325 réponses à ce sujet

[Chrisimo]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]Chrisimo wrote...

I never said that amorality is a reason to do something. [/quote]

No, that was the basis of your argument. That being amoral was, in and of itself, enough. Now you're backtracking.
[/quote]

Really? quote me please.
What I said was that TIM clearly stated that he wants to achieve his goal of human dominance by any means neccessary. I also said that his past actions show that he has no moral qualms. That means that one should take him seriously when he says he wants to achieve human dominance by any means neccessary. That does not mean that his lack or disregard of morals is the reason he does what he does. It means that his goal of human dominance is the reason he does what he does.

[quote]
[quote]
I said that he has no qualms about morality which means that he doesn't care for morality in any way. He cares about results, about reaching his goals. To achieve his goals he will use any means neccessary, which means that the only factor in the decision of i.e. exterminating the turians would be the usefulness of such action in relation to his goals. If it would be useful (or if he simply wants to do it and the action doesn't hurt him) he would do it, if it would hurt his goals he wouldn't.[/quote]

What you've just argued is the standing policy for the Citadel Council, and Shepard, who have both had more genocides under their belt than Cerberus. What you have not argued is how genocide is an effective means to TIM's goals, even without considering the costs that come along was it.
[/quote]

The cost depends on the situation and the amount of power one has. If TIM was a Reaper there would be virtually no cost. So what cost exactly are you talking about?

[quote]
Hitler didn't pursue genocide as a means to an end. Genocide was the end.
[/quote]

The original plan was actually deportation and not extermination. And genocide was not the end. It was the means to fulfill Hitlers and others desires.

[quote]
[quote]
Excactly. Hitler didn't rise to power by acting in the way that made him horrific. He acted smarter before he came to power. But you have not answered my question. Hitler lost the connection to reality once he gained control over germany. He lost this connection more and more over time. Again, what makes you think that Cerberus/TIm would not act in the way Hitler did after his rise to power?[/quote]

Why should I? The burden of suspicion is on you to support, not for me to disprove a negative.
[/quote]

I am comparing TIM to Hitler in his earlier days. I cannot know what TIM will do therefore I cannot say that he is Hitler until he does what Hitler did. I am not only comparing TIM to Hitler but also to similar people who killed millions in the name of an ideology which defines specific groups of people as inferior and allows them to take away all their rights without restrictions, like Stalin and Mao. I chose Hitler in my introduction because his chosen group of dominance is defined by genetics, not belief or anything else.

[quote]
Hitler, as he ascended power, was always an advocate eugenics and racial purity and his hatred of Jews: people just didn't take him seriously. The Illusive Man has not advocated eugenics, not advocated or practiced genocidal policies despite the ability to,
[/quote]

He may not have openly advocated eugenics but he practiced it by killing a lot of humans so that some genetically enhanced babies may be born.
And he doesn't have the ability to advocate or practive genocide if he wants to gain power. Like you said, genocide comes at a cost - the less power you have the greater the cost. Even Hitler didn't openly advocate genocide.

[quote]
Hitler was an exception, not a norm, to authoritarianism. If you want to argue that someone is equivalent to an exceptional case, you must show why. Ability alone is not enough, because most tyrants don't.
[/quote]

Like I said, I chose Hitler because of his chosen in-group.



[quote]
That's what your argument really amounts to at this point: that, having gotten power (and if he gets power, it won't be through populism), that TIM will turn around and lose it in the ways Hitler did, without any of the reasons for why, and few of the means as to how, Hitler did what Hitler did.
[/quote]

I cannot state the means until he has them. The control over a Reaper or possibly all Reapers would be a means to do a lot of things without the fear of retribution. Enough advancement of humanity in terms of genetics or technology and the ability to manipulate the thoughts of enough humans would be a means. Although more risky (depending on the level of advancement).

[quote]
Hitler's reason for mas genocide was ideological racisal superiority. Hitler's reason for war-mongering was a fascist, expansionist ideology. Both of these were foreseeable before his rise, if not recognized by most. Neither of these have been established with regards to TIM.
[/quote]

Neither of these were forseeable by the rules you require. They were an option but not a certainity. True, TIM is not as elaborate as Hitler when it comes to his plans reasons for chosing humanity as the chosen species or his plans for dealing with the aliens. Like with Hitler there is simply potential for him to develop in a certain way. In neither case one could be sure. You think that my observations don't warrant my suspicion? That's ok. But it seems to me that you find it highly unlikely that TIM or Cerberus would act like Hitler. Maybe you can tell me why...

[Labrev]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

... so still nothing on my supposedly "exaggerated" claims - ?

looks like people really don't have any idea what they're talking about.

page'd.... B-)

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chrisimo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Look, he doesn't need to say that directly.

If you want to claim as a fact that he's like that, then yes, yes he has to.

So someone needs to say the words 'I plan to exterminate species X" for you to believe that he plans to do that?

That or something tha CLEARY shows his intent (like an armny, orders to invade, gas chamber).
Fighting for human dominance is neither of those things.

Someone is always dominating. Fact of life.
What's wrong with humans being the ones? You rather Asari dominate? Turians? Batarians?

I don't have a problem with humans dominating the galaxy. But this isn't about humans in general. Would you have a problem with Cerberus dominating the Galaxy?

Cerberuses goal is for humans to dominate. You might read that as "Cerberus", however, that is not a fact (and not even realisticly possile).
And, even if Cerberus would to dominate - are they not humans also? So what? We seen plenty of good people in Cerberus. Can you really tell me that now and forever they will be the worst thing ever?

Hitler also worked wiht inferior races

Hitler also liked dogs.
And had moustache.

To all you dog-loving people with facial hair - you are Hitler and you will be judged accordingly!

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 01 janvier 2012 - 05:54 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chrisimo wrote...
Neither of these were forseeable by the rules you require. They were an option but not a certainity. True, TIM is not as elaborate as Hitler when it comes to his plans reasons for chosing humanity as the chosen species or his plans for dealing with the aliens. Like with Hitler there is simply potential for him to develop in a certain way. In neither case one could be sure. You think that my observations don't warrant my suspicion? That's ok. But it seems to me that you find it highly unlikely that TIM or Cerberus would act like Hitler. Maybe you can tell me why...

If I were to hazzard a guess...
If I started shooting people based on their potential for evil, there'd be no one left alive.

I see potantial in you to be he next Hitler... Should I therefore judge you right now?

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...
Right. Anyway, I think the world would have been better off if the Axis won.

Uh-oh, this kind of humor isn't going well around here. I know you're probably just ****ing with him, but still.

Maybe she isn't..
It's impossible to predict how the world would end up...and there's plenty of nations that came to be from rather...bad circumstances.Maybe the world would have eneded up a better place. We'll never know tough, so it's kinda pointless anyway.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

I never said that amorality is a reason to do something.

No, that was the basis of your argument. That being amoral was, in and of itself, enough. Now you're backtracking.

I said that he has no qualms about morality which means that he doesn't care for morality in any way. He cares about results, about reaching his goals. To achieve his goals he will use any means neccessary, which means that the only factor in the decision of i.e. exterminating the turians would be the usefulness of such action in relation to his goals. If it would be useful (or if he simply wants to do it and the action doesn't hurt him) he would do it, if it would hurt his goals he wouldn't.

What you've just argued is the standing policy for the Citadel Council, and Shepard, who have both had more genocides under their belt than Cerberus. What you have not argued is how genocide is an effective means to TIM's goals, even without considering the costs that come along was it.


Hitler didn't pursue genocide as a means to an end. Genocide was the end.

Excactly. Hitler didn't rise to power by acting in the way that made him horrific. He acted smarter before he came to power. But you have not answered my question. Hitler lost the connection to reality once he gained control over germany. He lost this connection more and more over time. Again, what makes you think that Cerberus/TIm would not act in the way Hitler did after his rise to power?

Why should I? The burden of suspicion is on you to support, not for me to disprove a negative.

Hitler, as he ascended power, was always an advocate eugenics and racial purity and his hatred of Jews: people just didn't take him seriously. The Illusive Man has not advocated eugenics, not advocated or practiced genocidal policies despite the ability to,

Hitler was an exception, not a norm, to authoritarianism. If you want to argue that someone is equivalent to an exceptional case, you must show why. Ability alone is not enough, because most tyrants don't.

Because he is too smart?

Should I assume he's a moron instead?

That's what your argument really amounts to at this point: that, having gotten power (and if he gets power, it won't be through populism), that TIM will turn around and lose it in the ways Hitler did, without any of the reasons for why, and few of the means as to how, Hitler did what Hitler did.

Hitler's reason for mas genocide was ideological racisal superiority. Hitler's reason for war-mongering was a fascist, expansionist ideology. Both of these were foreseeable before his rise, if not recognized by most. Neither of these have been established with regards to TIM.

well said. You gained my approval

Genocide by Hitler were mostly an end, hardly a mean to expand territory and etc.

[Chrisimo]

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]Chrisimo wrote...

[quote]Lotion Soronnar wrote...

[quote]
Look, he doesn't need to say that directly. [/quote]

If you want to claim as a fact that he's like that, then yes, yes he has to.
[/quote]

So someone needs to say the words 'I plan to exterminate species X" for you to believe that he plans to do that?[/quote]

That or something tha CLEARY shows his intent (like an armny, orders to invade, gas chamber).
Fighting for human dominance is neither of those things.
[/quote]

Surely an army, orders to invade and gas chambers are not proof. Those things point to a a lot of things just one of those being extermination of a whole species or race. You want a lot of proof to show someones intention. Why not in this case?

[quote][quote]
Someone is always dominating. Fact of life.
What's wrong with humans being the ones? You rather Asari dominate? Turians? Batarians?
[/quote]

I don't have a problem with humans dominating the galaxy. But this isn't about humans in general. Would you have a problem with Cerberus dominating the Galaxy?[/quote]

Cerberuses goal is for humans to dominate. You might read that as "Cerberus", however, that is not a fact (and not even realisticly possile).
[/quote]

Why should that be impossible?

[quote]
And, even if Cerberus would to dominate - are they not humans also? So what? We seen plenty of good people in Cerberus. Can you really tell me that now and forever they will be the worst thing ever?
[/quote]

The people you refer to don't make policies for Cerberus. They may influnce them as long as TIM needs them, but it mostly depends on the leader. But you have not answered my question.


[quote]
Hitler also liked dogs.
And had moustache.

To all you dog-loving people with facial hair - you are Hitler and you will be judged accordingly!
[/quote]

Even though you probably don't realize it, what you said is exactly true. All dog-loving people and people with facial hair are like Hitler - in the case of liking dogs having facial hair. Every else remains uncertain without further details.

[Chrisimo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...
Neither of these were forseeable by the rules you require. They were an option but not a certainity. True, TIM is not as elaborate as Hitler when it comes to his plans reasons for chosing humanity as the chosen species or his plans for dealing with the aliens. Like with Hitler there is simply potential for him to develop in a certain way. In neither case one could be sure. You think that my observations don't warrant my suspicion? That's ok. But it seems to me that you find it highly unlikely that TIM or Cerberus would act like Hitler. Maybe you can tell me why...

If I were to hazzard a guess...
If I started shooting people based on their potential for evil, there'd be no one left alive.

I see potantial in you to be he next Hitler... Should I therefore judge you right now?

I don't know. If I was the head of a powerful organisation in germany with connections to the highest circles and if I would state that I want Germany to rule the world and had a history of performing or allowing actions that are considered to be extremely immoral then I could very well understand why you would judge me on the basis that I have the potential to be the next Hitler.

[AlexXIV]

Chrisimo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...
Neither of these were forseeable by the rules you require. They were an option but not a certainity. True, TIM is not as elaborate as Hitler when it comes to his plans reasons for chosing humanity as the chosen species or his plans for dealing with the aliens. Like with Hitler there is simply potential for him to develop in a certain way. In neither case one could be sure. You think that my observations don't warrant my suspicion? That's ok. But it seems to me that you find it highly unlikely that TIM or Cerberus would act like Hitler. Maybe you can tell me why...

If I were to hazzard a guess...
If I started shooting people based on their potential for evil, there'd be no one left alive.

I see potantial in you to be he next Hitler... Should I therefore judge you right now?

I don't know. If I was the head of a powerful organisation in germany with connections to the highest circles and if I would state that I want Germany to rule the world and had a history of performing or allowing actions that are considered to be extremely immoral then I could very well understand why you would judge me on the basis that I have the potential to be the next Hitler.

Far as we know TIM doesn't want germany to rule the world so I guess he is out.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chrisimo wrote...

Cerberuses goal is for humans to dominate. You might read that as "Cerberus", however, that is not a fact (and not even realisticly possile).

Why should that be impossible?

Maybe because Cerberus is a tiny organization of a few hunder individuals? Proportinaly to the rest of the ME universe, they are insignificant.
Fearing Cerberus will take over is like fearing Blackwater will take over the entire planet Earth.
There's more planets than Cerberus operatives.

And, even if Cerberus would to dominate - are they not humans also? So what? We seen plenty of good people in Cerberus. Can you really tell me that now and forever they will be the worst thing ever?

The people you refer to don't make policies for Cerberus. They may influnce them as long as TIM needs them, but it mostly depends on the leader.

And we see people leaving if they disagree, so TIM can't do EVERYTHING he wants. Power comes from below. TIM can't do anything that would turn people in Cerberus against him.
And TIM won't live forever.

[Mecha Tengu]

the amount of times Hitler has been mentioned in this thread: 50+
the amount of times Stalin has been mentioned in this thread: 3

you kids suck

[AlexXIV]

Mecha Tengu wrote...

the amount of times Hitler has been mentioned in this thread: 50+
the amount of times Stalin has been mentioned in this thread: 3

you kids suck

Mecha Tengu wrote...
HITLER HITLER HITLER HITLER HITLER

Just sayin'.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well I am not TIM's psychotherapist. How could I establish his state of mind?

By going off his behavior, his rhetoric, and even those points where we do get to see his own mind.

I am just discussing possibilities. I am not saying it is likely so or probably or whatever. Just an option, even if far fetched.

You know what it's called when you raise extreme possibilities without any context or consideration of probabilities?

Making **** up.

Thing is just that Cerberus already developed the Lazarus Project. Which can bring the dead back to life. That's pretty close to godliness if you asked me.

By that standard, CPR is within spitting distance of godhood. You've watered down it to nothingness.

If I had such tech to my disposal I wouldn't just accept death. I mean we all have to die, we know it, accepted it, etc. But we don't live in a world where it is possible to live billion years, and we don't have he tech that would allow it. I don't know about you, but if I knew of a way to escape death then I would probably be intrigued.

Until you realize the drawbacks of immortality.

Though what if I learned that to become immortal I'd have to let 10% of the world population die. Right now I think I wouldn't do it. But had I seen the borders of the world, and knew there is no such thing as a god, or heaven or hell. That morality is an illusion. That those who die don't go to another place or whatever, they simply disappear as if they never lived etc. And that the immortality this tech provides is the only real immortality that exists. I mean that's something to think about.

Perhaps you should think on the point that this has nothing to do with the topic of TIM?

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Chrisimo wrote...

Really? quote me please. [/quote]

[quote=you]
TIM clearly states that he will achieve his goal of human dominance by
all means neccessary. That alone is basis enough because it allows him
to do anything he needs to achieve his goal and his actions show that he
has no qualms about morality. [/quote]An argument which, as already pointed out, confuses what amorality actually entails.

[quote]
What I said was that TIM clearly stated that he wants to achieve his goal of human dominance by any means neccessary. I also said that his past actions show that he has no moral qualms. That means that one should take him seriously when he says he wants to achieve human dominance by any means neccessary. That does not mean that his lack or disregard of morals is the reason he does what he does. It means that his goal of human dominance is the reason he does what he does. [/quote]You can't have it both ways, and claim that TIM must be believed to one extreme while discounting another.

Wars of agression, police states, and  genocide on the scale of the Third Reich is not an intrensic aspect of the pursuit of dominance with or without amorality.

[quote]

The cost depends on the situation and the amount of power one has. If TIM was a Reaper there would be virtually no cost. So what cost exactly are you talking about?[/quote]Of course there would be a cost. Multiple. The cost of becoming a Reaper (which nothing has suggested that TIM considers Human advancement), the cost of using a Reaper in the establishment of a political order, the cost of reaction to genocidal policies.

[quote]
The original plan was actually deportation and not extermination. And genocide was not the end. It was the means to fulfill Hitlers and others desires. [/quote]Besides that extermination isn't the only form of genocide, the genocide of various ethnic and culture groups was part of Hitler's end-goals. If you don't understand that much about the man, why bring him up at all?

Well, that answers obvious actually. It was rhetorical.
[quote]

I am comparing TIM to Hitler in his earlier days. I cannot know what TIM will do therefore I cannot say that he is Hitler until he does what Hitler did. I am not only comparing TIM to Hitler but also to similar people who killed millions in the name of an ideology which defines specific groups of people as inferior and allows them to take away all their rights without restrictions, like Stalin and Mao. I chose Hitler in my introduction because his chosen group of dominance is defined by genetics, not belief or anything else. [/quote]
And yet, the Illusive Man hasn't given any ideology that defines specific groups of people as inferior and allows them to take away all their rights without restriction. Cerberus doesn't even have an ideology of human superiority.

You could have chosen Winston Churchill, Jefferson Davis, or Hideki Tojo, since they all led racist governments based on presumed racial superiority to the detriment of other racial groups, and were involved in wars that got millions of people killed.


[quote]
He may not have openly advocated eugenics but he practiced it by killing a lot of humans so that some genetically enhanced babies may be born.[/quote]Several things wrong with that. First, that's not what eugenics is. Second, biotics aren't genetic. Third, nothing suggests the Illusive Man ever aimed for all Human to reach that.

[quote]
And he doesn't have the ability to advocate or practive genocide if he wants to gain power. Like you said, genocide comes at a cost - the less power you have the greater the cost. [/quote]And yet Cerberus has already been capable of conducting genocides. It's not hard in the Mass Effect universe, and Cerberus has the means via WMDs that could be used without tracking back to them. And yet, Cerberus hasn't.

[quote]Even Hitler didn't openly advocate genocide. [/quote]He did.


[quote]
Like I said, I chose Hitler because of his chosen in-group.
[/quote]You chose Hitler because you wanted shock value over actual comparison.


[quote]
I cannot state the means until he has them. The control over a Reaper or possibly all Reapers would be a means to do a lot of things without the fear of retribution. Enough advancement of humanity in terms of genetics or technology and the ability to manipulate the thoughts of enough humans would be a means. Although more risky (depending on the level of advancement).
[/quote]Of course it's open to retribution and reaction. Not only is it
possible to fight the Reapers, but whatever TIM values can also be
targetted.  Such as, for example, Humanity. And TIM himself.

You're not even picking genocide because you have reason to believe it at this point, since you can't even make up what sort of dominance you fear.


[quote]
Neither of these were forseeable by the rules you require. They were an option but not a certainity. True, TIM is not as elaborate as Hitler when it comes to his plans reasons for chosing humanity as the chosen species or his plans for dealing with the aliens. Like with Hitler there is simply potential for him to develop in a certain way. In neither case one could be sure.[/quote]That's meaningless. Every powerstructure has the potential to go crazy through context and turn to genocide. Even democracies and representative governments.

[quote]
You think that my observations don't warrant my suspicion? That's ok. But it seems to me that you find it highly unlikely that TIM or Cerberus would act like Hitler. Maybe you can tell me why...
[/quote]Your utter lack of ideology or intelligent reason for him to commit genocides of such style.

Without a basis to do such a thing, there's no reason to believe in it.

[Kaiser Shepard]

GodWood wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...
The council follows rules. Americans follow rules.

I'm pissing myself laughing.

Post of the week.

As for all the Hitler analogues and Godwinning going on, Bioware itself has also stooped so low: TIM is pretty much directly parallelled to Hitler in the script, which explains why it seemed they were intent on marketing ME3 as "WWII in space" for a short while.

Modifié par Kaiser Shepard, 01 janvier 2012 - 10:44 .

[Seboist]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...
The council follows rules. Americans follow rules.

I'm pissing myself laughing.

Post of the week.

As for all the Hitler analogues and Godwinning going on, Bioware itself has also stooped so low: TIM is pretty much directly parallelled to Hitler in the script, which explains why it seemed they were intent on marketing ME3 as "WWII in space" for a short while.

Will Udina be Mussolini?

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
By going off his behavior, his rhetoric, and even those points where we do get to see his own mind.

Yeah, no. Unless you are really guillable.

You know what it's called when you raise extreme possibilities without any context or consideration of probabilities?
Making **** up.

You mean like you just did in the above answer?

By that standard, CPR is within spitting distance of godhood. You've watered down it to nothingness.

There is something called cellular degradation or something along that. I am not an expert. And Shep was dead for what? Hours? Days? You want to compare that to CPR? Well, again I refer to tho above point, making things up. Not to mention if you can rebuild people who fell from the sky then you can probably replace or rebuild so many parts of the body that it borders immortality. The only problem would probably be the brain, but since they rebuilt shep's brain as well ... also it's Reaper tech, and Reapers get billions of years old. And not in a natural way.

Until you realize the drawbacks of immortality.

This I have got to hear. For example?

Perhaps you should think on the point that this has nothing to do with the topic of TIM?

Yeah I thought about the point. You're wrong.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 janvier 2012 - 10:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]AlexXIV wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...
By going off his behavior, his rhetoric, and even those points where we do get to see his own mind.
[/quote]
Yeah, no. Unless you are really guillable.[/quote]You... do understand that if you don't consider someone's behavior and words, you have nothing else to consider them by, don't you?

If you don't consider those three elements, you have no basis for being concerned.

[quote]
You know what it's called when you raise extreme possibilities without any context or consideration of probabilities?
Making **** up.
[/quote]
You mean like you just did in the above answer?[/quote]Nope. Watching what people say and do is how you understand them.
[quote]
[quote]
By that standard, CPR is within spitting distance of godhood. You've watered down it to nothingness.
[/quote]
There is something called cellular degradation or something along that. I am not an expert. And Shep was dead for what? Hours? Days? You want to compare that to CPR? Well, again I refer to tho above point, making things up. Not to mention if you can rebuild people who fell from the sky then you can probably replace or rebuild so many parts of the body that it borders immortality. The only problem would probably be the brain, but since they rebuilt shep's brain as well ... also it's Reaper tech, and Reapers get billions of years old. And not in a natural way.
[/quote]There has never been any mention or suggestion of Reaper tech being involved in project lazarus.

Reaper technology is no more unnatural than any other technology used in medicine. Like pills and syringes and all the modern tools of medicine.

People coming back from clinical death in certain cases is known to happen. Rare, but known. That Mass Effect 2 pushes the envelope with handwaved technology doesn't change that it's built on much older practices.


[quote]
This I have got to hear. For example?[/quote]Never dying.

Out living all your mortal friends, and growing so familiar with any fellow immortals that contempt and/or boredom with them grows. The gradual inability to relate to anyone not like yourself, because your experience and perspective is utterly incompatible. The bluring of past and present, as more and more things are simply dejavu rather than new experiences, because novelty is so far dead. The death of idealism, affections, and identity as society changes around you, as the old species dies and a new one, different from you, rises. The growing isolation of being stagnant as time and evolution itself crosses you by.


And that's without the nasty things like suffering a car wreck, plane crash, getting dropped in the depths of the ocean, or intentional torture measures, where you 'live' in perpetual agony of fatal acts without being able to die. Anyone can hurt you for a long, long time, to the point where you lose your sanity.

[The Elder King]

Seboist wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...
The council follows rules. Americans follow rules.

I'm pissing myself laughing.

Post of the week.

As for all the Hitler analogues and Godwinning going on, Bioware itself has also stooped so low: TIM is pretty much directly parallelled to Hitler in the script, which explains why it seemed they were intent on marketing ME3 as "WWII in space" for a short while.

Will Udina be Mussolini?

Udina is too much smart to be compared to Mussolini. Though I could be biased, since I'm Italian (but the fact that he thought that he a strong army is composed by a large number of soldiers with old weapons and withouth modern and many tanks, ships or warplanes doesn't leave much to the imagination).

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
You... do understand that if you don't consider someone's behavior and words, you have nothing else to consider them by, don't you?

If you don't consider those three elements, you have no basis for being concerned.

Look, I am not that stupid. I know that. I am saying you can't judge TIM's mind from the talks with him in ME2. Even an experienced psychologist would have trouble. Even more so since he's ... let's face it, an NPC and not a real person who would have traitorous body language.

Watching what people say and do is how you understand them.

People misunderstand each other all the time. Because it's not as easy as you put it.

There has never been any mention or suggestion of Reaper tech being involved in project lazarus.

Reaper technology is no more unnatural than any other technology used in medicine. Like pills and syringes and all the modern tools of medicine.

People coming back from clinical death in certain cases is known to happen. Rare, but known. That Mass Effect 2 pushes the envelope with handwaved technology doesn't change that it's built on much older practices.

I thought it is obvious that it is Reaper tech. Cerberus has knowledge that other species don't have even though they are at the ME tech level for centuries. Logic dictates that Cerberus' advantage is the tech they found on Sovereign and the derelict Reaper. Unless other species are just too stupid or something. Reaper tech may not be more unnatural just because Reapers use it, but it is more advanced. And the more tech advances, the less natural it is.

Never dying.

Out living all your mortal friends, and growing so familiar with any fellow immortals that contempt and/or boredom with them grows. The gradual inability to relate to anyone not like yourself, because your experience and perspective is utterly incompatible. The bluring of past and present, as more and more things are simply dejavu rather than new experiences, because novelty is so far dead. The death of idealism, affections, and identity as society changes around you, as the old species dies and a new one, different from you, rises. The growing isolation of being stagnant as time and evolution itself crosses you by.


And that's without the nasty things like suffering a car wreck, plane crash, getting dropped in the depths of the ocean, or intentional torture measures, where you 'live' in perpetual agony of fatal acts without being able to die. Anyone can hurt you for a long, long time, to the point where you lose your sanity.

Well if you are alone, then yes. But who's to say only one person can be immortal? It may be boring after a while, then you can still decide to end it. But why bother with it now? Right now it is only a matter of a longer lifespan. I bet alot of old billionaires would give alot of money to live a decade longer or only a couple of years. If you have everything but time, then time becomes extremely precious. Demand and supply.

[Lotion Soronarr]

AlexXIV wrote...

I thought it is obvious that it is Reaper tech. Cerberus has knowledge that other species don't have even though they are at the ME tech level for centuries. Logic dictates that Cerberus' advantage is the tech they found on Sovereign and the derelict Reaper. Unless other species are just too stupid or something. Reaper tech may not be more unnatural just because Reapers use it, but it is more advanced. And the more tech advances, the less natural it is.

:huh::huh:

Wut?

Never dying.

Out living all your mortal friends, and growing so familiar with any fellow immortals that contempt and/or boredom with them grows. The gradual inability to relate to anyone not like yourself, because your experience and perspective is utterly incompatible. The bluring of past and present, as more and more things are simply dejavu rather than new experiences, because novelty is so far dead. The death of idealism, affections, and identity as society changes around you, as the old species dies and a new one, different from you, rises. The growing isolation of being stagnant as time and evolution itself crosses you by.


And that's without the nasty things like suffering a car wreck, plane crash, getting dropped in the depths of the ocean, or intentional torture measures, where you 'live' in perpetual agony of fatal acts without being able to die. Anyone can hurt you for a long, long time, to the point where you lose your sanity.

Well if you are alone, then yes. But who's to say only one person can be immortal? It may be boring after a while, then you can still decide to end it. But why bother with it now? Right now it is only a matter of a longer lifespan. I bet alot of old billionaires would give alot of money to live a decade longer or only a couple of years. If you have everything but time, then time becomes extremely precious. Demand and supply.

Reading comprehension. You fail at it.

And the simplest reason is that a human mind/psyche is simply not mean for immortality.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I thought it is obvious that it is Reaper tech. Cerberus has knowledge that other species don't have even though they are at the ME tech level for centuries. Logic dictates that Cerberus' advantage is the tech they found on Sovereign and the derelict Reaper. Unless other species are just too stupid or something. Reaper tech may not be more unnatural just because Reapers use it, but it is more advanced. And the more tech advances, the less natural it is.

:huh::huh:

Wut?

Thought this would get me into trouble. Bad wording. What I mean is that the more progress with tech, the more tech is used. As in opposite to nature. For example cyber implants (in Sci Fi anyway). Well we have something like that irl too. Tech replacing nature.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

And the simplest reason is that a human mind/psyche is simply not mean for immortality.

Is that so? I'd like to know why. Aside from what Dean said to which I answered that having the option to live forever doesn't mean that you HAVE to. And all about extending life time? Like for example Miranda has been 'upgraded', probably Shepard too? I mean it is happening already, even in a small scale. Don't want to see that or what?

My point was originally what could make a smart person like TIM do something ... unethical ... which does not serve humankind or the galaxy directly. Which is something as basic as not wanting to die, so soon. Or, since he chose a bit of a risky lifestyle, maybe wanting to come back should something bad happen. As for example someone putting a bullet in his head.

Also I wasn't talking about immortality in being unkillable or something. Just that you prevent natural death, at least for a while, so aging is slowed or put on a hold for a while.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 02 janvier 2012 - 08:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

I can see people wanthing that, but I don't see TIM as wanting it any more than anyone else.

[AlexXIV]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

I can see people wanthing that, but I don't see TIM as wanting it any more than anyone else.

No he is not wanting it more than others, me or you probably. But he can probably get it.