325 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Sisterofshane wrote...
I wasn't really talking about a majority, but a large group of people here that are sympathetic with TIM.

We are not a large group and from what I've seen people don't support him out of sympathy.

And I know I've said this before, TIM automatically gets responsibility for what his organization does, effectively because that is the way he chooses to run it. He chooses to remain ignorant because it gives him a viable cop-out when it "hits the fan".

But TIM doesn't always know. Teltin (something he's often blamed for) is one such incident he didn't know was going on and the game makes it explicitly obvious he didn't. When he did found out he shut it down and yet people still blame 'him' for it. One can criticize him for having a part in it to an extent if they want but he is not the true monster behind Teltin.

As far as being an ally, I think that was the whole point of ME2. You are working with Cerberus because no one else offers you the opportunity. That being said, the second TIM's plan doesn't hash with mine (or rather, Sheps), or when he starts actively trying to stop me, they stop being allies. And given TIM's character (you know, ruthless, cunning, machiavellian), I've always expected this to happen, from moment one.

Why? Why would TIM throw away a valuable resource (Shepard) that he's invested so much into. Doing that is not cunning or machiavellian, it's ****ing stupid and poor writing.

[Dean_the_Young]

If they wanted Cerberus to be unreliably deceitful in the pursuit of its own vision, that doesn't even really necessitate Cerberus siding with the Reapers. Being a nakedly opportunistic force during the galactic apocalypse, but providing just enough help (war assets/secret technology/etc.) to justify keeping them around, would cover that. Cerberus can simultaneously help Shepard and be conniving at the same time. And this can even be done without forcing alliances or hostility.

Let's take a hypothetical scenario: Cerberus steals some plot-device artifact that Shepard needs to save the galaxy. Call it a super-important Prothean beacon. To complete the wonder project/operation to beat the Reapers, Shepard needs that artifact.

The Illusive Man calls Shepard up, willing to negotiate. TIM says 'I'll give you this device, and send my Cerberus forces to help retake Earth... if you give me something in exchange.' Something the Council would normally never entertain, like, oh, TIM getting Spectre status.

If TIM has Spectre status, than through him Cerberus becomes legal, and utterly uncountable as it operates openly. Even if it's just for the duration of the War, Cerberus will be the worst abuser of the Spectre status in the mean time. Political opponents killed, human interests elevated, the works. The worst of the Spectre system... in exchange for the artifact and the Cerberus aid. If you kept the Collector Base, that aid could be even more significant in helping win the liberation of Earth. Cerberus can't be trusted to be a good public actor, but is not contradicting their own past.

If you hate TIM with a passion, however, you can refuse. Shepard tries to take the artifact by force, or bets that the Illusive Man will hand it over anyway if called on this bluff about risking the galaxy for a temporary advantage. Maybe you get a modified mission to retake the artifact, or maybe the Illusive Man folds and hands over the artifact for mutual survival. You don't get Cerberus war assets for the Earth liberation, and Cerberus plays villainous opportunist all the same... but without the advantages of Spectre freedom.


That's 'questionable ally' part one. Part two could be in the endgame: after the battle to liberate Earth, Cerberus could launch a betrayal in order to seize a total victory of some sort. Some villainous scheme for Human dominance they've wanted all this time, whether you trusted them or not.

If you didn't trust Cerberus, then their intervention is showing up after the fight seems won, attacking the weakened victors. Cerberus betrays you, even if you weren't allied with them. If you did ally with Cerberus, then Cerberus troops in your army turn on your other allies, fighting from within.

Regardless, at the cusp of victory Cerberus validates the 'you can trust them' fears with an eleventh hour betrayal in pursuit of... whatever goal it is.

Players who never trusted at all and didn't want to ally with them are validated.
Players who thought the benefits (War Assets to liberate Earth) outweighed the risk are ALSO validated.

Cerberus remains a reliably human-first group and force, and questionably reliable ally against the Reapers, without becoming indoctrination fodder.

[GodWood]

Spectre TIM, that's bloody brilliant.

[Dave of Canada]

I'd change it so the entire game has Cerberus helping Shepard (if he accepts their help) on the Deus Ex (which I still hate but meh, mentioning it from the current script), introducing Collector Base technology on it if you've spared it. In the mean time, aliens show great distrust working with them (humans view him as a robin hood-esque hero after the events of the Collectors are made more public by their propaganda) and it provides conflict among your allies (making them harder to gain / have around and they take precautions against you).

Instead of having Hackett being the guy who tells you about the results of missions, how allies are helping you, ect, it'd be TIM who does it. He'd have different responses to the objectives being completed, offering help on certain things (For example, Project Overlord helping you during the Quarian mission) that Hackett doesn't provide (but Hackett would have his own help which Cerberus can't provide).

At the end of the game, you'd learn they've rigged the Deus Ex that it only activates when The Illusive Man wants it to and they've killed all the other engineers who've worked on it. He'll use it against the Reapers but he'll keep it for his agenda afterward. EDIT: Maybe introducing Dean's "Spectre" thing here, making Cerberus fully legal would be awesome.

Then before the ending scenarios present themselves, something would involve him and how to handle it in some fashion (because frankly, most people absolutely loathe the endings, changing from how it is now wouldn't make anybody sad).

Those who told them to blow off would deal with Cerberus trying to stop the Reapers in their own way, still no stupid indoctrination. Kai Leng doing what Shepard would be doing but for TIM.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 décembre 2011 - 07:34 .

[karatemanchan37]

@ Dean_the_Young

Amazing Theory, if I do say so myself.

But if Shepard does have some (and maybe all) control of the galaxy's best forces, what's not to say that all of them just storm the base?

It's justified if they are all indoctrinated, so they are basically attacking the Reaper's stronghold in forces.

[Labrev]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

When I first started playing Renegade I thought it was a fail-path, but soon saw it's not. If anything, it's the FAR more safe of the two. And frankly, after having played, I have not seen the BS myth that Paragonism = win and Renegade = lose. What is letting a terrorist like Balak and a merc leader like Vido walk "alive and at large" if not a failure?

I take it you haven't read the script, dear. Those decisions are far from failures in ME3.

What I read of Balak was this: Shepard. You should have killed me on that asteroid over Terra Nova. I've ben waiting for this. Everything that has happened to my people is your fault. (...) I can't save my people, but I can end you. Vegence. The Bahak system... Aaah! ... that does not exactly read as a "victory" to me in any sense of the word (then again, Kaiser & Co has run amok with other false assumptions from the script, so this is nothing new). Aside from that, the mere fact that he's "alive and well" in ME2 constitues failure no matter how you spin it. You think a player who killed him would take pride in that having killed him, but nope. Paragons must BLEEEED before the hardline BSN faction can feel justified.

As for Vido, again, another failure for the paragon path. They let Vido get away in the name of saving (a whopping four) refinery workers, only for Zaeed to do the same thing again while his squad (of likely three or four) all died because the paragon path didn't get him the first time or get the awesome scene in ME2 of Zaeed killing Vido. I did both (kill Balak and Vido, on my two serious careers) and I chalk up both of them as a win, in light of the leaks.


And that's the other thing, if you think it's stupid, why are you even upset about it? One would think you'd be happy that the stupid is not in your game. But, negative nanices just need another bone to pick and feel victimized by big bad Bioware.


*edit* - spoiler tags crapped on me.

Modifié par Hah Yes Reapers, 31 décembre 2011 - 10:01 .

[Dean_the_Young]

karatemanchan37 wrote...

@ Dean_the_Young

Amazing Theory, if I do say so myself.

Alas, it's not a theory. The actual handling of Cerberus in the ME2 spoilers is quite different.

But if Shepard does have some (and maybe all) control of the galaxy's best forces, what's not to say that all of them just storm the base?

What base? You need to provide context.

In the case of the Artifact, the thing that might prevent a raid is the fact that it's being held hostage, and could be destroyed. Hence a non-violent solution, either by accepting TIM's terms (empowering Cerberus as the cost for cooperation), or calling TIM's bluff (betting that he'll hand over the artifact peacefully, rather than risk Human extinction).

It's justified if they are all indoctrinated, so they are basically attacking the Reaper's stronghold in forces.

We're presenting a scenario in which the 'Cerberus can't be trusted' accussation can be flung without a plot-role reversal on the part of Cerberus.

'Trust' is a sketchy, flexible concept, but there are things you can't trust Cerberus on and there are things you can. By all prior Mass Effect media, Cerberus's opposition to the Reapers was something you could rely upon whether you trusted their conduct or not.

[Dean_the_Young]

Hey, look, Hah Yes Reapers is misrepresenting and skewing facts from the game and spoilers. Imagine that.

[Nightwriter]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If they wanted Cerberus to be unreliably deceitful in the pursuit of its own vision, that doesn't even really necessitate Cerberus siding with the Reapers. Being a nakedly opportunistic force during the galactic apocalypse, but providing just enough help (war assets/secret technology/etc.) to justify keeping them around, would cover that. Cerberus can simultaneously help Shepard and be conniving at the same time. And this can even be done without forcing alliances or hostility.

Let's take a hypothetical scenario: Cerberus steals some plot-device artifact that Shepard needs to save the galaxy. Call it a super-important Prothean beacon. To complete the wonder project/operation to beat the Reapers, Shepard needs that artifact.

The Illusive Man calls Shepard up, willing to negotiate. TIM says 'I'll give you this device, and send my Cerberus forces to help retake Earth... if you give me something in exchange.' Something the Council would normally never entertain, like, oh, TIM getting Spectre status.

If TIM has Spectre status, than through him Cerberus becomes legal, and utterly uncountable as it operates openly. Even if it's just for the duration of the War, Cerberus will be the worst abuser of the Spectre status in the mean time. Political opponents killed, human interests elevated, the works. The worst of the Spectre system... in exchange for the artifact and the Cerberus aid. If you kept the Collector Base, that aid could be even more significant in helping win the liberation of Earth. Cerberus can't be trusted to be a good public actor, but is not contradicting their own past.

If you hate TIM with a passion, however, you can refuse. Shepard tries to take the artifact by force, or bets that the Illusive Man will hand it over anyway if called on this bluff about risking the galaxy for a temporary advantage. Maybe you get a modified mission to retake the artifact, or maybe the Illusive Man folds and hands over the artifact for mutual survival. You don't get Cerberus war assets for the Earth liberation, and Cerberus plays villainous opportunist all the same... but without the advantages of Spectre freedom.


That's 'questionable ally' part one. Part two could be in the endgame: after the battle to liberate Earth, Cerberus could launch a betrayal in order to seize a total victory of some sort. Some villainous scheme for Human dominance they've wanted all this time, whether you trusted them or not.

If you didn't trust Cerberus, then their intervention is showing up after the fight seems won, attacking the weakened victors. Cerberus betrays you, even if you weren't allied with them. If you did ally with Cerberus, then Cerberus troops in your army turn on your other allies, fighting from within.

Regardless, at the cusp of victory Cerberus validates the 'you can trust them' fears with an eleventh hour betrayal in pursuit of... whatever goal it is.

Players who never trusted at all and didn't want to ally with them are validated.
Players who thought the benefits (War Assets to liberate Earth) outweighed the risk are ALSO validated.

Cerberus remains a reliably human-first group and force, and questionably reliable ally against the Reapers, without becoming indoctrination fodder.

I love it.

But how could Shepard grant TIM Spectre status? 

[Dave of Canada]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

And that's the other thing, if you think it's stupid, why are you even upset about it?

Because it's poor writing, dear. You don't introduce random consequences without some previous hint at it existing, something which introduces why the character does what he/she does.

*ME3 spoilers ahead*

Look at Balak, how the hell does one figure he'd join and be the most competent surviving military officer in the entire Batarian army and he'd be able to mobilize the survivors? He was a terrorist who got his entire team nearly killed and tried to destroy Terra Nova and absolutely loathes humanity, there's no reason one would suspect this to occur.

Had they introduced in ME1's BDTS that he was an extremist renegade Batarian officer who hits human colonies and the like during his spare time, it would make far more sense for him to be in his role in ME3. You're taking the risk of him hitting other colonies, though you understand he's still important in the hierarchy in the Batarian army.

Though judging by ME1's scenario, all you'd expect from him is more terrorism. Writing certainly hints that he'd do this elsewhere in ME1, then why do we hear nothing of it in ME2? Why does he suddenly appear and help the player out in ME3, while those who've played the same content but decided it was too risky find a more incompetent officer? Why does one get punished for a decision which had nothing to do with Batarian military?

Compare this to Harrowmont and Bhelen from Dragon Age: Origins, most of the people on these forums blindly went with Harrowmont because he was the "good guy" of the two, yet they were surprised when they found out he was incompetent. Surprised, the incompetent and easily manipulated fool who's shown signs of supporting isolation... isolates himself and is incompetent.

Though people instinctively metagame the decision after that playthrough, know why? The "feel good" feeling, they don't care that they screwed up. They pick the option which makes them win, it just happens that the ME series seems to do this about every damn paragon decision whether or not it makes sense.

Which is why I'm arguing it being poor writing, Harrowmont / Bhelen was better written than all of this.

[nitefyre410]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
*snip*

 


That is brilliant and allows at a later for players like myself who knew TIM  was sketchy the option of the having to hunt him down after words.

[HiroVoid]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Though people instinctively metagame the decision after that playthrough, know why? The "feel good" feeling, they don't care that they screwed up. They pick the option which makes them win, it just happens that the ME series seems to do this about every damn paragon decision whether or not it makes sense.

I think this personally just comes down to the import system.  Bioware doesn't want people to feel like importing could actually cause worse paths, so instead, they make every paragon decision the right path(or if it isn't, it doesn't matter anyway.), and the renegade patht the default one which while no improvements are gained is still no worse than just starting up the new game.

[JamieCOTC]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

And that's the other thing, if you think it's stupid, why are you even upset about it?

Because it's poor writing, dear. You don't introduce random consequences without some previous hint at it existing, something which introduces why the character does what he/she does.

You do when you main objective is new players. "Who cares about the last two games!  It's all out galactic war!  Button = Awesome!"

[Dave of Canada]

HiroVoid wrote...

I think this personally just comes down to the import system.  Bioware doesn't want people to feel like importing could actually cause worse paths, so instead, they make every paragon decision the right path(or if it isn't, it doesn't matter anyway.), and the renegade patht the default one which while no improvements are gained is still no worse than just starting up the new game.

They've actually created some variants which exist only if you haven't played the content / started a new game which results in more benefits than doing the Renegade decision. For example, the graybox is still used in ME3 from Kasumi's mission if you didn't do it and you gain all the benefits from doing so.

Destroying it only leads to you being punished for not having it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 décembre 2011 - 08:02 .

[Someone With Mass]

Considering the amount of books, comics and even DLCs Cerberus have taken up with their useless existence, they'll get exactly what they deserve in ME3. Complete annihilation. The sooner they die out, the better.

Make way for things that matters instead of TIM's hunger for power.

[Dean_the_Young]

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If they wanted Cerberus to be unreliably deceitful in the pursuit of its own vision, that doesn't even really necessitate Cerberus siding with the Reapers. Being a nakedly opportunistic force during the galactic apocalypse, but providing just enough help (war assets/secret technology/etc.) to justify keeping them around, would cover that. Cerberus can simultaneously help Shepard and be conniving at the same time. And this can even be done without forcing alliances or hostility.

Let's take a hypothetical scenario: Cerberus steals some plot-device artifact that Shepard needs to save the galaxy. Call it a super-important Prothean beacon. To complete the wonder project/operation to beat the Reapers, Shepard needs that artifact.

The Illusive Man calls Shepard up, willing to negotiate. TIM says 'I'll give you this device, and send my Cerberus forces to help retake Earth... if you give me something in exchange.' Something the Council would normally never entertain, like, oh, TIM getting Spectre status.

If TIM has Spectre status, than through him Cerberus becomes legal, and utterly uncountable as it operates openly. Even if it's just for the duration of the War, Cerberus will be the worst abuser of the Spectre status in the mean time. Political opponents killed, human interests elevated, the works. The worst of the Spectre system... in exchange for the artifact and the Cerberus aid. If you kept the Collector Base, that aid could be even more significant in helping win the liberation of Earth. Cerberus can't be trusted to be a good public actor, but is not contradicting their own past.

If you hate TIM with a passion, however, you can refuse. Shepard tries to take the artifact by force, or bets that the Illusive Man will hand it over anyway if called on this bluff about risking the galaxy for a temporary advantage. Maybe you get a modified mission to retake the artifact, or maybe the Illusive Man folds and hands over the artifact for mutual survival. You don't get Cerberus war assets for the Earth liberation, and Cerberus plays villainous opportunist all the same... but without the advantages of Spectre freedom.


That's 'questionable ally' part one. Part two could be in the endgame: after the battle to liberate Earth, Cerberus could launch a betrayal in order to seize a total victory of some sort. Some villainous scheme for Human dominance they've wanted all this time, whether you trusted them or not.

If you didn't trust Cerberus, then their intervention is showing up after the fight seems won, attacking the weakened victors. Cerberus betrays you, even if you weren't allied with them. If you did ally with Cerberus, then Cerberus troops in your army turn on your other allies, fighting from within.

Regardless, at the cusp of victory Cerberus validates the 'you can trust them' fears with an eleventh hour betrayal in pursuit of... whatever goal it is.

Players who never trusted at all and didn't want to ally with them are validated.
Players who thought the benefits (War Assets to liberate Earth) outweighed the risk are ALSO validated.

Cerberus remains a reliably human-first group and force, and questionably reliable ally against the Reapers, without becoming indoctrination fodder.

I love it.

But how could Shepard grant TIM Spectre status? 

By convincing the Council. Frame it in two (or three) conversations: TIM offers, Shepard goes to the Citadel when convenient and talks to Council, Shepard calls TIM back.

Naturally, the Council should be against it. 'Cerberus can't be trusted,' and all that. If Shepard is... I won't assign it to Paragon, but if Shepard is against the deal Shepard agrees. Particularly since the Spectre abuses are too obvious to not foresee.

If Shepard is for the deal, then Shepard can pull out the 'You're still doubting me, even after you ignorred me about Saren/the Collectors/the Reapers?" Add that with a bit of 'You should trust me for once,' and the Council concedes...

And totally gets to go 'We told you so' after TIM's betrayal at the end.


After talking with the Council, Shepard goes back and gives TIM a call. If you made the deal, TIM sends over the artifact right away. If you refuse, then Shepard gets to verbally browbeat TIM into handing it over. Renegade takes a Renegade tone, Paragon gets a firm 'I'm calling your bluff' Paragon tone.

[Wolverfrog]

Illusive Man has always been a pragmatist; he does the wrong things for the right reasons. Those things might have been to Shepard's benefit in ME2, but evidently not in ME3.

[Dean_the_Young]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Considering the amount of books, comics and even DLCs Cerberus have taken up with their useless existence, they'll get exactly what they deserve in ME3. Complete annihilation. The sooner they die out, the better.

Make way for things that matters instead of TIM's hunger for power.

But... Cerberus has only had one DLC. Overlord.

For the expanded universe I'd agree that they're overused, but Bioware finds them to useful. And they've already gained more than enough to justify any later ressurection.

TIM dies in ME3? Cerberus remnants can Lazarus him. Cerberus destroyed as a force? Lone Cerberus science project can build new Cerberus army with Reaper tech. Cerberus utterly discredited? Neo-Cerberus.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Maybe Spectre status is a little too much. TIM could just ask the Council to suspend any warrants it has against Cerberus, granting the organization legitimacy.

Too benevolent and restrained on Cerberus's part. Opportunism in the face of crisis should definetly be their game.

Spectre status just lets them do it more openly, and without meaningful objection.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Doesn't Wilson/Miranda say the Lazarus Project was a once-in-a-lifetime kind of thing, Dean (or something to that effect)? I doubt Cerberus would be able to pull off yet another Lazarus.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
But... Cerberus has only had one DLC. Overlord. 

For the expanded universe I'd agree that they're overused, but Bioware finds them to useful. And they've already gained more than enough to justify any later ressurection.

TIM dies in ME3? Cerberus remnants can Lazarus him. Cerberus destroyed as a force? Lone Cerberus science project can build new Cerberus army with Reaper tech. Cerberus utterly discredited? Neo-Cerberus.

Yep, it's Star Wars Expanded Universe cranked up to eleven and the trilogy isn't even over yet.

[Dave of Canada]

Reaper tech will be everywhere post ME3, assuming scientists and engineers are working around the clock it's applications could be used to bring back The Illusive Man. Superior tech certainly would make it a lot easier than using whatever the Alliance has now.

Mass Effect: Wolfenstein is the sequel to ME3 to expand further the Space **** name they've given them in ME3.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 31 décembre 2011 - 08:42 .