it doesnt make the game look bad or make you look smart. As far as hters hating I was enjoying and loving the game till I ran into a broken quest. 

[Arcadian Legend]

Why? The thread had almost fell to Oblivion! D:

Modifié par Arcadian Legend, 08 janvier 2012 - 11:44 .

[silver_sparrow]

Why does this still exist!? D:<

[XyleJKH]

Thanks silver sparrow

[Gatt9]

AlanC9 wrote...

streamlock wrote...
Personally, playing through ME3 and having nearly every NPC just stand in one place for eternity (beyond maybe some scripted event) and wait for you to click on them 'till the end of days is going to make the world so static as to seem a retro gaming experience in comparison..

Doesn't that feature come and go in RPGs? I remember it from ..... Ultima VI? Not sure if it was invented there, though.

I remember a lot of NWN1 and 2 mods trying to do this, but they got marked down in the fan ratings by annoyed players who didn't like having to search for the NPC they wanted to talk to. Maybe RPG player tastes run in cycles.

You are correct AlanC9,  Richard Garriot implemented the "Radiant AI" about 25 years prior to Bethesda,  on a 1mhz processor with 64K of ram,  and with none of the silly defects.

It's existed in a large number of games since then.  It pops up every few years,  lasts a short period of time,  and then much like 3D movies,  disappears.

Primarily because for most people,  spending 20 minutes trying to figure out where someone wandered off to is not terribly fun.

Not so much a taste thing as a tech thing. The ability to track quests/NPC's via map/minimap/compass what have you has lessened the annoyance of the NPC hunt (though it still exhists). Hard core old school purists would probably consider that some form of metagaming and the little viens start to pulse visably on their forheads in rage-but then again they get pissed everytime your character jumps and the game doesn't do a dex roll check to see if you fall on your face. Take that as you will. (Though I think having your character or NPC actually trip up during a heated moment would add some character)

1.  You apparently don't understand what the problem is with games like Obilivion.  What is the point of making a giant open world,  and then leading everyone by the nose through it with a magic compass?  Might as well have made corridors,  because that's effectively what it is.

2.  You also have apparently not played any real open world games.  I'd recommend the Might and Magic series,  where you'd find dungeons,  encounters,  and points of interest that actually had valueable reasons to exist.  Unlike Bethesda games where they're just pointless,  since the level scaling makes certain you'll never get anything worthwhile.

3.  Your use of the word "Purists" tells me that you are someone who hates RPG's but wants to wear a "I'm an RPG player!" badge.  There's a reason why attributes and skills exist,  just because worthless companies like Bethesda lack the understanding necessary to actually implement RPG mechanics doesn't mean the mechanics aren't worth implementing.  Case in point:  Skyrim.  Because Bethesda lacks the ability to implement dialogue and intelligence related skills,  they decided that all it does is increase mana.  Of course,  the correct solution was to actually implement a dialogue system more complicated than "Go do a fetch quest for me",  no surprise Bethesda has no idea how to implement anything else. 

Go play Fallout 1 or Fallout 2,  and you'll discover why those things exist,  and why Bethesda getting ahold of Fallout was a terrible day for gaming.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Hmm. Sandbox vs. story? Story all the way. Bioware wins.

Modifié par Neverwinter_Knight77, 09 janvier 2012 - 02:56 .

[streamlock]

Gatt9 wrote...

1.  You apparently don't understand what the problem is with games like Obilivion.  What is the point of making a giant open world,  and then leading everyone by the nose through it with a magic compass?  Might as well have made corridors,  because that's effectively what it is.

Hey buddy, I don't know about you but my character had the advanced surveyor skill paired with the epic cartography feat....

Gatt9 wrote...

2.  You also have apparently not played any real open world games.  I'd recommend the Might and Magic series,  where you'd find dungeons,  encounters,  and points of interest that actually had valueable reasons to exist.  Unlike Bethesda games where they're just pointless,  since the level scaling makes certain you'll never get anything worthwhile.

Well, I guess the sex change device had to be valuable to somebody.  To each their own I guess....
(On a serious note: I had hoped Stardock's Elemental would recapture some of the magic of MaM and MoM-that didn't work out so well.....)

Gatt9 wrote...

3.  Your use of the word "Purists" tells me that you are someone who hates RPG's but wants to wear a "I'm an RPG player!" badge.  There's a reason why attributes and skills exist,  just because worthless companies like Bethesda lack the understanding necessary to actually implement RPG mechanics doesn't mean the mechanics aren't worth implementing.  Case in point:  Skyrim.  Because Bethesda lacks the ability to implement dialogue and intelligence related skills,  they decided that all it does is increase mana.  Of course,  the correct solution was to actually implement a dialogue system more complicated than "Go do a fetch quest for me",  no surprise Bethesda has no idea how to implement anything else.

 

I ain't sportin' the "Save THAC0 !!!" badge, but I am wearing the "Real RPG's are rendered in ASCII !!!" tee.  If that makes any sense.

Gatt9 wrote...

Go play Fallout 1 or Fallout 2,  and you'll discover why those things exist,  and why Bethesda getting ahold of Fallout was a terrible day for gaming.

I have not played the new Fallout, and have no basis for comparison or snarky remarks.

[AlanC9]

streamlock wrote...
Not so much a taste thing as a tech thing.  The ability to track quests/NPC's via map/minimap/compass what have you has lessened the annoyance of the NPC hunt (though it still exhists).  Hard core old school purists would probably consider that some form of metagaming and the little viens start to pulse visably on their forheads in rage-but then again they get pissed everytime your character jumps and the game doesn't do a dex roll check to see if you fall on your face.  Take that as you will.  (Though I think having your character or NPC actually trip up during a heated moment would add some character)

Now that you mention it,  I remember the howls of outrage when Oblivion introduced the quest compass because so many Morrowind players were too stupid to find Caius Cosades

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

Now that you mention it,  I remember the howls of outrage when Oblivion introduced the quest compass because so many Morrowind players were too stupid to find Caius Cosades

Hehe, my favorite was always the "Where do you find the Dwemer Puzzlebox in Akngthand?". I saw that question pop up so many times.

I also wasn't a huge fan of the questing compass. It kinda changed my perception of exploration. The compass basically meant following the red dot and made everything far more objective-oriented. I really enjoyed the Morrowind approach of getting directions (sometimes wrong directions) and actually having to piece together how to reach the quest goal, which was the most common way of getting sidetracked by other dungeons, side quests, etc.  

[AgitatedLemon]

streamlock wrote...

I"m not going to plow through 40 pages of responses, but...I have to disagree with the whole concept of the OP.

(I'm sure my release timescales are a bit off), but you mine as well be asking how the next Bad Boys sequel is going to be viewed in the post Saving Private Ryan era. Sure, you can make broad comparisons like overall sound, soundtrack, special effects-what have you. But your going to run into some serious issues going any deeper than that. They are two totally different beasts.

To address your specific points. Limited exploration, corridor shooting etc. Was ME1 and ME2 that bad of an experience for you? Or do they somehow only suck for you after you have played Skyrim?

There is only so much that can be done with the UT, what is it, 2003 engine they are working from to begin with. Secondly, I don't have a problem with it being developed as a sequel to ME2 while improving on the formula and polishing up a bit. In fact, I think that is what everyone is expecting, and ultimately wants at this point.

Yes, Skyrim is an awesome game in it's own right, and sure I'd like to see an equally fully realized world in the Sci-Fi genre with Bioware's signature writing, storytelling, and character development as much as anybody. But ME3 is not, and should not be that game. I think your comparison would be better served in asking how development of the franchise past ME3 needs to compare itself in a post RPG 2011 landscape.

The OP is just fanboy'ing for Bethesda (Look at his username)

[AlanC9]

Il Divo wrote...
I also wasn't a huge fan of the questing compass. It kinda changed my perception of exploration. The compass basically meant following the red dot and made everything far more objective-oriented. I really enjoyed the Morrowind approach of getting directions (sometimes wrong directions) and actually having to piece together how to reach the quest goal, which was the most common way of getting sidetracked by other dungeons, side quests, etc.  

Me too. 

It's especially weird to have the compass in a TES game. I thought exploring the world was kind of the point.