325 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Chrisimo wrote...
The council follows rules. Americans follow rules.

I'm pissing myself laughing.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not quite. Vietnam was a USSR client, not a Chinese client. China's support was charging the USSR fees to let there be transit of goods. China under Mao and Vietnam under Ho never got along.

Ah yes, but they played for the same team anyway. Soviet Union and China I mean. Well and even if they only fought the Japanese, the Japanese plan was to occupy chinese regions for their endless need of oil and metal. So China after all hindered Japan's war effort. Not that the end of the war depended on it, especially since 2 bombs decided it.

[GodWood]

Why is it never Japan?
Unit 731 has got Cerberus written all over it.

[DRSH]

Well if TIM is a good guy that's good because I already liked him. If he's a bad guy, that's good too cause he's my kind of baddie. TIM is awesome however you put it.

[AlexXIV]

GodWood wrote...

Why is it never Japan?
Unit 731 has got Cerberus written all over it.

Were those the manned bombs? Seen a report on TV about it. Well or Kamikaze in general.

Edit: Nevermind, googled it. Yeah sounds like Cerberus, even though the germans did the same. So ...

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 janvier 2012 - 03:42 .

[Mecha Tengu]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not quite. Vietnam was a USSR client, not a Chinese client. China's support was charging the USSR fees to let there be transit of goods. China under Mao and Vietnam under Ho never got along.

Ah yes, but they played for the same team anyway. Soviet Union and China I mean. Well and even if they only fought the Japanese, the Japanese plan was to occupy chinese regions for their endless need of oil and metal. So China after all hindered Japan's war effort. Not that the end of the war depended on it, especially since 2 bombs decided it.

The Soviets did not fight the japanese until at the very end of the war

[Mecha Tengu]

AlexXIV wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Why is it never Japan?
Unit 731 has got Cerberus written all over it.

Were those the manned bombs? Seen a report on TV about it. Well or Kamikaze in general.

no, that was the biological experimentation unit that performed brutal experiments on life prisoners and captured civilians

oh and their leader unit was pardonned by Mcarthur and was granted Diplomatic immunity by the Americans due to his invaluable research

[AlexXIV]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

oh and their leader unit was pardonned by Mcarthur and was granted Diplomatic immunity by the Americans due to his invaluable research

Ahaha ... sorry, that was funny, no? You know I am not really good with details sometimes but I get the overall meaning of things usually. Not unexpected but ... oh well ... it is better to just think that the world is a wh0rehouse than actually getting proof for it.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 janvier 2012 - 03:48 .

[GodWood]

AlexXIV wrote...
Edit: Nevermind, googled it. Yeah sounds like Cerberus, even though the germans did the same. So ...

Shiro Ishii's work seemed to be more scientifically driven whereas Josef Mengele's was more or less just sadism.

Mecha Tengu wrote...
oh and their leader unit was pardonned by Mcarthur and was granted Diplomatic immunity by the Americans due to his invaluable research

I never understood why they didn't just steal research then off him.

[AlexXIV]

GodWood wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Edit: Nevermind, googled it. Yeah sounds like Cerberus, even though the germans did the same. So ...

Shiro Ishii's work seemed to be more scientifically driven whereas Josef Mengele's was more or less just sadism.

Mecha Tengu wrote...
oh and their leader unit was pardonned by Mcarthur and was granted Diplomatic immunity by the Americans due to his invaluable research

I never understood why they didn't just steal research then off him.

Maybe they wanted his cooperation. It's probably faster.

[Dean_the_Young]

Chrisimo wrote...

I never said that amorality is a reason to do something.

No, that was the basis of your argument. That being amoral was, in and of itself, enough. Now you're backtracking.

I said that he has no qualms about morality which means that he doesn't care for morality in any way. He cares about results, about reaching his goals. To achieve his goals he will use any means neccessary, which means that the only factor in the decision of i.e. exterminating the turians would be the usefulness of such action in relation to his goals. If it would be useful (or if he simply wants to do it and the action doesn't hurt him) he would do it, if it would hurt his goals he wouldn't.

What you've just argued is the standing policy for the Citadel Council, and Shepard, who have both had more genocides under their belt than Cerberus. What you have not argued is how genocide is an effective means to TIM's goals, even without considering the costs that come along was it.


Hitler didn't pursue genocide as a means to an end. Genocide was the end.

Excactly. Hitler didn't rise to power by acting in the way that made him horrific. He acted smarter before he came to power. But you have not answered my question. Hitler lost the connection to reality once he gained control over germany. He lost this connection more and more over time. Again, what makes you think that Cerberus/TIm would not act in the way Hitler did after his rise to power?

Why should I? The burden of suspicion is on you to support, not for me to disprove a negative.

Hitler, as he ascended power, was always an advocate eugenics and racial purity and his hatred of Jews: people just didn't take him seriously. The Illusive Man has not advocated eugenics, not advocated or practiced genocidal policies despite the ability to,

Hitler was an exception, not a norm, to authoritarianism. If you want to argue that someone is equivalent to an exceptional case, you must show why. Ability alone is not enough, because most tyrants don't.

Because he is too smart?

Should I assume he's a moron instead?

That's what your argument really amounts to at this point: that, having gotten power (and if he gets power, it won't be through populism), that TIM will turn around and lose it in the ways Hitler did, without any of the reasons for why, and few of the means as to how, Hitler did what Hitler did.

Hitler's reason for mas genocide was ideological racisal superiority. Hitler's reason for war-mongering was a fascist, expansionist ideology. Both of these were foreseeable before his rise, if not recognized by most. Neither of these have been established with regards to TIM.

[Mikey_205]

I don't think the Illusive Man as seen in game is evil he's just very morally ambiguous. I do kind of like the idea of him being warped by indoctrination. But at the same time he's the kind of character that would do well to feature in the next Mass Effect post trilogy game.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not quite. Vietnam was a USSR client, not a Chinese client. China's support was charging the USSR fees to let there be transit of goods. China under Mao and Vietnam under Ho never got along.

Ah yes, but they played for the same team anyway. Soviet Union and China I mean. Well and even if they only fought the Japanese, the Japanese plan was to occupy chinese regions for their endless need of oil and metal. So China after all hindered Japan's war effort. Not that the end of the war depended on it, especially since 2 bombs decided it.

Not really an accurate portrayal.

China was in a civil war at the same time as it was under Japanese invasion, with Japan fighting just about every warlord they were in contact with. The Communists in Mao were not the dominant faction of the Chinese resistance, that was the nationalists (who were only overcome after the end of the war).

Japan wasn't occupying China for oil and metal: oil and metal what were they needed to occupy China, which was the fubar of fubars for the Japanese military for different reasons. The war with the US came because the US wouldn't underwrite the Japanese war effort with oil and metal, and that's why the Japanese embarked on their sweep of the colonies in the South Pacific (to get alternative sources).

China hindered the Japanese economy, yes, but more because of sheer size than any common team... and not for the ways that made Japan lose the war. Japan lost in the Pacific because of the American navy, which outmatched Japan without China (which was a land war). Japan lost on mainland asia because the Soveit Union sent one of the most battlehardened, well equiped armies in the world against what had always been an under-equiped, more-hype-than-might Japanese army.

Historians fiercly debate how much the atomic bombings factored into Japan's own considerations, and many put the invasion of the Soviets, not the atomic bombings, as the primary factor for the Japanese surrender.

[AlexXIV]

Well one could argue though that science (and TIM is sort of a scientist or leader of a scientific interested organisation) without morals is going to have terrible results. Not terrible in 'fail', but in 'at what costs'. I mean the question with TIM is not what is he willing to sacrifice, but rather what is he not willing to sacrifice. Is there even anything? Despite his assurances that he is doing it for humankind we have nothing like proof. I mean if you supported him in any way it is a matter of trust, not of reason. I mean to rule the galaxy you don't need all races, not even many of one. I'd say 1000 humans (or make it 10000 or 100000), would be enough to start a colony after all other sentient life has been eradicated. And then you multiply and with the tech at hand TIM may get old enough to see his own empire reclaim the galaxy. After all Reaper tech can make you next to immortal. It does the trick for the Reapers too. And you would have peace. Because with only one race you have no racial tensions. I mean there could be rational reasons to be the cruelest person in the world. What makes us human is not just our ability to reason. It is also about empathy. And lack thereof makes one a sociopath.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 janvier 2012 - 04:19 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Not quite. Vietnam was a USSR client, not a Chinese client. China's support was charging the USSR fees to let there be transit of goods. China under Mao and Vietnam under Ho never got along.

Ah yes, but they played for the same team anyway. Soviet Union and China I mean. Well and even if they only fought the Japanese, the Japanese plan was to occupy chinese regions for their endless need of oil and metal. So China after all hindered Japan's war effort. Not that the end of the war depended on it, especially since 2 bombs decided it.

Not really an accurate portrayal.

China was in a civil war at the same time as it was under Japanese invasion, with Japan fighting just about every warlord they were in contact with. The Communists in Mao were not the dominant faction of the Chinese resistance, that was the nationalists (who were only overcome after the end of the war).

Japan wasn't occupying China for oil and metal: oil and metal what were they needed to occupy China, which was the fubar of fubars for the Japanese military for different reasons. The war with the US came because the US wouldn't underwrite the Japanese war effort with oil and metal, and that's why the Japanese embarked on their sweep of the colonies in the South Pacific (to get alternative sources).

China hindered the Japanese economy, yes, but more because of sheer size than any common team... and not for the ways that made Japan lose the war. Japan lost in the Pacific because of the American navy, which outmatched Japan without China (which was a land war). Japan lost on mainland asia because the Soveit Union sent one of the most battlehardened, well equiped armies in the world against what had always been an under-equiped, more-hype-than-might Japanese army.

Historians fiercly debate how much the atomic bombings factored into Japan's own considerations, and many put the invasion of the Soviets, not the atomic bombings, as the primary factor for the Japanese surrender.

Well yes, I like to keep things simple, so I simplify alot, but of course you are right I wasn't being accurate.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV, I'm going to be perfectly blunt. And understand that I'm not implying, at all, that that is what you believe.

But that's an moronically inept vision of 'human interests.'

Killing everyone but Humans doesn't stop Humans from getting in wars. Killing all but a breeding population doesn't advance human interests, it destroys nearly all of it.

That's not rationality for evil. That's just reducto ad absurdum.


We'll ignore the argument of how much empathy someone needs to submit to to be human versus sociopathic (which, apparently, is not human). That's a subjective argument of another subject.

But what you tried to suggest is moronic to the extreme, and you can't even argue that that is TIM's vision.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well yes, I like to keep things simple, so I simplify alot, but of course you are right I wasn't being accurate.

Simple and wrong is simply wrong. Just go for correct.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well yes, I like to keep things simple, so I simplify alot, but of course you are right I wasn't being accurate.

Simple and wrong is simply wrong. Just go for correct.

If we're going to have a discussion about WW2 in a proper place I'll try to be as accurate as possible. Which is probably still less accurate that you probably wish, but still ...

Anyway, for this kind of discussion here it was accurate enough I think. Especially since it was off topic anyway and didn't really add to the discussion about TIM.

[Dean_the_Young]

GodWood wrote...

Why is it never Japan?
Unit 731 has got Cerberus written all over it.

Because the US gave Unit 731 a pass, and few people know about it.

Which is a shame, because I agree it would apply quite well.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV, I'm going to be perfectly blunt. And understand that I'm not implying, at all, that that is what you believe.

But that's an moronically inept vision of 'human interests.'

Killing everyone but Humans doesn't stop Humans from getting in wars. Killing all but a breeding population doesn't advance human interests, it destroys nearly all of it.

That's not rationality for evil. That's just reducto ad absurdum.


We'll ignore the argument of how much empathy someone needs to submit to to be human versus sociopathic (which, apparently, is not human). That's a subjective argument of another subject.

But what you tried to suggest is moronic to the extreme, and you can't even argue that that is TIM's vision.

It's only reducto ad absurdum if you're not thinking about playing god. In a world where you are god. TIM, using reaper tech, could be as powerful as he wishes to be. Basically like a god. If we assume these things are possible in the ME universe it is not so absurd. I mean I know of other stories where the big bad wants to wipe out all life to create his own universe, from scrap. Without what he considers 'flaws' in natural evolution. I mean it is even what humans try to do all the time. We try to bend nature to our will. Make it our useful servant and provider for everything we need. And if you have an eternity you don't need to advance quickly. You have alot of time to shape things according to your will and wish.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 janvier 2012 - 04:33 .

[Ramus Quaritch]

What if The Illusive Man and Cerberus aren't really terrorists? What if they're really the ones being terrorized... BY WEREWOLVES FROM THE FUTURE???

[AlexXIV]

Ramus Quaritch wrote...

What if The Illusive Man and Cerberus aren't really terrorists? What if they're really the ones being terrorized... BY WEREWOLVES FROM THE FUTURE???

Does that mean the werewolf clans defeated the vampire clans in the future?

[Dean_the_Young]

It's a reducto ad absurdum even if you are thinking about playing god. The very presupposition that TIM wishes to remake creation is an absurd leap. You're taking an extreme and arguing based on it. That's what reducto ad absurdum is.

You're reaching into it even as you argue from the basis that TIM has a god complex, and sees such things as ' 'flaws in natural evolution.' No, Humans do NOT try to do that 'all the time' either, another exaggeration that ignores all things to the contrary.

You haven't even established that TIM has a god complex at all, and you're already arguing on the basis of a genocidal god. That is reducing an argument to the absurd.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

It's a reducto ad absurdum even if you are thinking about playing god. The very presupposition that TIM wishes to remake creation is an absurd leap. You're taking an extreme and arguing based on it. That's what reducto ad absurdum is.

You're reaching into it even as you argue from the basis that TIM has a god complex, and sees such things as ' 'flaws in natural evolution.' No, Humans do NOT try to do that 'all the time' either, another exaggeration that ignores all things to the contrary.

You haven't even established that TIM has a god complex at all, and you're already arguing on the basis of a genocidal god. That is reducing an argument to the absurd.

Well I am not TIM's psychotherapist. How could I establish his state of mind? I am just discussing possibilities. I am not saying it is likely so or probably or whatever. Just an option, even if far fetched.

Thing is just that Cerberus already developed the Lazarus Project. Which can bring the dead back to life. That's pretty close to godliness if you asked me. If I had such tech to my disposal I wouldn't just accept death. I mean we all have to die, we know it, accepted it, etc. But we don't live in a world where it is possible to live billion years, and we don't have he tech that would allow it. I don't know about you, but if I knew of a way to escape death then I would probably be intrigued.

Though what if I learned that to become immortal I'd have to let 10% of the world population die. Right now I think I wouldn't do it. But had I seen the borders of the world, and knew there is no such thing as a god, or heaven or hell. That morality is an illusion. That those who die don't go to another place or whatever, they simply disappear as if they never lived etc. And that the immortality this tech provides is the only real immortality that exists. I mean that's something to think about.

[Labrev]

... so still nothing on my supposedly "exaggerated" claims - ?

looks like people really don't have any idea what they're talking about.