1113 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elder King]

abaris wrote...

hhh89 wrote...

Careful here. I don't know if ME3 will be better than Skyirim as a game, but Skyrim will most likely sell more copies than ME3. Even if what Bethesda said may be not completely accurate, I think they selled at least 5,6 million copies. I doubt ME3 will be able to sell that much, considering how much ME and ME2 selled.

The point is rather they are two totally different genres. If I play an Elder Scroll game I know what to expect. Open world, open exploration, little to none NPC interaction and little in ways of story. Doesn't make for a bad game, but for a totally different gaming experience.

The ME series on the other hand is story and companion driven and pretty much linear. I like both approaches but wouldn't touch the Elder Scroll series if there weren't the modding possibilities making the games so much better and really immersive. In their vanilla state they're pretty much open world shooters with swords. They're certainly nothing to make up for a new age of role playing. Well, maybe Morrowind was, back in 2002, when the genre was totally new.

I agree with you.I generally prefer Bioware's (or CDP, and for that I'll most likely get TW2 for Xbox after ME3. ) approach over Bethesda.
I'm only saying that even in the case ME3 will be better than Skyrim, it'll most likely not outsell it, in response of a poster that said that ME3 will outsell Skyrim.

Modifié par hhh89, 09 janvier 2012 - 09:11 .

[AlanC9]

Zanallen wrote...

ME3 will most likely not outsell Skyrim. Bethesda games almost always outsell Bioware games. I assume its because people value the freedom of an open world more than a good story with strong characters. And I assume Bethesda games appeal to a larger audience, like those FPS players who bought Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Perhaps the single PC with first person perspective is more popular than third person with party management.

Probably so. But why should anyone care?

[1136342t54_]

[quote]jreezy wrote...


[quote]argonian persona wrote...
ME3 seems like a pure tps. How will it be viewed, a tps that is allegedly an rpg (this game has co-op horde mode, need I remind you) after a masterpiece rpg, called Skyrim, just changed the landscape of the current rpg market?[/quote]
[/quote]
After comments like this I hope know one is actually taking this guy seriously.

[/quote]

I find that funny though. Skyrim to me isn't a very good RPG (but a great game) since you have very little actual story choices. Sure gameplay gives you many different ways to get by a problem but even Fallout 3 gives you more choices when it comes to quests and the main story. ME3 does have a lot of combat but it also actually have a story in which you get to make actual choices other than do it or don't do it.

Skyrim is a great game but I wouldn't say it is a great RPG if that makes sense to you. 

[IanPolaris]

Actually Skyrim's success apparently even took Bethesda by suprise, so whatever you think of it or ME1-3, I think it is fair to say that Skryim has redefined the ©RPG genre at least in the near future. It's inevitable that any game that claims to be an RPG or has RPG elements (like Mass Effect) will be compared at least in passing to Skyrim rightly or wrongly.

-Polaris

[stysiaq]

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually Skyrim's success apparently even took Bethesda by suprise, so whatever you think of it or ME1-3, I think it is fair to say that Skryim has redefined the ©RPG genre at least in the near future. It's inevitable that any game that claims to be an RPG or has RPG elements (like Mass Effect) will be compared at least in passing to Skyrim rightly or wrongly.

-Polaris

Just how exactly do you redefine a genre with a game which is not innovative at all? It's like saying that Transformers trilogy redefined Sci-Fi popcorn flicks, just because it made a lot of money.

Last year had some decent RPGs, but Skyrim was far from being the best of them. I'd say there's not much role-playing there at all. 

I'm playing (finally!) DX:HR right now, and that is what I call a proper cRPG. I feel that the characters are made from flesh & blood, I take my morality into account when making decisions - at least this game made me feel its worth playing it as an RPG. The same goes for TW2. At some point of Skyrim I was just flailing my weapon madly, not caring about anything, because, frankly, why should I? It's not like you'll ever meet a killable NPC again in some point of the story. Its not like you'll have a chance to save some people from dying. Its not like anyone cares if you push the main quest forward or not. Your actions (or lack of em) does not make any difference!

I bet that the period of comparing RPGs to Skyrim will end at the 6th of March.

[abaris]

hhh89 wrote...

I'm only saying that even in the case ME3 will be better than Skyrim, it'll most likely not outsell it, in response of a poster that said that ME3 will outsell Skyrim.

No, it probably won't. But Skyrim is that popular because of its modding possibilities. At least previous Elder Scroll games were.

I would say it's not one of their highlights, since nothing actually changed compared to their previous games. They also rode the streamlining express and dumbed a whole lot of content down to meet the lowest common denominator. The UI on the PC is abysmal, since it's tailor made for the console controller and there are a lot of things like being able to join all the guilds without meeting any requirements.

I think, it should be measured by Fallout 3, since this is one previous Bethesda game featuring the open world concept. But Skyrim is an actual step back from there.

I haven't seen ME3 yet, so it's a bit to early for me to praise or criticise. Everything we do know are bits the marketing and PR department wants us to know. But there certainly isn't a past Skyrim era, since Skyrim didn't come even close to make up a new era.

[dtmoss]

To me the best game would be a melding of the open world, do anything part of Skyrim and the wonderful story/character interaction of Mass Effect.

[Unit-Alpha]

ME is different than Skyrim by a long shot. Sure, Skyrim may have sold 12 million or so copies, but that doesn't mean it's going to determine the course for ME3,

[Unit-Alpha]

stysiaq wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually Skyrim's success apparently even took Bethesda by suprise, so whatever you think of it or ME1-3, I think it is fair to say that Skryim has redefined the ©RPG genre at least in the near future. It's inevitable that any game that claims to be an RPG or has RPG elements (like Mass Effect) will be compared at least in passing to Skyrim rightly or wrongly.

-Polaris

Just how exactly do you redefine a genre with a game which is not innovative at all? It's like saying that Transformers trilogy redefined Sci-Fi popcorn flicks, just because it made a lot of money.

Last year had some decent RPGs, but Skyrim was far from being the best of them. I'd say there's not much role-playing there at all. 

I'm playing (finally!) DX:HR right now, and that is what I call a proper cRPG. I feel that the characters are made from flesh & blood, I take my morality into account when making decisions - at least this game made me feel its worth playing it as an RPG. The same goes for TW2. At some point of Skyrim I was just flailing my weapon madly, not caring about anything, because, frankly, why should I? It's not like you'll ever meet a killable NPC again in some point of the story. Its not like you'll have a chance to save some people from dying. Its not like anyone cares if you push the main quest forward or not. Your actions (or lack of em) does not make any difference!

I bet that the period of comparing RPGs to Skyrim will end at the 6th of March.

Not quite. People will continue to do that because Skyrim is the largest RPG launch in the history of gaming (excluding PS2 FF and Pokemon). They will do it incorrectly, no doubt, but ME3 will sell probably half the number of copies that Skyrim does, so it will continue.

[argonian persona]

Zanallen wrote...

ME3 will most likely not outsell Skyrim. Bethesda games almost always outsell Bioware games. I assume its because people value the freedom of an open world more than a good story with strong characters. And I assume Bethesda games appeal to a larger audience, like those FPS players who bought Fallout 3 and New Vegas. Perhaps the single PC with first person perspective is more popular than third person with party management.

I did like how there were companions this time. Much room for improvement, but it is nice. The Conjuration School of Magic is terrific, too...I can always have a summoned Dremora with me because my Skill is 100 (after 170 hours ). But you're right. We'll see sales stats soon...the notion ME3 outselling is silly. Not that its a big contest, but it can change perception, generally, of how ME3 is viewed when it hits shelves. By the general community and by the businesses that develope games working toward earnings.

[Revan312]

The worries I personally have about ME3 is the story above everything else. The gameplay changes, whatever, I disliked their change over from ME1 to ME2 but that wasn't why I was playing. I played it for a continuation of the story.

That said, after ME2's bombastically Michael Bay like level of story telling/plot development, I have concerns about the actual tale that will be on display in 3. It felt like we went from a mature, albeit flawed, sci-fi rpg opera, to Bad Boys in space. All the protagonists became overblown caricatures representing the most basic of movie/story telling tropes and cliches. And the ending, ohhh the ending.. what a stupefyingly contrived piece of nonsense that was..

I'm not sure at this point whether or not ME3 will actually create a believable story within it's own established universe from the first game. There was enough retcons to fill a dumptruck from 1 to 2, so how many will be present in 3? And how over the top will the ending of this one be? Will Shepard Omniblade the final reaper to death?

I'm still gonna play it, I have my copy pre-ordered and no amount of disappointing news will change that as even if its bad, it will still be good compared to 90% of the games out there, but I still feel like Bioware is moving further and further away from smart, engaging and mature story telling, and heading towards the gear head crowd that loves ****** and beer and just wants to shoot ****..

[ArkkAngel007]

hhh89 wrote...

ArkkAngel007 wrote...


Btw, Mass Effect 3 will outsell Skyrim.  The broader appeal will be the foremost reason, but there are other factors as well.  Will it be the best selling game?  No way, as there are too many trying to claw at the latest copies of CoD and Halo.  I know the limitations of the games I enjoy, including Skyrim.

Careful here. I don't know if ME3 will be better than Skyirim as a game, but Skyrim will most likely sell more copies than ME3. Even if what Bethesda said may be not completely accurate, I think they selled at least 5,6 million copies. I doubt ME3 will be able to sell that much, considering how much ME and ME2 selled.

I jumped the gun before I checked past sale numbers.  While I haven't been able to pull total sales, Oblivion and ME2 pulled in similar amounts in their first week.  With the jump in Skyrim sales, no doubt due to Betheda's successful marketing and Oblivion nearly having 6 years to build a healthy fan base, it will be tough to catch up.  

Short point: Opened my mouth without doing research.  And now all my valid points are ruined for that one mistake, as BSN and Reddit dictates.

[Gatt9]

Unit-Alpha wrote...

stysiaq wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually Skyrim's success apparently even took Bethesda by suprise, so whatever you think of it or ME1-3, I think it is fair to say that Skryim has redefined the ©RPG genre at least in the near future. It's inevitable that any game that claims to be an RPG or has RPG elements (like Mass Effect) will be compared at least in passing to Skyrim rightly or wrongly.

-Polaris

Just how exactly do you redefine a genre with a game which is not innovative at all? It's like saying that Transformers trilogy redefined Sci-Fi popcorn flicks, just because it made a lot of money.

Last year had some decent RPGs, but Skyrim was far from being the best of them. I'd say there's not much role-playing there at all. 

I'm playing (finally!) DX:HR right now, and that is what I call a proper cRPG. I feel that the characters are made from flesh & blood, I take my morality into account when making decisions - at least this game made me feel its worth playing it as an RPG. The same goes for TW2. At some point of Skyrim I was just flailing my weapon madly, not caring about anything, because, frankly, why should I? It's not like you'll ever meet a killable NPC again in some point of the story. Its not like you'll have a chance to save some people from dying. Its not like anyone cares if you push the main quest forward or not. Your actions (or lack of em) does not make any difference!

I bet that the period of comparing RPGs to Skyrim will end at the 6th of March.

Not quite. People will continue to do that because Skyrim is the largest RPG launch in the history of gaming (excluding PS2 FF and Pokemon). They will do it incorrectly, no doubt, but ME3 will sell probably half the number of copies that Skyrim does, so it will continue.

Actually,  it's very far from it.

Dungeons and Dragons is the largest RPG in the history of gaming.  In fact,  it's the origin of all RPGs. (Ok AlanC9,  I know we're going to debate this for awhile,  let's just PM that debate?  For those wondering,  AlanC9's going to call me on the other early RPG's that arrived shortly after,  I'm going to argue that none of them had sufficient impact)

Ultima was far larger,  and far,  far,  more influential than anything Bethesda's ever done.  In fact,  Ultima implemented the "Radiant AI" 25 years earlier on a 1mhz processor with 64K of ram,  and far less bugs.  Ultimat's influence is still present in games including Mass Effect and even Skyrim.

Any given version of Final Fantasy has sold far more units.

I'd be willing to bet alot of money that Nethack has been played by more people than any other RPG ever.

Diablo 2,  Knights of the Old Republic, and many others.

But Skyrim?  Hardly.  As I said earlier,  Bethesda is very fast and loose with their statements,  do some research,  that 10 million figure?  That's units shipped,  not sold,  and when they tried that with Fallout 3 the NPD numbers showed significantly smaller figures.  Like less than half.

To be honest,  Skyrim will be exactly like Obilvion,  and exactly like Morrowind.  In 6 months,  no one will remember it.  Then sometime next year,  all of those "professional reviewers" who gave it a perfect score will take a Bethesda announcement and tell us about how "New game X will fix all of the mistakes of Skyrim!".

Just like Fallout 3 fixed all of the mistakes of the once-perfect Oblivion.

That's the funniest thing of all about Bethesda games.  It's a absolute perfect game on release,  and then when the next announcement is made,  the reviewers suddenly start mentioning all of the problems with the game while they promise the new Bethesda game fixes them.  Which really should tell everyone how honest the reviews were in the first place.

[argonian persona]

Gatt9 wrote...

Unit-Alpha wrote...

stysiaq wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Actually Skyrim's success apparently even took Bethesda by suprise, so whatever you think of it or ME1-3, I think it is fair to say that Skryim has redefined the ©RPG genre at least in the near future. It's inevitable that any game that claims to be an RPG or has RPG elements (like Mass Effect) will be compared at least in passing to Skyrim rightly or wrongly.

-Polaris

Just how exactly do you redefine a genre with a game which is not innovative at all? It's like saying that Transformers trilogy redefined Sci-Fi popcorn flicks, just because it made a lot of money.

Last year had some decent RPGs, but Skyrim was far from being the best of them. I'd say there's not much role-playing there at all. 

I'm playing (finally!) DX:HR right now, and that is what I call a proper cRPG. I feel that the characters are made from flesh & blood, I take my morality into account when making decisions - at least this game made me feel its worth playing it as an RPG. The same goes for TW2. At some point of Skyrim I was just flailing my weapon madly, not caring about anything, because, frankly, why should I? It's not like you'll ever meet a killable NPC again in some point of the story. Its not like you'll have a chance to save some people from dying. Its not like anyone cares if you push the main quest forward or not. Your actions (or lack of em) does not make any difference!

I bet that the period of comparing RPGs to Skyrim will end at the 6th of March.

Not quite. People will continue to do that because Skyrim is the largest RPG launch in the history of gaming (excluding PS2 FF and Pokemon). They will do it incorrectly, no doubt, but ME3 will sell probably half the number of copies that Skyrim does, so it will continue.

Actually,  it's very far from it.

Dungeons and Dragons is the largest RPG in the history of gaming.  In fact,  it's the origin of all RPGs. (Ok AlanC9,  I know we're going to debate this for awhile,  let's just PM that debate?  For those wondering,  AlanC9's going to call me on the other early RPG's that arrived shortly after,  I'm going to argue that none of them had sufficient impact)

Ultima was far larger,  and far,  far,  more influential than anything Bethesda's ever done.  In fact,  Ultima implemented the "Radiant AI" 25 years earlier on a 1mhz processor with 64K of ram,  and far less bugs.  Ultimat's influence is still present in games including Mass Effect and even Skyrim.

Any given version of Final Fantasy has sold far more units.

I'd be willing to bet alot of money that Nethack has been played by more people than any other RPG ever.

Diablo 2,  Knights of the Old Republic, and many others.

But Skyrim?  Hardly.  As I said earlier,  Bethesda is very fast and loose with their statements,  do some research,  that 10 million figure?  That's units shipped,  not sold,  and when they tried that with Fallout 3 the NPD numbers showed significantly smaller figures.  Like less than half.

To be honest,  Skyrim will be exactly like Obilvion,  and exactly like Morrowind.  In 6 months,  no one will remember it.  Then sometime next year,  all of those "professional reviewers" who gave it a perfect score will take a Bethesda announcement and tell us about how "New game X will fix all of the mistakes of Skyrim!".

Just like Fallout 3 fixed all of the mistakes of the once-perfect Oblivion.

That's the funniest thing of all about Bethesda games.  It's a absolute perfect game on release,  and then when the next announcement is made,  the reviewers suddenly start mentioning all of the problems with the game while they promise the new Bethesda game fixes them.  Which really should tell everyone how honest the reviews were in the first place.

Skyrim is still selling great. I know three people who got it within the past week, and two more for the holidays.

I know denial is hard to see, but conspiracy theories don't hold up.

[Il Divo]

argonian persona wrote...

Skyrim is still selling great. I know three people who got it within the past week, and two more for the holidays.

I know denial is hard to see, but conspiracy theories don't hold up.

Not that I don't disagree with Gatt on virtually everything, but you are aware of what anecdotal evidence is, right?

[IanPolaris]

Skyrim is doing better than any prior TES game. Considerably better and it's selling power is considerably better as well. I am not saying it's the perfect RPG by a long chalk, but with it's sales numbers it WILL be the benchmark by which other RPG and RPG-hybrids will be measured against, correctly nor not.

-Polaris

Edit:  It's also worth noting that Skyrim was widely acclaimed as Game of Year (in the RPG category anyway) by BOTH the professional reviews and the gaming community at large.  IIRC it wasn't even particularly close and that was against other titles that (in theory) were very good RPGs (or RPG-like) games in their own right (such as Witcher 2).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 10 janvier 2012 - 05:51 .

[AlanC9]

Gatt9 wrote...
Dungeons and Dragons is the largest RPG in the history of gaming.  In fact,  it's the origin of all RPGs. (Ok AlanC9,  I know we're going to debate this for awhile,  let's just PM that debate?  For those wondering,  AlanC9's going to call me on the other early RPG's that arrived shortly after,  I'm going to argue that none of them had sufficient impact)

Nah. I would never deny that D&D is the origin of RPG gaming, and is even more influential in CRPGs than in the PnP world.

I just wish it hadn't been.

[AlanC9]

IanPolaris wrote...
Edit:  It's also worth noting that Skyrim was widely acclaimed as Game of Year (in the RPG category anyway) by BOTH the professional reviews and the gaming community at large.  IIRC it wasn't even particularly close and that was against other titles that (in theory) were very good RPGs (or RPG-like) games in their own right (such as Witcher 2).

Doesn't that just make Skyrim this year's DA:O?

[Shub-Niggurath64]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...


I'm wondering why this is still alive.

OP keeps bringing it back when it falls off the first page. I tried to spam pony pics the other day in an attempt to kill it, but that didn't work either.

[Ottemis]

IanPolaris wrote...

Skyrim is doing better than any prior TES game. Considerably better and it's selling power is considerably better as well. I am not saying it's the perfect RPG by a long chalk, but with it's sales numbers it WILL be the benchmark by which other RPG and RPG-hybrids will be measured against, correctly nor not.

-Polaris

Edit:  It's also worth noting that Skyrim was widely acclaimed as Game of Year (in the RPG category anyway) by BOTH the professional reviews and the gaming community at large.  IIRC it wasn't even particularly close and that was against other titles that (in theory) were very good RPGs (or RPG-like) games in their own right (such as Witcher 2).

No.

Being in the same genre doesn't mean it should automaticly all be compared against eachother, when there is a WORLD of difference between one RPG and the next, let alone between a 'pure' RPG and a hybrid.
Skyrim is popular because it's filling a void for one very specific RPG need. Not because it's the messiah for future RPG's and it really shouldn't be considered as such.

Skyrim is far from perfect. It's gotten, from an objective pov, an unrealistic amount of positive attention while almost none was given to it's many many MANY faults. Having said that, for the kind of RPG it is, it's not bad and it definately has potential to be great. Emphasis on potential.

Modifié par Ottemis, 10 janvier 2012 - 05:52 .

[argonian persona]

If Skyrim is Oblivion 1.5, what does that make Mass Effect 3 relative to Mass Effect 2? Especially with brand new features like roll!

I also don't get where people get off saying it isn't an rpg. Cause it doesn't have movie cutscenes telling a story? In Skyrim, you are given a choice between ten races, you are given a massive region with cities and ecosystems and economies (yes....try to sabotage a wood mill and have any luck buying arrows...if you're lucky to find them they'll cost you an arm and a leg), a story backdrop and lots of ways to develope your character, then you're off, making your own story.

This used to occur and still does occur in paper and pencil rpgs. There is a basic structure, then its freedom. Who is your character? What is his or her backstory? Well...its whatever you want it to be. I certainly am not forced to being a human. That's example #1...I have more abilities and options to role-play right off the bat. I do what I want when I want. I don't have to play any quest I don't want after escaping my execution.

Freedom.

[Nashiktal]

Skryim isn't oblivion 1.5. If it was oblivion 1.5 it probably would have added more things than it removed.

I'm looking forward to the morrowind remake mods, that will bring skyrim up to speed. Unfortunate that fans have to be the ones to add content that was already available in previous iterations.

[Bleachrude]

I honestly don't understand how Skyrim is garnering ANY awards...I'm thinking we got a videogame example of an Oscar release (movies that studiops intend for the Oscar get put into theatres just before the deadline).

Best RPG - Either Deux Ex:HR or Witcher 2 or Dark Souls I can see winning
Best Game: Batman: Arkham city, Uncharted etc.

Have people never played a TES game before?