22 réponses à ce sujet

[Quatre]

Hi,

I have a few questions concerning the hierarchy within the Templar Order and the Seekers of Truth:

In Dragon Age II we learned that...

"From the glittering White Spire in Val Royeaux the Knight-Vigilant
commands the templars to serve the Maker’s will and keep the peace."

and that...

"...few know that the Chantry created yet another order to watch over the templars: the Seekers of Truth."

However on the back cover of Asunder the Seekers are described as "a powerful and secret segment of the templars".

The Knight-Vigilant isn't mentioned in the novel. Yet a Lord Seeker, the right hand of the Divine, assumes control over the Templar Order. To make things more complicated there will be a High Seeker in the upcoming anime.

My questions:
Is the High Seeker the same as the Lord Seeker? Or are those different ranks within the Seekers of Truth? If so, who leads the order exactly?

Where is the Knight-Vigilant? Is it simply another title for the Knight-Commander at the White Spire? Or was this rank abolished when the Lord Seeker took over? 

[Urzon]

I'v always assumed that the Seekers were kinda the Divine's secret service as well as being the Templar Order's Internal Affairs. Since they templar broke away from the Chantry, i'm guessing the remaining loyal Seekers are just back to secret service now.

As for your question, I think someone was throwing around too many titles around and forgot about the poor Knight-Vigilant. Though that could be easily explained away that the Lord Seeker and the Knight-Vigilant are the same person. He's just a guy that hold both titles.

High Seeker seems more of a rank inside the order. Kinda of like the Ley Sister>Mother>Reverend Mother>Grand Cleric>Divine the Chantry follows. Obviously, the High Seeker would be towards the top.

Hmm... with all this talk about Chantry secret service, i wonder if Bioware is going to put in a female mage seeker to go with Leliana and Cassandra. It would be funny to see a couple of "Divine's" Angels jokes.

Modifié par Urzon, 30 décembre 2011 - 12:22 .

[Gervaise]

The whole issue is further complicated by the fact that at the end of the book the Lord Seeker implies that the Seekers, like the Templars, originally existed independently from the Chantry and only came under their control by agreement during the Divine age, which contradicts the codex in DA2 which says that the Chantry created the Seekers. So there would appear to be two sets of history that have been written that don't exactly match one another. This could be true in the DA world in that there is one history that had been promoted by the Chantry but the reality was in fact different.

I would imagine that Knight Vigilant was an alternative title given to the Knight Commander of the White Spire because he commands the home base of the templars and so in a meeting of Knight Commanders, he acts as a sort of chairman of the board. The Lord Seeker outranks him and oversees the performance of all Knight Commanders, so I assume appeal would have to be made to him if one wished a Knight Commander removed from office. If he feels a Knight Commander has not been doing their duty with regard to keeping mages under control (as happens in the book), he can remove them from office without reference to anyone else.
If the post of High Seeker has been mentioned, this is either an alternative title for the Lord Seeker, or possibly of the next tier down in the chain of command, possibly in charge of a regional branch of the seekers.

[WhiteKnyght]

Gervaise wrote...

The whole issue is further complicated by the fact that at the end of the book the Lord Seeker implies that the Seekers, like the Templars, originally existed independently from the Chantry and only came under their control by agreement during the Divine age, which contradicts the codex in DA2 which says that the Chantry created the Seekers. So there would appear to be two sets of history that have been written that don't exactly match one another. This could be true in the DA world in that there is one history that had been promoted by the Chantry but the reality was in fact different.

It's established fact that codexes aren't 100% accurate. They are accountings of people in the world of Thedas as they beleive them to be. Not historical fact.

As for the seeker stuff. I imagine the High Seeker isn't the same person as Lambert, but rather a lesser rank.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 31 décembre 2011 - 01:34 .

[slyborg]

I am a little confused by the Seeker/Templar lore, hopefully it will be cleared up. But I enjoyed reading Asunder and can't wait for more.

[IanPolaris]

I think it's pretty clear what's going on. Bioware no longer understands it's own lore and is tripping over it's own lore.

-Polaris

[Augustei]

IanPolaris wrote...

I think it's pretty clear what's going on. Bioware no longer understands it's own lore and is tripping over it's own lore.

-Polaris

its like that show lost, bioware loves to set up mysteries and awesome sounding story arcs but then eventually they'll end up with a crapload of story arc's going nowhere and will struggle to tie them togeather and eventually it will be one big mess with a bunch of unsolved crap and a really underwhelming crummy ending =P
at least thats one possible outcome.

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 31 décembre 2011 - 03:59 .

[TEWR]

I imagine the Lord Seeker is the Knight-Vigilant, as the Seekers are not just Templar Internal Affairs but also Templars in their own right (or are at least reputed to be).

And the High Seeker is the Commander of the Seekers themselves. Perhaps Cassandra is the High Seeker?

EDIT: Though I have said before that there is a disconnect between what Bioware knows and what the players know. Certainly that's to be expected on some things, but there are some times where it's just unwarranted and it seems like they're adding "mystery" for the sake of "mystery".

EDIT 2: Wait... I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Knight-Vigilant is siding with the Divine, which kinda scraps my Lord Seeker/Knight Vigilant theory.

I'm confuzled now.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 décembre 2011 - 04:08 .

[slyborg]

I can understand why if as the codex states, the Seekers are the ones who watch the templars, that Lambert steps in after the murders and attack on the Divine since the Knight Commander was doing a shoddy job, but him preparing to march on the mages with the templars and breaking from the Chantry seems a little above his power unless the Seekers have ultimate authority over the templars. Or did the templars just decide to leave with the Seekers?? Confusing.

Modifié par slyborg, 31 décembre 2011 - 04:35 .

[Augustei]

From what I can gather, The Knight-Vigilant is indeed the head of the Templar order, and the Lord Seeker is the head of the Seekers. The Seekers are a force created to police the Templars so the Knight-Vigilant was until Asunder at the mercy of the Lord Seeker really.

***Spoilers***
and as Ethereal has pointed out, the Knight-Vigilant sided with the Divine.. the Lord Seeker did not so they are not the same person
***Spoilers***
The Knight-Vigilant has essentially full control over the Templar order whereas the Lord Seeker has control over the Military Police which are the seekers who in this case are a higher authority that does not fall under the jurisdiction of the Knight-Vigilant.. However the Lord Seeker seems to hold a great deal of influence over the order as well beyond his duty of just policing them, not officially but he's like the man behind the curtain and under normal circumstances would have the Knight-Vigilant at his mercy

***ASUNDER SPOILERS BELOW***
But with The Lord Seeker going against the Divine and according to Ethereal (Haven't read the book myself) The Knight-Vigilant siding with the divine he seems to have more free will and authority.. however the order appears to be divided now so we'll see where that goes.. But it seems the Lord seeker's views were shared by a majority of the order
***END SOILERS***

Modifié par XxDeonxX, 31 décembre 2011 - 04:49 .

[Urzon]

XxDeonxX wrote...

its like that show lost, bioware loves to set up mysteries and awesome sounding story arcs but then eventually they'll end up with a crapload of story arc's going nowhere and will struggle to tie them togeather and eventually it will be one big mess with a bunch of unsolved crap and a really underwhelming crummy ending =P
at least thats one possible outcome.

It would be funny, once we get around to going to Tevinter, if Bioware added an easter egg polar bear running around the jungle, and maybe a smoke monster/demon hidden boss.

[TEWR]

Maybe for the anime the High Seeker is the Lord Seeker? Maybe that's just what the Japanese are going to call him/her?

Like instead of using Lord they use High

[Quatre]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Perhaps Cassandra is the High Seeker?

Well, at least not during the events of "Dawn of the Seeker": There the High Seeker is a different character.

I don't believe the Lord Seeker is the Knight-Vigilant. I always thought the Templars and the Seekers belonged to different orders.

[Gervaise]

SPOILER......Asunder
.
.
At the end of the book it states that the Lord Seeker had just come from a gathering of 15 Knight Commanders (which would correspond the the various Circles in Thedas) in which they agreed unanimously to his proposal to break free of the control of the Chantry and assemble a templar army to march on the mages at Andoral's reach. So if the Knight Vigilant is said to have sided with the Divine, then effectively the Lord Seeker had sidelined him along with the Chantry, which is why I thought he could have been the former Knight Commander of the White Spire, whom the Lord Seeker had removed from office.

However, as it is implied that something happens to the Lord Seeker immediately after this, it may be that those Knight Commanders who held private reservations (as alluded to) but were too afraid to voice them openly to Lambert, were now free to follow their own conscience and opted to stay within Chantry control. One of these could then have been appointed Knight Vigilant by the Divine. Hence the situation at the end of DA2 where it would appear the templar/seeker ranks are split between those who remain loyal to the Divine and those who have broken away. This would also account for why the war is imminent but still avoidable, as Lambert's death meant there was a delay in forming up the templar army to march on the mages.

[Dave of Canada]

Could depend how secretive the order is, they might want to have a public presence but don't want to risk the life of Lambert and therefore have the High Seeker in the role for public presence.

[TEWR]

Quatre04 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Perhaps Cassandra is the High Seeker?

Well, at least not during the events of "Dawn of the Seeker": There the High Seeker is a different character.

I don't believe the Lord Seeker is the Knight-Vigilant. I always thought the Templars and the Seekers belonged to different orders.

Well yea, but I meant DAII Cassandra, assuming that the Lord Seeker and the High Seeker are the same title but with different names for localization purposes.

As for the Knight-Vigilant, were any new Templar characters mentioned at all?

[TEWR]

Gervaise wrote...

SPOILER......Asunder
.
.
At the end of the book it states that the Lord Seeker had just come from a gathering of 15 Knight Commanders (which would correspond the the various Circles in Thedas) in which they agreed unanimously to his proposal to break free of the control of the Chantry and assemble a templar army to march on the mages at Andoral's reach. So if the Knight Vigilant is said to have sided with the Divine, then effectively the Lord Seeker had sidelined him along with the Chantry, which is why I thought he could have been the former Knight Commander of the White Spire, whom the Lord Seeker had removed from office.

Assuming Gregoir is one of the Knight-Commanders present there, I cannot see him agreeing to fight against the mages. He's a fair and kind man -- albeit stern -- that tries to do what's best for the mages. He doesn't let his faith rule over him. In fact, he's probably one of the few Templars that tries to do what's morally right.

However, as it is implied that something happens to the Lord Seeker immediately after this, it may be that those Knight Commanders who held private reservations (as alluded to) but were too afraid to voice them openly to Lambert, were now free to follow their own conscience and opted to stay within Chantry control. One of these could then have been appointed Knight Vigilant by the Divine. Hence the situation at the end of DA2 where it would appear the templar/seeker ranks are split between those who remain loyal to the Divine and those who have broken away. This would also account for why the war is imminent but still avoidable, as Lambert's death meant there was a delay in forming up the templar army to march on the mages.

Okay, so there's a chance that Gregoir and Kinloch Hold's Templars -- or at least a good majority of them -- will side with the mages.

I have yet to get the book and read all of its details.

[Gervaise]

Gregoire might have felt that he could do more to help the mages by going along with the plan and being on hand to ensure fair play, than objecting and being instantly replaced. However, how a Knight Commander acts when the mages are locked inside a tower and how he reacts when a wholesale rebellion takes place, may be two different things entirely. Gregoire had a very good working relationship with Irving but he fled along with the other First Enchanters and may be this had an adverse effect on Gregoire's opinion, particularly since details of the rebellion will have come from the Lord Seeker, hardly an unbiased source, but nevertheless one which Gregoire would have no reason to mistrust and every reason to obey.

[Heimdall]

I imagine that the Knight-Vigilant commands the Templars.

The High Seeker commands the Seekers.

And the Lord Seeker holds ultimate authority over both.

[Lynata]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Maybe for the anime the High Seeker is the Lord Seeker? Maybe that's just what the Japanese are going to call him/her?
Like
instead of using Lord they use High

Wouldn't surprise me at all.
This kind of stuff actually happens fairly often in localization.
Translate something back and forth and you end up with a completely different result.

IanPolaris wrote...
I think it's pretty clear what's going on. Bioware no longer understands it's own lore and is tripping over it's own lore.

I'm inclined to agree and noticed a few slip-ups between DA:O and DA2 myself.

Anyways, wasn't it said that the Seekers report directly to the Divine? Wouldn't that imply ... no in-between? I admit I'm surprised that the Seekers are now supposed to have ranks at all.

[Quatre]

Hey, thanks for dropping by, Lyn.

Lynata wrote...
Wouldn't surprise me at all.
This kind of stuff actually happens fairly often in localization.
Translate something back and forth and you end up with a completely different result.

So depending on when "Dawn of the Seeker" is taking place, this might mean that we meet Lambert from "Asunder"?

Anyways, wasn't it said that the Seekers report directly to the Divine? Wouldn't that imply ... no in-between? I admit I'm surprised that the Seekers are now supposed to have ranks at all.

At least they have a really nasty Lord Seeker, who seizes command of 15 knight-commanders of the templar order.

[WardenKing]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I imagine that the Knight-Vigilant commands the Templars.

The High Seeker commands the Seekers.

And the Lord Seeker holds ultimate authority over both.

What you say here seems most likely to me, I have studied this hierarchy for some time now and I made a list of my own, however the list does not include the Seekers, but all the rest. Here is what I came up with after reading the lore:
i63.photobucket.com/albums/h156/gondor_2006/ChantryHierarchy.jpg

I also found this looking at the Dawn of the Seeker, it makes me curious, but I doubt Byron is a title...looking through the trailer and the vidoes it seems like Byron may be Cassandra`s father/uncle or something. Cassandra`s brother will at least be in the movie, that I know.
i1-games.softpedia-static.com/screenshots/Dragon-Age-Dawn-of-the-Seeker-BTS-Trailer_2.jpg

Modifié par Captain Eldarion, 19 janvier 2012 - 11:45 .

[Quatre]

Well, according to David Gaider the heads of the Templar Order are the Knights Divine. Again, the Knight-Vigilant is not mentioned at all.

Here's a relevant excerpt from http://swooping-is-b...om/1286233.html


DAVID GAIDER: "There is a Knight Divine. That's the structure of the Templars. The Templar Order head, the Knights Divine actually, they're plural. They serve directly underneath the Divine, herself. Technically it's kind of her bodyguards but they're also the heads of the Templar Order. Even then they're still subservient to the Seekers, the Seekers are a separate group which is also above the Templars. You can sort of think of them as, I don't know if you have this in the UK, Internal Affairs. A group within the police force that is separate but above. The Knights Divine control the day to day operations of the Templars, they are the ones who make all the rules, and a Seeker doesn't normally control the Templars. But if a Seeker shows up, they have the authority to override everybody else, that's the function they represent. They are the watchers of the watchmen."

THEDAS UK CON: "So it's the equivalent of the Ars Magica Inquisitor Internal, isn't it?"

DAVID GAIDER: "Yes. As a matter of fact the Templars were once all part of a group called the Inquisition. There was an Inquisition in Thedas. It existed around the time that the Chantry started to come to be. This was a time after the First Blight, after Andraste's March, when there was chaos everywhere, the Imperium had broken apart, you had the Old God cults, so a lot of blood magic. There was a lot of chaos, you had the cults of Andraste...and the Inquisition sort of arose as a group of people who said "Enough is enough, somebody has to do something about this magic that is tearing apart the world." And when the Chantry came to be they went to the Inquisition and said "Hey, we're of the same mind on this, why don't we pull together" and that's when the Inquisition turned into the Seekers and the Templar Order. They kind of merged. It'd be interesting to see if the Inquisition ever rose up again."