Aller au contenu

Photo

Is TIM really a bad guy or is Cerberus attacking and TIM is "faking" the total indoctrination? (Speculation)


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
325 réponses à ce sujet

#126
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Doesn't Wilson/Miranda say the Lazarus Project was a once-in-a-lifetime kind of thing, Dean (or something to that effect)? I doubt Cerberus would be able to pull off yet another Lazarus.

Not really. Infact, there's some who belief the Lazarus has already been redone in CDN. There's a plotline in which an Earth-nation politician (the North American president?) died, his death was hidden via using a VI, and then a year later he was brought back to life by 'modern medicine.' The Cerberus tie isn't established, but it isn't impossible.

Lazarus was expensive, but the research/innovation costs have already been paid and you can always say 'Cerberus front companies still undiscovered.' The hardest part would be justifying Cerberus remnants recovering the Illusive Man's body, if/when he dies. Which is to say, pathetically easy to justify if the game doesn't utterly destroy it.

Edit: it was the "Ford v. Huerta" plotline, from March/April 2010.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 31 décembre 2011 - 09:12 .


#127
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

Someone With Mass wrote...

Yep, it's Star Wars Expanded Universe cranked up to eleven and the trilogy isn't even over yet.

Star Wars goes both much better and much worse than the Mass Effect novels, but then it's had dozens of writers and decades of opportunity to pump out hundreds of stories. There aren't even ten mass effect books.

#128
Fiery Phoenix

Fiery Phoenix
  • Members
  • 18 968 messages
That's certainly interesting, Dean. Didn't know about it.

#129
Lotion Soronarr

Lotion Soronarr
  • Members
  • 14 481 messages

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's 'questionable ally' part one. Part two could be in the endgame: after the battle to liberate Earth, Cerberus could launch a betrayal in order to seize a total victory of some sort. Some villainous scheme for Human dominance they've wanted all this time, whether you trusted them or not.

If you didn't trust Cerberus, then their intervention is showing up after the fight seems won, attacking the weakened victors. Cerberus betrays you, even if you weren't allied with them. If you did ally with Cerberus, then Cerberus troops in your army turn on your other allies, fighting from within.

Regardless, at the cusp of victory Cerberus validates the 'you can trust them' fears with an eleventh hour betrayal in pursuit of... whatever goal it is.

Players who never trusted at all and didn't want to ally with them are validated.
Players who thought the benefits (War Assets to liberate Earth) outweighed the risk are ALSO validated.

Cerberus remains a reliably human-first group and force, and questionably reliable ally against the Reapers, without becoming indoctrination fodder.

I love it.


I don't. Why would TIM turn on Sheppard, if Shep supported him all the time?

#130
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's 'questionable ally' part one. Part two could be in the endgame: after the battle to liberate Earth, Cerberus could launch a betrayal in order to seize a total victory of some sort. Some villainous scheme for Human dominance they've wanted all this time, whether you trusted them or not.

If you didn't trust Cerberus, then their intervention is showing up after the fight seems won, attacking the weakened victors. Cerberus betrays you, even if you weren't allied with them. If you did ally with Cerberus, then Cerberus troops in your army turn on your other allies, fighting from within.

Regardless, at the cusp of victory Cerberus validates the 'you can trust them' fears with an eleventh hour betrayal in pursuit of... whatever goal it is.

Players who never trusted at all and didn't want to ally with them are validated.
Players who thought the benefits (War Assets to liberate Earth) outweighed the risk are ALSO validated.

Cerberus remains a reliably human-first group and force, and questionably reliable ally against the Reapers, without becoming indoctrination fodder.

I love it.


I don't. Why would TIM turn on Sheppard, if Shep supported him all the time?

To try and claim a prize that Shepard might/would try to keep Cerberus from.

Something that Shepard, who has always had characteristics beyond control of the player, might have already made clear would not simply be allowed to anyone.

It's a player-Shepard divide, which has always been a part of the series. That you might be unwaveringly supportive of TIM to the best of your ability doesn't mean Shepard is... or that TIM expects Shepard to.

#131
Guest_BNPunish_*

Guest_BNPunish_*
  • Guests
It depends on what you want to see in ME3. not saying more SPOILERS

#132
nitefyre410

nitefyre410
  • Members
  • 8 944 messages

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's 'questionable ally' part one. Part two could be in the endgame: after the battle to liberate Earth, Cerberus could launch a betrayal in order to seize a total victory of some sort. Some villainous scheme for Human dominance they've wanted all this time, whether you trusted them or not.

If you didn't trust Cerberus, then their intervention is showing up after the fight seems won, attacking the weakened victors. Cerberus betrays you, even if you weren't allied with them. If you did ally with Cerberus, then Cerberus troops in your army turn on your other allies, fighting from within.

Regardless, at the cusp of victory Cerberus validates the 'you can trust them' fears with an eleventh hour betrayal in pursuit of... whatever goal it is.

Players who never trusted at all and didn't want to ally with them are validated.
Players who thought the benefits (War Assets to liberate Earth) outweighed the risk are ALSO validated.

Cerberus remains a reliably human-first group and force, and questionably reliable ally against the Reapers, without becoming indoctrination fodder.

I love it.


I don't. Why would TIM turn on Sheppard, if Shep supported him all the time?

 

because TIM  was using  Shepard  as means to end. TIM had something Shepard wanted... TIM  got something in return... now that Shepard served his purpose he of no use.   Loyality from someone like  TIM is non existence and extremely rare.

#133
Dave of Canada

Dave of Canada
  • Members
  • 17 484 messages
Except TIM doesn't work that way, he'd see Shepard as a resource and he wouldn't throw him away unless he gained something from it. He considers working with Shepard again in Retribution and doesn't want to eliminate Anderson out of revenge simply because Anderson is an asset.

#134
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

Except TIM doesn't work that way, he'd see Shepard as a resource and he wouldn't throw him away unless he gained something from it. He considers working with Shepard again in Retribution and doesn't want to eliminate Anderson out of revenge simply because Anderson is an asset.

Which isn't to say TIM wouldn't cross Shepard, but rather that he won't do it without reason.

#135
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

Guest_Saphra Deden_*
  • Guests

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Maybe Spectre status is a little too much. TIM could just ask the Council to suspend any warrants it has against Cerberus, granting the organization legitimacy.

Too benevolent and restrained on Cerberus's part. Opportunism in the face of crisis should definetly be their game.

Spectre status just lets them do it more openly, and without meaningful objection.


Sure, but if he's going to go that far then why doesn't TIM just ask that he be made head of the Alliance? Or that Cerberus is formally recognized as the true representative of humanity? It'd be more realistic to have a Spectre or Spectres in his pocket than to be one himself.

#136
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

Guest_Saphra Deden_*
  • Guests

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
That's 'questionable ally' part one. Part two could be in the endgame: after the battle to liberate Earth, Cerberus could launch a betrayal in order to seize a total victory of some sort. Some villainous scheme for Human dominance they've wanted all this time, whether you trusted them or not.

If you didn't trust Cerberus, then their intervention is showing up after the fight seems won, attacking the weakened victors. Cerberus betrays you, even if you weren't allied with them. If you did ally with Cerberus, then Cerberus troops in your army turn on your other allies, fighting from within.

Regardless, at the cusp of victory Cerberus validates the 'you can trust them' fears with an eleventh hour betrayal in pursuit of... whatever goal it is.

Players who never trusted at all and didn't want to ally with them are validated.
Players who thought the benefits (War Assets to liberate Earth) outweighed the risk are ALSO validated.

Cerberus remains a reliably human-first group and force, and questionably reliable ally against the Reapers, without becoming indoctrination fodder.

I love it.


I don't. Why would TIM turn on Sheppard, if Shep supported him all the time?

To try and claim a prize that Shepard might/would try to keep Cerberus from.


If this happens at the very end of the game there is no reason Shepard shouldn't be able to agree to do things TIM's way. It would be especially fun if doing so meant you had to fight most of your own squadmates.

#137
BatmanPWNS

BatmanPWNS
  • Members
  • 6 392 messages
Just do what TIM says just for the sake of seeing how things change in ME3.

#138
Labrev

Labrev
  • Members
  • 2 237 messages

Dave of Canada wrote...

Because it's poor writing, dear. You don't introduce random consequences without some previous hint at it existing, something which introduces why the character does what he/she does.


If writing needs to be fixed, that's another issue altogether.

Let's say Balak were to feed the poor in ME3, does a Shepard who took the renegade path on that mission think like: "Darn it! In some alternate universe which I don't exist in, Balak turned his life around! I made the wrong decsion..." - ?

Bad writing? Sure. Reason to be upset? Not unless it actually somehow negatively affects your own game without a good reason (which it doesn't on either count). I'd put a pretty strong wager on Balak as live or dead not being the difference maker between a successful and unsuccessful outcome in the game.

They don't craft these outcomes for pissing contests on BSN so fans can say "I told you so!" because one decision was "right" and one was "wrong." The decisions are moral grey-areas where both moralities and their decisions are justified by the players themselves (for their own reasons for choosing it). Players that choose either decisions get their own consequences to live with. As it should be.

Funny how we also don't hear about things like the heretic geth outcome from the usual suspects around here. *spoiler* - rewriting results in more geth allying with the Reapers. *spoiler* Oh, those dern paragons at Bioware!


Look at Balak, how the hell does one figure he'd join and be the most competent surviving military officer in the entire Batarian army and he'd be able to mobilize the survivors? He was a terrorist who got his entire team nearly killed and tried to destroy Terra Nova and absolutely loathes humanity, there's no reason one would suspect this to occur.

Had they introduced in ME1's BDTS that he was an extremist renegade Batarian officer who hits human colonies and the like during his spare time, it would make far more sense for him to be in his role in ME3. You're taking the risk of him hitting other colonies, though you understand he's still important in the hierarchy in the Batarian army.


Probably the same way the series' main character finds himself a home with the Alliance again despite having worked for a group recognized as terrorist, and his plan to wipe out an entire colony actually worked. Balak, like Shepard, probably has his uses for their military, especially seeing as batarian space will get hit hardest first by the Reapers. I wouldn't exactly underestimate what he's capable of either, seeing as he is resourceful enough to get a team of thugs that are regularly slavers to coordinate a large-scale terrorist attack, hurling an asteroid into Terra Nova.

That his plan was thwarted by Shepard is more reason he'd be sympathized with. At this point, Shepard is probably batarian public-enemy #1. He could very easily appeal to the hatred that many batarians harbor against humanity and Shepard alike to mobilize followers to his cause.


Now I still fail to see where this constitues a victory for the paragon path. A very literal "you should have killed me when you had a chance" scenario typically points to failure.


Though judging by ME1's scenario, all you'd expect from him is more terrorism. Writing certainly hints that he'd do this elsewhere in ME1, then why do we hear nothing of it in ME2? Why does he suddenly appear and help the player out in ME3, while those who've played the same content but decided it was too risky find a more incompetent officer? Why does one get punished for a decision which had nothing to do with Batarian military?


In ME2 you hear that Balak is "alive and at large" if he was spared. Not sure about you but personally, I would consider a terrorist being alive and at large a decidedly negative outcome. Is there no point in hunting Osama bin Laden if he's not actively carrying out attacks?

I'm still not clear where we learned of his supposed help to the player. It reads more like he's about to attack him or something.


Though people instinctively metagame the decision after that playthrough, know why? The "feel good" feeling, they don't care that they screwed up. They pick the option which makes them win, it just happens that the ME series seems to do this about every damn paragon decision whether or not it makes sense.


And metagaming is exactly the issue I'm having here - using out-of-universe consequences to validate/invalidate your own ones. You'll excuse me for disbelieving the notion that a terrorist walking free is "feel good" for the player and a win. Or, for that matter, the majority of paragon decisions - for which the consequences have not even manifested - are as well (and to which many a leak points to failure).


By the way, I "felt good" putting a bullet in Balak's head. What about you?

#139
Labrev

Labrev
  • Members
  • 2 237 messages

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hey, look, Hah Yes Reapers is misrepresenting and skewing facts from the game and spoilers. Imagine that.


Hey, look, it's Dean's "baffle 'em with bullschit" routine to sound smart whilst not actually saying anything at all.

Imagine that.

#140
Guest_Saphra Deden_*

Guest_Saphra Deden_*
  • Guests

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Let's say Balak were to feed the poor in ME3, does a Shepard who took the renegade path on that mission think like: "Darn it! In some alternate universe which I don't exist in, Balak turned his life around! I made the wrong decsion..." - ?


I think his reaction would be the same as the player's, "WTF?"

Seriously, what ME3 does with Balak is actually kind of comedic, in a way. It's the best example yet of the universe bending and twisting in any way it has to in order to make the Paragon path the right path.

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hey, look, Hah Yes Reapers is misrepresenting and skewing facts from the game and spoilers. Imagine that.


Hey, look, it's Dean's "baffle 'em with bullschit" routine to sound smart whilst not actually saying anything at all.

Imagine that.


I almost feel sorry for you for being baffled by what Dean said.

Modifié par Saphra Deden, 01 janvier 2012 - 12:26 .


#141
Nightwriter

Nightwriter
  • Members
  • 9 800 messages

Saphra Dedren wrote...

If this happens at the very end of the game there is no reason Shepard shouldn't be able to agree to do things TIM's way.

This seems as good a solution as any. TIM only turns on you if you fail to support his world galaxy domination.

#142
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hey, look, Hah Yes Reapers is misrepresenting and skewing facts from the game and spoilers. Imagine that.


Hey, look, it's Dean's "baffle 'em with bullschit" routine to sound smart whilst not actually saying anything at all.

Imagine that.

Kind of hard to get more to the point than 'you're wrong,' but hey. Just for you.

You're wrong.

#143
Seboist

Seboist
  • Members
  • 11 989 messages
I have to hand it to Bioware for creating something so ridiculous (Balak in ME3) that it makes Helena Blake becoming a social worker look sensible.

Modifié par Seboist, 01 janvier 2012 - 01:12 .


#144
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Maybe Spectre status is a little too much. TIM could just ask the Council to suspend any warrants it has against Cerberus, granting the organization legitimacy.

Too benevolent and restrained on Cerberus's part. Opportunism in the face of crisis should definetly be their game.

Spectre status just lets them do it more openly, and without meaningful objection.


Sure, but if he's going to go that far then why doesn't TIM just ask that he be made head of the Alliance? Or that Cerberus is formally recognized as the true representative of humanity? It'd be more realistic to have a Spectre or Spectres in his pocket than to be one himself.

How so? Being a Spectre doesn't imply galactic leadership, nor is it an absurd attempt to elbow out the other powers (that are also actually in power).

It serves a practical goal (legitimization) within a reasonable limit (not claiming to be the only faction interested in humanity), while also giving the Council a way to mitigate the damages in the future (revoking the status later, if Cerberus is too extreme) which makes it more paltable for the Council to give (because it's only for a while).

#145
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

Saphra Deden wrote...

If this happens at the very end of the game there is no reason Shepard shouldn't be able to agree to do things TIM's way.

Sure there could be: Shepard could not be aware what TIM is up to. And there's certainly plenty of reasonable reasons for TIM not to tell Shepard things to important to risk leaking.

It would be especially fun if doing so meant you had to fight most of your own squadmates.

Maybe in the last five minutes.

#146
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

Seboist wrote...

I have to hand it to Bioware for creating something so ridiculous (Balak in ME3) that it makes Helena Blake becoming a social worker look sensible.

'Remember the good old days, when career criminals would walk away from highly lucrative and successful lives of crime if Shepard became a Spectre for the third or fourth time...?"

#147
HiroVoid

HiroVoid
  • Members
  • 3 693 messages

Seboist wrote...

I have to hand it to Bioware for creating something so ridiculous (Balak in ME3) that it makes Helena Blake becoming a social worker look sensible.

To be fair, she at least had to stop being a criminal considering both persuasion options for paragon and renegade had her stop committing crimes, and the universe would implode if one of Shepard's persuasion options led to a worse option.

#148
Dean_the_Young

Dean_the_Young
  • Members
  • 20 684 messages

HiroVoid wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I have to hand it to Bioware for creating something so ridiculous (Balak in ME3) that it makes Helena Blake becoming a social worker look sensible.

To be fair, she at least had to stop being a criminal considering both persuasion options for paragon and renegade had her stop committing crimes, and the universe would implode if one of Shepard's persuasion options led to a worse option.

Like returning to the life of crime about 30 seconds after Shepard walked out the door?

Wait, that was the Renegade non-persuasion option...

#149
Guest_FallTooDovahkiin_*

Guest_FallTooDovahkiin_*
  • Guests
tim a bad guy tbh coz he lyke .. gave birf to da reapers tbh

#150
Seboist

Seboist
  • Members
  • 11 989 messages

HiroVoid wrote...

Seboist wrote...

I have to hand it to Bioware for creating something so ridiculous (Balak in ME3) that it makes Helena Blake becoming a social worker look sensible.

To be fair, she at least had to stop being a criminal considering both persuasion options for paragon and renegade had her stop committing crimes, and the universe would implode if one of Shepard's persuasion options led to a worse option.


Yeah, it's really an issue of how ridiculous talk-jutsu is in general than a PVR one(except for cases like Zaeed's LM). The only sensible options for dealing with Blake are taking her down or letting her go on with her business.