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Bioware finally did it . . .


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#26
Few87

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Appolo90 wrote...

Few87 wrote...

The game is no doubt very good but i wouldnt go as far as calling it a masterpiece. When you have an entire class of weapon that is vital to a certain class rendered useless by biowares inability to check what they have done the game becomes good but not great. When are they going to release the patch to fix this collosal issue? Hopefully soon, but that does involve work, and why pay people to work when you can spend the cash you made from DLC and just say "oh im sure the mod community will do something" or "oh just use a longsword, dont you understand we have far too much cake to eat to fix basic problems"...god!

Really? Something like that stops you from calling a game a masterpiece? Something that will so obviously be fixed?

Oh, also. It has been fixed by an official developer. I even got the link for you: Hotfix

Is it a masterpiece now?


lol, no there are plenty of real reasons that this game is no masterpiece. I do love this game though and im sure it will be fixed, im just randomly angry that its pointless to play as a rogue that wants to use daggers the size of the titanic at the moment and basicly there is no point.

#27
StaticSky

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Mmm the graphics do annoy me more than anything even on high and the facesespecially but thats because after Mass Effect I expect those graphics.
Though if you know bioware everything looks diffrent just look at everygame they have ever made every animation style differs.
Though like its been said by everyone who jumps to defend Dragon Age thats not what its about it about Bioware going back to ir roots with a rpg and the story,
While some of the things do annoy me like with how long the game was made the skill/classes I expected so much more.
In terms of playing I don't really sit at the computer for hours to play play like I did Kotor until it was finished.

Though I still find this game appealing and beautiful in its own way and a nice way to remember playing Baldur's Gate oh so many years ago.

Modifié par StaticSky, 23 novembre 2009 - 10:01 .


#28
Appolo90

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Do I HAVE to post that Hotfix again for you? The issue is fixed. Download it and fix your game!

Click THIS to fix your daggers!

I understand if you don't want to call this a masterpiece, though. That's pretty much the epitome of compliments. But... the game is damn good.

#29
purplesunset

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While I DISAGREE with most of the individual gripes that you listed, I can completely relate to the general overall sentiment that you conveyed. Bioware is simply a different company now.

I will forever be grateful to Bioware for introducing me to the world of Dungeons and Dragons, and to roleplaying games.

I still remember with great fondness the first time I slept in the sewers with a character I made in Neverwinter Nights. It was my first time playing an rpg and  the character was a monk. As I went to sleep in the sewers knowing that all I had to protect myself was my wits and my bare fists, something inside me clicked and I *knew* that rpg games was the one and only genre for me. B)

However, Bioware is now one of the big players in the game development world.

As such, it would be unreasonable to not expect them to care about financial security above all else. If you want to see developers who actually care about the game as their number one priority look to indie developers or mod development teams like the people behind The Nameless Mod and The Dark Mod to name a few.

Bioware didn't even bother to read the thread about the Black Human
Noble, so I can only assume that their views align with the views of
the people who quickly dismissed the thread as "ridiculous whining."
They are entitled to their opinion, and there is nothing malicious
about that.

Look at the marketing campaign that they used for Dragon Age. I even once read in a review "This is not the action game advertised." While I think the reviewer should definitely have done more research (chuckle), he does kindof  make a point. The reason Bioware used this action-oriented focus in the advertising trailers is because they wanted to attract "new blood." If you look at the people who most disagree with the DLC, you will see that they are usually people who fell in love with Bioware from before like from the days of BG. These people would have bought Dragon Age based purely on Bioware's name alone, so Bioware decided to focus their marketing campaign towards new people who never played rpg's before.  DA wasn't really meant for the old vanguards, but for the "new blood" who are also more likely to buy the DLC. This is also something to be expected. Bioware is just doing
what it must do to survive financially. There is nothing wrong with
that.

Disclaimer: If my views come across as being a bit cynical, well, I used to be an idealistic John Keats Romantic poet type in my younger days, but I have been burned so badly by the "real world" that I must try to protect myself from that pain by adopting  a  more pessimistic and realistic view of things.

#30
Few87

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Appolo90 wrote...

Do I HAVE to post that Hotfix again for you? The issue is fixed. Download it and fix your game!

Click THIS to fix your daggers!

I understand if you don't want to call this a masterpiece, though. That's pretty much the epitome of compliments. But... the game is damn good.


ha, i saw the hotfix, as i knew about it before you posted it. However im not going to download it. Bioware can be proffesionals and patch the game properly. And yes, i do also think this game is probably the best game for many many years. It is fantastic and its for that reason that the simple broken aspects of the game sadden me. I hope a nice EXPANSION PACK adds more depth to the gameplay and the various bugs (be they graphical bugs or mechanics bugs) are ironed out in a reasonably sized patch that should be released THIS WEEK.

#31
iinfinity

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this game kicks ass, i dont CARE about ANY of the bugs mentioned above, because in the areas that count, bioware have made a true god of a game, i love everything that bioware have done with the exception of mass effect, witch was pretty sucky, but overall, dao works

#32
Suron

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Appolo90 wrote...

Few87 wrote...

The game is no doubt very good but i wouldnt go as far as calling it a masterpiece. When you have an entire class of weapon that is vital to a certain class rendered useless by biowares inability to check what they have done the game becomes good but not great. When are they going to release the patch to fix this collosal issue? Hopefully soon, but that does involve work, and why pay people to work when you can spend the cash you made from DLC and just say "oh im sure the mod community will do something" or "oh just use a longsword, dont you understand we have far too much cake to eat to fix basic problems"...god!

Really? Something like that stops you from calling a game a masterpiece? Something that will so obviously be fixed?

Oh, also. It has been fixed by an official developer. I even got the link for you: Hotfix

Is it a masterpiece now?


except even that fix isn't a TRUE fix..as the developer states...it needs some balance.

I'd still call the game a masterpiece but it definately has it's flaws...

and the bowstring thing turned me off too...sorry but the excuse given about weapons not animating is hogwash...pure and total BS....from day one bows should have been animated...and it is in fact sloppy work to have let them get in the game as they are...no string..no pulling back.....I mean they can add this complex game engine with animations on boss kills like ogre's...facial expressions...in-game engine cutscenes that look GOOD...and you're telling me they couldn't figure out how to make a bow bend back or make a bowstring??

HAHAHAHAH whatever man..whatever...

it's in no way game-breaking...I'm on my 4th play...but that doesn't change the FACT it's a BS excuse and LAZY.  (as is the responce from a dev to just not use daggers in late game...I mean..wtf is that)

#33
TcheQ

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loldude

Did you even play the game?
 
I have a crappy 70 dollar video card, and the textures are beautiful + run perfectly.

So yes, I think you are wrong. Very wrong.

Stop focussing on what you want the game to be, and accept what it is.

What it is to me is an amalgamation of everything great about KOTOR+BG.  Epic win.

bowstrings, seriously? you really make an issue about that?  something you will never see in combat, and adds nothing to the game at alll?  

Respeccing? WTF

What self respecting person would EVER want respeccing in an Epic RPG. If you want it, there's already a mod.

#34
RedShft

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Totally disagree, it's a great game, I have enjoyed every minute of it. The player created mods make it even more fun.

#35
Alex Savchovsky

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Suron, you might be right - but I still prefer lame excuses about non-animated bows to lame (or none at all) excuses for even lamer gameplay.

#36
Appolo90

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purplesunset wrote...

While I DISAGREE with most of the individual gripes that you listed, I can completely relate to the general overall sentiment that you conveyed. Bioware is simply a different company now.

...

I think BioWare's advertising stays true to your cynical view, but the game itself has a lot of artistic elements to me. Sure, the first question to pop up is always going to be "will the buyers like this?" but in the writer's, modeler's, etc. mind the real question is "how I can I make this a beautiful piece of art.. while still pleasing my boss?" Capitalism squanders creativity... I just hate seeing the world from your eyes :( Being a realist can be a huge downer.

#37
Joe Ronimo

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BG II has an unofficial fixpack. Not an official one, an UNofficial one. If you were fine with using that and enabling the rogue fix in there, then you should be fine with using either of the 2 different dagger fixes offered for DA:O so far.



BG II is a masterpiece and so is DA:O.

#38
Asger

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dradiin wrote...
Dex on daggers issue and the lame response (from a Bioware employee) to just use longswords later.


Maybe you're thinking of a different dev response, but the one I saw was perhaps a bit abrasive but a far cry from "just use longswords, n00b". IIRC, it said that using a single dagger was never intended to be competitive in terms of DPS, and that daggers were intended for dual-wielding.

#39
Mordaedil

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1) No Bow strings.
I didn't really notice.

2) Horrible Upclose textures.
This has been addressed actually. It seems there was a mix-up of naming in the high-res textures package, so they show low-res textures even when they should show high-res. A developer has actually said they will work to fix these.

3) Bleh facial animations.
So, I guess the facial animators working for Bioware isn't as good at facial animation as the people working for Valve are? This comes down to a matter of skill over tools, as I think the tools Bioware used weren't less advanced than the tools Valve ever used.

The plus side is that the toolset allows you to make your own lip-synch though, so you can see how "easy" or hard it really is for yourself.

4) Dex on daggers issue and the lame response (from a Bioware employee) to just use longswords later.
Though, the fix that was provided was from Georg Zoeller, provided from his little website.

5) The
lack of a Respec.

I would personally like it if they provided complete console/debug mode for PC users, instead of just "runscript". Then respec wouldn't be an issue, along with a lot of other things.

#40
Few87

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Asger wrote...

dradiin wrote...
Dex on daggers issue and the lame response (from a Bioware employee) to just use longswords later.


Maybe you're thinking of a different dev response, but the one I saw was perhaps a bit abrasive but a far cry from "just use longswords, n00b". IIRC, it said that using a single dagger was never intended to be competitive in terms of DPS, and that daggers were intended for dual-wielding.


hahahahahaha, you see the response actually is more like "just use longswords, n00b". hahahahahahhah

#41
Selvec_Darkon

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That hotfix isn't a viable fix. It changes the enemies as well, effectively increasing the difficulty level of a game that is already considered rather hard. Making the fix not worth using unless you want to play a harder game. Making your advice and arrguments rather flawed.

#42
Mistersunshine

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I played through for 159 hours with a low-strength, high-dexterity rogue using two daggers the whole time, and had no idea that anything was wrong with it before I read it on these forums. I still felt like I was doing piles of damage, killing things very quickly. And that was on Hard, and my first time playing the game. It very clearly was not a game-breaking issue.



Dragon Age IS a masterpiece, the best game BioWare's made yet, and the best CRPG I've ever played. (Even beating out Planescape: Torment finally, after all these years, and that's saying a lot for me!)

#43
purplesunset

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Appolo90 wrote...

purplesunset wrote...

While I DISAGREE with most of the individual gripes that you listed, I can completely relate to the general overall sentiment that you conveyed. Bioware is simply a different company now.

...

I think BioWare's advertising stays true to your cynical view, but the game itself has a lot of artistic elements to me. Sure, the first question to pop up is always going to be "will the buyers like this?" but in the writer's, modeler's, etc. mind the real question is "how I can I make this a beautiful piece of art.. while still pleasing my boss?" Capitalism squanders creativity... I just hate seeing the world from your eyes :( Being a realist can be a huge downer.


Thanks for the understanding reply. You're right, though. I'm sure DA still has many good points to it, and there is certainly a few Biowareans who care more about the creative/artistic aspect of game development.  I'm not a realist by choice though, it's essentially a way to pre-emptively protect myself from pain and dissapointment.

#44
Sibelius1

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I think this is a great game, I'm having a blast, but it's not a masterpiece in my opinion. I am really enjoying the combat, and being a serial pause/micro management freak, I have been having a great time. The story and interactions are usual Bioware fare, absolutely top notch.

The dagger bug & low res textures don't bother me at all.  They can and will be fixed. The bowstring problem, where not ideal does not  affect the game's masterpice status. Although I haven't seen it, if true, their handling of the dagger bug, i.e. use long swords, is shocking. I have used the dagger/bow/xbow/dexterity hotfix and find the improvement of the NPC's as well as my own damage to be better, why shouldn't they be balanced?

Respec is not really a feature that applies to this kind of singleplayer game (normally)

The fact that the PC starts with skills and talents based on origin is not ideal in my opinion, but it does make sense and was a valid decision taken by the devs. An option to follow the dev's vision or create your own origin skills and talents would have been better. Same goes for NPC autolevelling.

Leaving these additional character creation/levelling options to modders to implement (I have used the No NPC Auto Level mod for Wynne's skills) is pretty lazy, but again does not preclude the game from Masterpiece status.

What's your problem then? I hear you ask.

There is nowhere near enough clarity or detail in regards to skills, talents, spells and game mechanics for my tastes.

We have heard excuses about localisation timetables dictating that they could not have accurate descriptions in their tooltips, as they were still balancing the talents after the tooltips were complete and "locked down".

That is no excuse. Why not leave the tooltips till last on your list of tasks, balance your game first, then create and translate the tooltips. Surely every other game I have played with accurate tooltips has followed this route. Seems like a clear case of bad task scheduling to me, and the issue should have been corrected before release. Not only that, but there are no plans to fix this outwith a mod fix, and that is completely unacceptable in my opinion.

This also gives weight to the arguement there should have been a respec option, but how could the developers have justified having a respec feature without saying  "Our talent and spell descriptions are crap, so you might want to use this respec feature if  you chose a few crap talents, and want to change to a more effective build"?

I also love feedback, to see who I hit or missed, for how much and why. I love to see my attack rolls, enemy defence rolls, resistances, armour rating, all that detailed lovliness that makes up a combat log. I am not a min/maxer in any way shape or form, I just love to view feedback and pore over the stats. It adds depth.

Alas, Bioware have decided that this information/depth is no longer required for their party RPGs, and although I don't agree with them, my opinion is based purely on personal preference, where their's presumably is based on market research and focus groups, so I can understand and respect their decision to cut the combat log.

Although I appreciate their honesty in admitting a combat log will never be added, and respect their decision to cut it, I find the resoning they have given for their decision to cut the combat log questionable.  The factors taken into account in their decision, according to Georg were Accessibility, UI Clutter, Optimisation not being required, Combat Log being CPU intensive & Cost vs Benefits Analysis

Accessibility of the game could have been solved with an On/Off toggle

UI clutter could have been soved by adding the log to the journal ala KOTOR

Optimisation not being required is questionable at higher difficulty levels

Combat log being very system intensive seems questionable, and has been questioned directly by another poster working with the toolset claiming to be a developer that has worked on Hitman games.

That leaves us with one more reason they have given for cutting the combat log, and one which I feel, if they were being completely honest, they would admit it boils down to: Cost vs Benefits Analysis.

To conclude it is the lack of detail and arguably the dumbing down of the game that has stopped me awarding masterpiece status to Dragon Age: Origins. 

I can see where the OP is coming from when he talks about his disappointment with Bioware, however, as an esteemed poster has already pointed out on this thread, they seem to be aiming for a new audience and drawing in new fans to their already swollen fan(boy?)base. I too have graduated from the school of realism, and have come to accept that things change and not always for the best for me personally.

Modifié par Sibelius1, 23 novembre 2009 - 03:12 .


#45
Alneverus

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Shannara13 wrote...

Of course we found it on day one, there are hundreds of thousands of us, every bug that is not the most obscure thing in the world was found on Day 1. As a tester I know that any bug can be introduced at any time and it is impossible to test every aspect every build. Should they have found it? Sure, but **** happens. People make mistakes, life goes on.


Or they didn't have someone perform a regular weapon test via a test plan. It's a rather easy thing to detect as well. Increase stat X 3 points. Attack target, observe.

#46
Asger

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Few87 wrote...

Asger wrote...

dradiin wrote...
Dex on daggers issue and the lame response (from a Bioware employee) to just use longswords later.


Maybe you're thinking of a different dev response, but the one I saw was perhaps a bit abrasive but a far cry from "just use longswords, n00b". IIRC, it said that using a single dagger was never intended to be competitive in terms of DPS, and that daggers were intended for dual-wielding.


hahahahahaha, you see the response actually is more like "just use longswords, n00b". hahahahahahhah


...What?

Which response? The one I paraphrased or a different one? If the former, why? If the latter, link please?

#47
Appolo90

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Selvec_Darkon wrote...

That hotfix isn't a viable fix. It changes the enemies as well, effectively increasing the difficulty level of a game that is already considered rather hard. Making the fix not worth using unless you want to play a harder game. Making your advice and arrguments rather flawed.

How does a flawed hotfix nullify ALL my points? Talk about over-encompassing the situation.

Even if the Hotfix doesn't fix it, you know as well as I do that the developers will release the fix in a patch. It just a matter of when, not if.

Modifié par Appolo90, 23 novembre 2009 - 04:19 .


#48
Dauphin2

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The first thing I noticed about this game was, just how amazingly realistic the graphics were. Leather looks leathery. Metal looks metallic, etc. And not in a hyper exaggerated way like most games, but in a very realistic, believable way. The use of bump maps and displacement was very well executed. Even their skin shader inspired awe in me. I can say without a doubt I've not seen graphics this good outside of Maya or some other hardcore rendering application.



I can't see anyone saying the graphics are 'poor'. Of course it may be that I'm playing on a PC, with Dual Nvidia GTX285's running in SLI and have everything cranked to the max at 1920x1080 resolution. Maybe that leaves consoles in the dust.

#49
The Movie Star

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At first I shared the OP's sentiment, but the game has since grown on me.  But no matter how you feel about the game, you've got to respect Bioware.  Most devs are terrified of risk, they re-create and re-create the same title that put them on the map in the first place in hopes that title recognition and loyalty will continue to pay their bills, without ever taking another risk on their own creativity.  But not Bioware.  They are the only ones out there with the balls to continue making truly new titles.  Can you even imagine a world with a spineless Bioware?  A Bioware that never took a risk on new IP?  There would be no NWN, Mass Effect, Kotor, DA.  We would have Baldur's Gate #9 right now.  So, even if you don't like DA, give them some credit, you can't bat 1000 all the time.

And remember, Bioware are no longer the masters of their own destiny, EA is now in the mix.  What you take for "laziness" might be the frustrating effect of working for a corporate sausage factory.  Project leads waiting for hours or days on the go ahead from management to make a character's eyes blue.. devs being made to put 90% of their time into screenshot upload mechanisms and 10% into everything else..  I hope I'm wrong though.  I would prefer simple laziness to that, come to think of it.

#50
Tamerlane94

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my game looks nothing short of amazing...go to my profile and see the screens if u dnt beleive me...almost as good as mass effect

maybe its just my machine but i cant understand when people complain about the visuals in this game :S