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[karatemanchan37]

Seboist wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Cerberus troops wear full body armor. You could put Batarians or even Asari into the models just as easily.

Only difference is that neither of those races have the mobility, motive or resources Cerberus has.

They're a little busy with trying to fend off the machine race that wants to turn them into milkshakes.

Would have been nice if Arrival wasn't just an excuse to start on Earth,no?

But it's not - Arrival definitvley splits what little chance we have of a peaceful Batarian-Human relationship.

Think about it from their prespective: A human led scientist/research group and a whack-job commando manage to obliterate an entire system and killed 300,000 of what's left of the Batarians. And for what? To prevent a genocidal attack on the entire milky way based on prophicies and guess-work? If the Citadel manage to keep its inhibitants silent from Soverigen, then the Batarians, who live in a isolated space far in the Terminus systems probably don't even believe Reapers exsist.

They won't take anything less than a terrorist attack by the human alliance and already threatened to go to war with the Humans. When the Reapers do come and attack Earth, trying to wipe out humanity, why wouldn't the Batarians help with the process, much less declare war over the weakened forces of what's left of the Alliance fleet?

[Dean_the_Young]

karatemanchan37 wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Cerberus troops wear full body armor. You could put Batarians or even Asari into the models just as easily.

Only difference is that neither of those races have the mobility, motive or resources Cerberus has.

They're a little busy with trying to fend off the machine race that wants to turn them into milkshakes.

Would have been nice if Arrival wasn't just an excuse to start on Earth,no?

But it's not - Arrival definitvley splits what little chance we have of a peaceful Batarian-Human relationship.

Think about it from their prespective: A human led scientist/research group and a whack-job commando manage to obliterate an entire system and killed 300,000 of what's left of the Batarians. And for what? To prevent a genocidal attack on the entire milky way based on prophicies and guess-work? If the Citadel manage to keep its inhibitants silent from Soverigen, then the Batarians, who live in a isolated space far in the Terminus systems probably don't even believe Reapers exsist.

They won't take anything less than a terrorist attack by the human alliance and already threatened to go to war with the Humans. When the Reapers do come and attack Earth, trying to wipe out humanity, why wouldn't the Batarians help with the process, much less declare war over the weakened forces of what's left of the Alliance fleet?

That would have made a good basis for the Batarians being allied with the Reapers.

Of course, that alliance of evil would have also made a good basis for the rise of the mythical Good Batarians, who would realize the insanity of allying with the Reapers. We could have had a Batarian civil war in which 'good' Batarians who, while they don't like Humans at least understand and accept why Arrival had to be done, overthrow the corrupt and indoctrinated Batarian Hegemony with Shepard's help and join the galactic alliance.

[Kaiser Shepard]

Nightmaire wrote...

There's no telling that TIM isn't already indoctrinated. Just saying.

Ah, so that's why he had Shepard resurrected, bought him a new ship and equipment, and then sent him after the Reapers' proxy.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Nightmaire wrote...

There's no telling that TIM isn't already indoctrinated. Just saying.

Ah, so that's why he had Shepard resurrected, bought him a new ship and equipment, and then sent him after the Reapers' proxy.

You forgot the most important part ... and he has done all of these expenses and efforts against the reapers to join them at the end.
Cool  story Broware.

Modifié par Jedi Sentinel Arian, 01 janvier 2012 - 04:37 .

[Seboist]

ME2 was about a feud between TIM and the SB for Harbinger's love and attention.

[Labrev]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

Guy, please.

You claim Paragons get the better outcome because they can get Zaeed's loyalty on his mission (iffy, must actually meet the high persuade requirement), save a handful or people, and save the refinery.

Misrepresentation of position.

You include the refinery when it has no tangible benefit in the least

Besides credits, 'tangible benefits' is not the only sort of benefit or the only concern.

and TIM's post-mission report saying it is millions of $ away from being functional again, yet claim that the renegade path doesn't benefit from stopping a major merc-leader because nothing came of it

Misrepresentation of position.

Meanwhile, the outcome of the paragon path in ME3 results in... people dying on the same exact mission!

That's just one of your claims.

No, it isn't. Another misrepresentation of position.

While it's impressive you dropped three strawmen in one post, it's also expected at this point.

Well if its just me not understanding you right on anything while you also had the gall (for lack of a better word) to accuse me of skewing facts and such, surely you must have some thought-out rationale behind why you think I'm wrong in what I'm saying.

So tell me, how exactly have they undermined the renegade path here exactly that I can't see? I'm dying to hear it.

[Nightmaire]

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Nightmaire wrote...

There's no telling that TIM isn't already indoctrinated. Just saying.

Ah, so that's why he had Shepard resurrected, bought him a new ship and equipment, and then sent him after the Reapers' proxy.

Not to mention, TIM's goal was to find out more about the reapers and their technology. He brought Shepard back just for this goal (even if he insists it was for humanity) Some other discussion brought up that TIM was more than likely conducting experiments on aliens and humans via reaper tech and possible indoctrination

[AlexXIV]

Nightmaire wrote...

Kaiser Shepard wrote...

Nightmaire wrote...

There's no telling that TIM isn't already indoctrinated. Just saying.

Ah, so that's why he had Shepard resurrected, bought him a new ship and equipment, and then sent him after the Reapers' proxy.

Not to mention, TIM's goal was to find out more about the reapers and their technology. He brought Shepard back just for this goal (even if he insists it was for humanity) Some other discussion brought up that TIM was more than likely conducting experiments on aliens and humans via reaper tech and possible indoctrination

Actually the only way Shep's ressurection makes sense is that it was an experiment. If you are researching a project like Lazarus you probably need a live (or in this case dead) lab rat before you try it on ... say ... yourself. So probably it was somewhat of a coincidence that Shepard died just then and TIM was like ... oh nice, what an opportunity. Because he could test his research and at the same time one of the probably most influential persons in the galaxy would owe him.

Tim always says he spent that and that much money for bringing back Shep. But in truth if you think about it he didn't just start the research to bring back Shep. He probably started it to have some way to bring back people that are imporant for him and somehow died in an accident or attack or whatever.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 janvier 2012 - 12:17 .

[Chrisimo]

Is TIM a bad guy? Depends on who you ask. Was Hitler a bad guy?
Because that is who TIM is. The only thing that seperates him from Hitler is that he doesn't have as much power yet. Everything else that is important is the same. Because you don't need much aside from power to be a Hitler. You only need the right ideology. And the ideology of Cerberus and the ****s is identical. Master race (or in this case master species) should dominate inferior species by all means neccessary. This ideology allows any action against inferioir species if they anyhow threaten the master species. To Hitler and the ****s, killing Jews was no crime, because Jews were basically equivalents of animals. We kill our animals if we need to or want to. We use them as research subjects of workhorses. And that is the danger of this ideology. It allows the master race to do whatever they want with the inferior races.
And even though it could be so easy to see where this leads many people don't see it (myself included up until recently). They simply don't (want to) believe that TIm would go as far. Just like many Germans back then didn't see Hitler for what he was. He wanted to make Germany strong again - he wanted to protect Germany from the other evil races. That can't be totally bad, can it? He surely wouldn't go as far as to exterminate other races, would he?
And it's the same with TIM. You think he wouldn't go as far? Think again. Make his ideology your own for a while. Don't view Turians as a cool Alien species. Think of them as insects - flies maybe or other insects you don't like. What do you do if one such insect bothers you too much? You kill it. You don't feel guilt or remorse. You don't think you have committed a crime - because it is just an insect, inferior to humans. That is how Cerberus views Aliens.
The Reapers actually are what TIM dreams to be because they have the same ideology but have the power to act on it properly - no needing to hide. The only problem with them is that they view humanity as inferior to them too. But if he could work out a partnership between humanity and the Reapers or could control them - that would be paradise for him.

[Someone With Mass]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
They're inter-stellar empires with megacorporations and major production centers. That's the resources. They have ships, special forces, and assault craft. That's the mobility. They can be indoctrinated. Since that's what Cerberus is, that shouldn't be a problem.

All those things are a little busy keeping the Reapers at bay. And they're failing horribly at it because they're so large. Cerberus has more mobility because they're a relatively small force with not as much material to move around, and the batarians pretty much ceased to be a major production center when the Reapers attacked them.

Dean_the_Young wrote... 
Of course, Batarians could also easily justify a partially-indoctrinated, partially-too-hateful-to-care leadership that either wants to take down the Humans first, or thinks the Reapers will fail but that the Hegemony could ally with them to both spare themselves AND to bring low their historic rivals. (Also, intend to betray the Reapers at the end to achieve victory.)

You assume that the Reapers will spare them in the initial contacts and not turn them into mindless drones, sleeper agents, husks or make more Reaper destroyers out of them. Since, you know, that's their whole plan and reason to come to our doorstep.

Dean_the_Young wrote... 

They're a little busy with trying to fend off the machine race that wants to turn them into milkshakes.

Like Cerberus was?

Last time I checked, all they did was fighting the Collectors. They're not doing crap against the Reapers themselves.

[AlexXIV]

TIM isn't Hitler. There may be similarities but Hitler shares similarities with all powerhungry dictators. Hitler though made some very bad mistakes from start. He was so into his hate philosphy that many people never had a doubt about his intentions. TIM though could still be seen a well meaning person, despite his ruthless ways to get results. Though I don't find him trustworthy at all. He will help you as long as you share common interests. If you get in his way or he has no more use for you, you're going into the trash bin. The hard part is to figure out when you (or Shepard) have become more trouble than you're worth to him.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Chrisimo wrote...

Is TIM a bad guy? Depends on who you ask. Was Hitler a bad guy?
Because that is who TIM is. The only thing that seperates him from Hitler is that he doesn't have as much power yet. Everything else that is important is the same. Because you don't need much aside from power to be a Hitler. You only need the right ideology. And the ideology of Cerberus and the ****s is identical.

Erm...no. No, not really.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Last time I checked, all they did was fighting the Collectors. They're not doing crap against the Reapers themselves.

Well without actual Reapers to fight what are they supposed to do?

That said, they did incorporate anti-Reaper algorythms into EDI and the experiments they performed in Retribution were centered around understanding Reaper tech.

However I get the feeling there is no satisfactory answer for you. Even if Cerberus went into dark space and killed several Reapers I'm sure you'd still find some reason to fault them.

You're really quite shallow.

On that note one has to wonder why we didn't see Cerberus help us with Sovereign. Either they were unaware of the Reapers yet, or maybe it is because of the cut content, or ... a wide field of speculation opens.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Well without actual Reapers to fight what are they supposed to do?

That said, they did incorporate anti-Reaper algorythms into EDI and the experiments they performed in Retribution were centered around understanding Reaper tech.

However I get the feeling there is no satisfactory answer for you. Even if Cerberus went into dark space and killed several Reapers I'm sure you'd still find some reason to fault them.

You're really quite shallow.

No, then I'd call them useful.

Their leader would still be a ****ing retard, but they'd be useful in that case.

Oh, and here's an interesting thought: What if they shared their knowledge and results, so other factions can possibly benefit from their discoveries and in its turn help the war effort and possibly keep the Reapers off their backs a little longer? 

That wouldn't hurt so much besides their overrated pride, now would it?

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

On that note one has to wonder why we didn't see Cerberus help us with Sovereign. Either they were unaware of the Reapers yet, or maybe it is because of the cut content, or ... a wide field of speculation opens.

They didn't even know what Sovereign was. Until after ME1 TIM didn't know about the Reapers exactly. He knew there was a threat out there but didn't know what it was. It was only after Sovereign that he put the pieces together.

In any case, I would consider taking action against the Reaper's latest proxy army to be Cerberus fighting the Reapers.

It's a hell of a lot more than anyone else did.

It is just funny that they were unaware and then within 2 years they make such progress. Using Reaper tech, finding an actual derelict Reaper. Could just be questionalbe story telling/luck again, but if there is an actual reason that makes sense behind it then it would be that they work for the Reapers. Maybe indirectly, maybe even without knowing. I mean 2 years may seem along time, but from zero to ahead of everyone else in the galaxy is quite a jump. I'd even wager to build a Project Lazarzus would rather be a matter of decades than years.

Unless for example they knew that the Normandy would be attacked and they had help building the project in time. I mean after all Shepard may be of use for the Reapers in some way. They probably recognize that something is special about him/her and maybe they have plans for him/her. I wouldn't know what exactly of course. But looking how they are 'gods' and ran into a mortal who actually managed to cross their plans it seems likely they are intrigued.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 janvier 2012 - 12:34 .

[Chrisimo]

AlexXIV wrote...

TIM isn't Hitler. There may be similarities but Hitler shares similarities with all powerhungry dictators. Hitler though made some very bad mistakes from start. He was so into his hate philosphy that many people never had a doubt about his intentions. TIM though could still be seen a well meaning person, despite his ruthless ways to get results. Though I don't find him trustworthy at all. He will help you as long as you share common interests. If you get in his way or he has no more use for you, you're going into the trash bin. The hard part is to figure out when you (or Shepard) have become more trouble than you're worth to him.

The fact that you don't see it shows the dangers of this ideology. TIM is actually well meaning - just like Hitler was. He is well meaning towards the master race (which only includes those of said race who don't act against him). TIM plainly states that he will try to achive his goals by any means neccessarry. His goals are human dominance over the weaker species. Why don't you believe him?
Try to adopt his ideology for a moment. Try to view the others species as inferior - as animals, which can be used for our purpose or can be kept as pets but must not be allowed to threaten human wellbeing. You think TIM would hesitate to exterminate the Turian species if he thought the posed a threat to humanity and had the power to stop this threat?

[Chrisimo]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Is TIM a bad guy? Depends on who you ask. Was Hitler a bad guy?
Because that is who TIM is. The only thing that seperates him from Hitler is that he doesn't have as much power yet. Everything else that is important is the same. Because you don't need much aside from power to be a Hitler. You only need the right ideology. And the ideology of Cerberus and the ****s is identical.

Erm...no. No, not really.

Cerberus doesn't view humanity as the master species that should dominate the other species?

[Someone With Mass]

AlexXIV wrote...

It is just funny that they were unaware and then within 2 years they make such progress. Using Reaper tech, finding an actual derelict Reaper. Could just be questionalbe story telling/luck again, but if there is an actual reason that makes sense behind it then it would be that they work for the Reapers. Maybe indirectly, maybe even without knowing. I mean 2 years may seem along time, but from zero to ahead of everyone else in the galaxy is quite a jump. I'd even wager to build a Project Lazarzus would rather be a matter of decades than years.

I think it's more of a play on the human Mary Sue card.

This ancient technology that no-one has figured out for decades/took them thousands of years to master?

Give the humans half a year and they'll up the standards of that field and negate all the attempts at making the technology mysterious and unpredictable in the progress.