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[Chrisimo]

AlexXIV wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Is TIM a bad guy? Depends on who you ask. Was Hitler a bad guy?
Because that is who TIM is. The only thing that seperates him from Hitler is that he doesn't have as much power yet. Everything else that is important is the same. Because you don't need much aside from power to be a Hitler. You only need the right ideology. And the ideology of Cerberus and the ****s is identical.

Erm...no. No, not really.

Cerberus doesn't view humanity as the master species that should dominate the other species?

He never says that. Especially the part with the master species. But he is probably thinking, since he is human (as far as we can tell) that if he put the humans in a position to dominate the galaxy then he himself would gain enough power, influence, reputation, etc. to actually make the calls. And if he thinks that the current council/government is incompetent then he probably also thinks that human dominance is for the better of the whole galaxy. He never really makes statements that suggest genocide or anything like that. Neither does he suggest wiping out other species or enslaving them or whatever. Some Cerberus fanboys may think so, but that's their problem, not TIM's, or ours.

Look, he doesn't need to say that directly. Hitler didn't talk openly about genocide. The original plan for the jews was not extermination but extradition. Of course organisations like this wouldn't openly adopt a plan for genocide if they are not in a posiiton of power, if ever. For his viewpoints you just need to read the books. Everything alien is inferior in his viewpoint.
But you don't need even that. You just need to believe him when he says he will try to achieve human dominance by all means neccessary.

Genocide is not just killing people. It starts with socially suppressing them. Like not allow them in certain jobs, or areas, etc. It happened quite openly in germany. And the world watched. Just sayin'

Exactly. Organisations like this start slowly. If they are smart they don't state their agendas openly. And they would probably never speak openly about genocide even if that is the plan. They adapt their rhethoric and their methods to the situation at hand. It would be nearly impossible today for a new Hitler to come into a position of power in Germany in the same manner as Adolf Hitler back then. Today would require different methods and rhethoric.
When you read TIMs thoughts in the books it is clear that he views aliens as inferior. That doesn't mean he will say so. Of course he will use the rhethoric that will serve him best. But if you read his thoughts is is clear that even the though that something alien is better than something human is unthinkable to him.

[Dean_the_Young]

Or how the central Cerberus choice in the story is about him wanting advanced alien technology.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

So it's not weird for me. I assume Tali has a word in it and who really wants to mess with her? Anyway, for Renegades is may be ... unexpectable.

Don't get me started on Tali and her weird behavior.

The quarians should have taken Veetor and ran without looking back. Cerberus could find out the information they need later, through their spies.

A human colony was wiped out/abducted. And Shepard (a Council Spectre, even if MIA) was investigating. It is a matter of compassion to hand Shepard the data he/she needs. It wasn't about top secret information that threatened the Migrant fleet. Just about what had happened in the colony. If actually Tali had not gave the information to Shepard then she wouldn't need to come to me every again with anything. Some of the other Quarians obviously were not so happy to work with you, but Tali was the leader. Tali owes alot to my Shepard, her life, success of her pilgrimage, becomming one of the heroes who saved the Citadel (despite public opinion Shepard didn't do it on his/her own).

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

He never says that. Especially the part with the master species. But he is probably thinking, since he is human (as far as we can tell) that if he put the humans in a position to dominate the galaxy then he himself would gain enough power, influence, reputation, etc. to actually make the calls. And if he thinks that the current council/government is incompetent then he probably also thinks that human dominance is for the better of the whole galaxy. He never really makes statements that suggest genocide or anything like that. Neither does he suggest wiping out other species or enslaving them or whatever. Some Cerberus fanboys may think so, but that's their problem, not TIM's, or ours.

Uh, what?

Which Cerberus fanboys have seriously argued for Cerberus on the basis of genocide or enslavement of aliens?

That's usually the accusation of the detractors.

[AlexXIV]

Chrisimo wrote...

Exactly. Organisations like this start slowly. If they are smart they don't state their agendas openly. And they would probably never speak openly about genocide even if that is the plan. They adapt their rhethoric and their methods to the situation at hand. It would be nearly impossible today for a new Hitler to come into a position of power in Germany in the same manner as Adolf Hitler back then. Today would require different methods and rhethoric.
When you read TIMs thoughts in the books it is clear that he views aliens as inferior. That doesn't mean he will say so. Of course he will use the rhethoric that will serve him best. But if you read his thoughts is is clear that even the though that something alien is better than something human is unthinkable to him.

Well it is good to keep your eyes open and be careful, especially with Cerberus. I never doubted that. But that doesn't mean we should jump to conclusions and judge prematurely. Also I didn't read the books. And I won't either, at least not until I finished ME3. Also I don't know how much canon books are for games in general. In alot of franchises games ignore facts from books and the other way round. From personal experience with TIM (in ME2) I can't say that he ever said something negative about other species.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

He never says that. Especially the part with the master species. But he is probably thinking, since he is human (as far as we can tell) that if he put the humans in a position to dominate the galaxy then he himself would gain enough power, influence, reputation, etc. to actually make the calls. And if he thinks that the current council/government is incompetent then he probably also thinks that human dominance is for the better of the whole galaxy. He never really makes statements that suggest genocide or anything like that. Neither does he suggest wiping out other species or enslaving them or whatever. Some Cerberus fanboys may think so, but that's their problem, not TIM's, or ours.

Uh, what?

Which Cerberus fanboys have seriously argued for Cerberus on the basis of genocide or enslavement of aliens?

That's usually the accusation of the detractors.

It wasn't much of an arguement. You can't argue it anyway. You can say it, then run for it before the backlash catches you, hehe. My point, some people think of Cerberus alien haters, and support it. You don't want me to name them, do you? Because I won't. But you are long enough on this forum, so I would be surprised if you have not noticed yourself.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Talk-jutsu backfired in ME1 for renegades in ME3.

Which one is that, if I might ask?

Happens in the genophage plot, it's better to not intimidate/charm something in ME1 if you're renegade. It screws you out of a fleet or two.

Ah, that one.

Though to be honest, taken in isolation I think the ME3 handling of the genophage plotline (with Consequences!) is the best in the script. So long as Bioware doesn't make the Krogan magically culturally reformed if you save Wrex and cure the cure, I think the genophage plotline could be the best story of the series.


The overall P/R handling is a separate issue.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

A human colony was wiped out/abducted. And Shepard (a Council Spectre, even if MIA) was investigating.

A dead Council Spectre who is now working with Cerberus.

Two organizations the Migrant Fleet is not exactly on great terms with.

Tali may like Shepard, but the Migrant Fleet doesn't give a **** about him and they call the shots, not Tali.

The disappearances of human colonists is not a concern for the Migrant Fleet anyway.

He was thought to be dead. His body disappeared before they could dissect it. He was declared it without having a body. So ... kind of MIA in my book. It can always happen that a soldier who went missing in battle was declared dead after a while and returned. Actually kind of funny they declared Shepard dead after only 2 years. I think it usually takes longer, 5 or 10 years until they do that without hard evidence (such as a corpse). Not to mention that nobody even picked up the dogtags of the crew for 2 years. Well alot of things don't make much sense.

[Chrisimo]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

But if you read his thoughts is is clear that even the though that something alien is better than something human is unthinkable to him.

So that's why he had Shepard recruit all those aliens in ME2, huh?

Hitler and many of his henchmen were Untermenschen according to his own ideology. He also used creations of inferior races if they proved to be better than the creations of the master race. But that didn't change his views.

[Dean_the_Young]

Edit: Misread. Never mind.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 01 janvier 2012 - 01:46 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Look, he doesn't need to say that directly.

If you want to claim as a fact that he's like that, then yes, yes he has to.

You just need to believe him when he says he will try to achieve human dominance by all means neccessary.

Someone is always dominating. Fact of life.
What's wrong with humans being the ones? You rather Asari dominate? Turians? Batarians?

Genocide is not just killing people. It starts with socially suppressing them. Like not allow them in certain jobs, or areas, etc.

And TIM seems quite content with working with aliens.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 01 janvier 2012 - 01:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Chrisimo wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

But if you read his thoughts is is clear that even the though that something alien is better than something human is unthinkable to him.

So that's why he had Shepard recruit all those aliens in ME2, huh?

Hitler and many of his henchmen were Untermenschen according to his own ideology. He also used creations of inferior races if they proved to be better than the creations of the master race. But that didn't change his views.

Hitler was notorious for putting on the brakes of the 'Jewish Sciences.'

Not, mind you, that you've provided any basis that Cerberus and the Illusive Man is comparable to Hitler in this fashion, so your mistaken historical metaphor needs to back up a few miles.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Though to be honest, taken in isolation I think the ME3 handling of the genophage plotline (with Consequences!) is the best in the script. So long as Bioware doesn't make the Krogan magically culturally reformed if you save Wrex and cure the cure, I think the genophage plotline could be the best story of the series.

Someone is being optimistic here.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And TIM seems quite content with working with aliens.

Let's say he is not above accepting their help if he needs it.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Hitler and many of his henchmen were Untermenschen according to his own ideology. He also used creations of inferior races if they proved to be better than the creations of the master race. But that didn't change his views.

Right. Anyway, I think the world would have been better off if the Axis won.

Uh-oh, this kind of humor isn't going well around here. I know you're probably just ****ing with him, but still.

[Dean_the_Young]

No probably about it. Saphra has a humor as wet as the Mohave.

[Chrisimo]

AlexXIV wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Exactly. Organisations like this start slowly. If they are smart they don't state their agendas openly. And they would probably never speak openly about genocide even if that is the plan. They adapt their rhethoric and their methods to the situation at hand. It would be nearly impossible today for a new Hitler to come into a position of power in Germany in the same manner as Adolf Hitler back then. Today would require different methods and rhethoric.
When you read TIMs thoughts in the books it is clear that he views aliens as inferior. That doesn't mean he will say so. Of course he will use the rhethoric that will serve him best. But if you read his thoughts is is clear that even the though that something alien is better than something human is unthinkable to him.

Well it is good to keep your eyes open and be careful, especially with Cerberus. I never doubted that. But that doesn't mean we should jump to conclusions and judge prematurely. Also I didn't read the books. And I won't either, at least not until I finished ME3. Also I don't know how much canon books are for games in general. In alot of franchises games ignore facts from books and the other way round. From personal experience with TIM (in ME2) I can't say that he ever said something negative about other species.

The real problem here is the following question; At what point can someone be considered a Hitler? It seems to be that your answer would be that a person could only be considered the equivalent of Hitler when the person has done what Hitler has done. The younger Hitler who has just written finished Mein Kampf in 1925 could not be considered an equivalent of Hitler because we could not know for sure how he would develop. If we take this premise as the basis of our argument then I agree that TIM is not Hitler.
But when I compare someone to Hitler I do it because I want to prevent someone from gaining enough power to become the next Hitler. Therefore I try to identify the main criteria that made Hitler do what he did besides power. And I think the main criteria is his ideology combined with the fact that he doesn't play by any rules. The last part is actually the most imporant one. Many people have ideologies and many people view their interests as superior to others. Yet they don't do what Hitler did even if they are in a position of power. Many acknowledge that they can only act against the interests of others under certain circumstances. The only thing that limits Cerberus' actions is the amount of power the organisation has. If Cerberus gains enough power it seems highly likely that TIM wouldn't hesitate to exterminate or at least severely limit the population of a species that threatens human dominance in any way.

[Dean_the_Young]

Chrisimo wrote...


The real problem here is the following question; At what point can someone be considered a Hitler? It seems to be that your answer would be that a person could only be considered the equivalent of Hitler when the person has done what Hitler has done. The younger Hitler who has just written finished Mein Kampf in 1925 could not be considered an equivalent of Hitler because we could not know for sure how he would develop. If we take this premise as the basis of our argument then I agree that TIM is not Hitler.

But when I compare someone to Hitler I do it because I want to prevent someone from gaining enough power to become the next Hitler. Therefore I try to identify the main criteria that made Hitler do what he did besides power. And I think the main criteria is his ideology combined with the fact that he doesn't play by any rules. The last part is actually the most imporant one. Many people have ideologies and many people view their interests as superior to others. Yet they don't do what Hitler did even if they are in a position of power. Many acknowledge that they can only act against the interests of others under certain circumstances. The only thing that limits Cerberus' actions is the amount of power the organisation has. If Cerberus gains enough power it seems highly likely that TIM wouldn't hesitate to exterminate or at least severely limit the population of a species that threatens human dominance in any way.

Your analysis of what makes someone a Hitler is staggering. Even more so than your analysis of Cerberus.

[Chrisimo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

But if you read his thoughts is is clear that even the though that something alien is better than something human is unthinkable to him.

So that's why he had Shepard recruit all those aliens in ME2, huh?

Hitler and many of his henchmen were Untermenschen according to his own ideology. He also used creations of inferior races if they proved to be better than the creations of the master race. But that didn't change his views.

Hitler was notorious for putting on the brakes of the 'Jewish Sciences.'

Not, mind you, that you've provided any basis that Cerberus and the Illusive Man is comparable to Hitler in this fashion, so your mistaken historical metaphor needs to back up a few miles.

TIM clearly states that he will achieve his goal of human dominance by all means neccessary. That alone is basis enough because it allows him to do anything he needs to achieve his goal and his actions show that he has no qualms about morality. But maybe you can tell me why you think he won't act like Hitler when he gains enough power.

[Chrisimo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...


The real problem here is the following question; At what point can someone be considered a Hitler? It seems to be that your answer would be that a person could only be considered the equivalent of Hitler when the person has done what Hitler has done. The younger Hitler who has just written finished Mein Kampf in 1925 could not be considered an equivalent of Hitler because we could not know for sure how he would develop. If we take this premise as the basis of our argument then I agree that TIM is not Hitler.

But when I compare someone to Hitler I do it because I want to prevent someone from gaining enough power to become the next Hitler. Therefore I try to identify the main criteria that made Hitler do what he did besides power. And I think the main criteria is his ideology combined with the fact that he doesn't play by any rules. The last part is actually the most imporant one. Many people have ideologies and many people view their interests as superior to others. Yet they don't do what Hitler did even if they are in a position of power. Many acknowledge that they can only act against the interests of others under certain circumstances. The only thing that limits Cerberus' actions is the amount of power the organisation has. If Cerberus gains enough power it seems highly likely that TIM wouldn't hesitate to exterminate or at least severely limit the population of a species that threatens human dominance in any way.

Your analysis of what makes someone a Hitler is staggering. Even more so than your analysis of Cerberus.

And your comment is near worthless. I realize that my definition of hat makes a Hitler may differ from others, likely from most. That is why I posted it. To find common ground. To communicate. You don't want to communicate but instead assert your superior understanding by posting irrelevant comments? Fine with me - go ahead.

[AlexXIV]

Thing is just Hitler has at one point been a new born cute little baby (I suspect at least he wasn't always ugly). I think you're going a bit the easy road. I am a paragon player because it is my mindset irl too. And that means for me being open minded. I don't think it is good in order to hunt fascists start hunting everyone who shows a bit of a fascist streak. It is dependant on personal history, enviroment, etc. I am sure Hitler could, under different circumstances, have become a nice guy, an asset to any society. His personal history and enviroment, his personal experience made him the 'monster' he became. So ... different people have different histories, so I think it is the good thing to do if you at least give them the chance to prove you wrong. I really don't know how TIM came to be but probably something happened. But nobody is irredeemable. Even Saren wasn't (in my paragon playthrough anyway) in the end. So yeah I think prejudice is wrong, in any of it's forms (even though it is a natural mechanism to have a first impression and evaluate a situation before the facts). Even if one's intentions are the best and one's a pacifist and philantropist.

[Dean_the_Young]

Chrisimo wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

But if you read his thoughts is is clear that even the though that something alien is better than something human is unthinkable to him.

So that's why he had Shepard recruit all those aliens in ME2, huh?

Hitler and many of his henchmen were Untermenschen according to his own ideology. He also used creations of inferior races if they proved to be better than the creations of the master race. But that didn't change his views.

Hitler was notorious for putting on the brakes of the 'Jewish Sciences.'

Not, mind you, that you've provided any basis that Cerberus and the Illusive Man is comparable to Hitler in this fashion, so your mistaken historical metaphor needs to back up a few miles.

TIM clearly states that he will achieve his goal of human dominance by all means neccessary. That alone is basis enough because it allows him to do anything he needs to achieve his goal and his actions show that he has no qualms about morality.

No, it isn't, because you fail to understand something critical about amorality.

Amorality isn't the argument for doing anything.

Amorality is the lack of a moral reason not to do something... but the reasons to do something have to be grounded in something else, and overcome the non-moral reasons to not do the actions. Hitler's genocidal policies weren't based on logical advancement of power, they were based on the primacy of racial-purity supremacy ideologies of intrensic race superiority.

Anyone not having the primacy of such beliefs will have to have some other reason to conduct genocide... and genocide is a horribly costly policy with few benefits.

But maybe you can tell me why you think he won't act like Hitler when he gains enough power.

Because Hitler was an idiot, and acting like Hitler when you get to power is the best way to lose power.

Hitler didn't rise to power by acting in the ways that made Hitler horrific. Hitler destroyed his power by acting in the ways that made Hitler horrific.

Anyone who wants power, and wants to keep power, has no reason to act like Hitler.