325 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Chrisimo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Is TIM a bad guy? Depends on who you ask. Was Hitler a bad guy?
Because that is who TIM is. The only thing that seperates him from Hitler is that he doesn't have as much power yet. Everything else that is important is the same. Because you don't need much aside from power to be a Hitler. You only need the right ideology. And the ideology of Cerberus and the ****s is identical.

Erm...no. No, not really.

Cerberus doesn't view humanity as the master species that should dominate the other species?

He never says that. Especially the part with the master species. But he is probably thinking, since he is human (as far as we can tell) that if he put the humans in a position to dominate the galaxy then he himself would gain enough power, influence, reputation, etc. to actually make the calls. And if he thinks that the current council/government is incompetent then he probably also thinks that human dominance is for the better of the whole galaxy. He never really makes statements that suggest genocide or anything like that. Neither does he suggest wiping out other species or enslaving them or whatever. Some Cerberus fanboys may think so, but that's their problem, not TIM's, or ours.

[Chrisimo]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Is TIM a bad guy? Depends on who you ask. Was Hitler a bad guy?
Because that is who TIM is. The only thing that seperates him from Hitler is that he doesn't have as much power yet. Everything else that is important is the same. Because you don't need much aside from power to be a Hitler. You only need the right ideology. And the ideology of Cerberus and the ****s is identical.

Erm...no. No, not really.

Cerberus doesn't view humanity as the master species that should dominate the other species?

No, they view humanity's safety and well being as paramount and that the best way to facilitate that is to be in a position of dominance.

Or do you consider the Council to be "Hitler" too?

Cerberus is a nationalist movement, not a racist one.

Humanity in Mass Effect is akin to a nation. 

Cerberus are Americans who feel American interests must be given priority because no other country is going to be chiefly concerned with American needs before its own needs.

Get it?

The council follows rules. Americans follow rules. Cerberus does not. TIM plainly states that he will achieve his goal by any means neccessary. But you refuse to believe him.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...
What other discoveries should they have given out?

Gee whiz, I wonder. Maybe those Reaper attack programs EDI has so the Reapers can't hack everything that has a wireless network?

Or maybe the Reaper IFF algorithms so the Reapers won't lock everyone out of the mass relay network when they take over the Citadel or potentially find other uses for it?

[AlexXIV]

Chrisimo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

TIM isn't Hitler. There may be similarities but Hitler shares similarities with all powerhungry dictators. Hitler though made some very bad mistakes from start. He was so into his hate philosphy that many people never had a doubt about his intentions. TIM though could still be seen a well meaning person, despite his ruthless ways to get results. Though I don't find him trustworthy at all. He will help you as long as you share common interests. If you get in his way or he has no more use for you, you're going into the trash bin. The hard part is to figure out when you (or Shepard) have become more trouble than you're worth to him.

The fact that you don't see it shows the dangers of this ideology. TIM is actually well meaning - just like Hitler was. He is well meaning towards the master race (which only includes those of said race who don't act against him). TIM plainly states that he will try to achive his goals by any means neccessarry. His goals are human dominance over the weaker species. Why don't you believe him?
Try to adopt his ideology for a moment. Try to view the others species as inferior - as animals, which can be used for our purpose or can be kept as pets but must not be allowed to threaten human wellbeing. You think TIM would hesitate to exterminate the Turian species if he thought the posed a threat to humanity and had the power to stop this threat?

I don't underestimate TIM. I never give him the base for that very reason you know. And I work against Cerberus as much as I can. I am just relativating the 'TIM is HItler' hypothesis. I used it myself, mind you, to demonstrate what I think of him. But if you are serious and honest they are only alike on the surface. And I don't share his view of human dominance or the Council being incompetent either.

The thing with Hitler was, they never thought of him as a nice person. Only the other fascists did. Hitler was underestimated in being able to gain power in a democracy. That's what nobody thought possible. That he was actually winning elections with this kind of ideology. TIM on the other hand doesn't write books like 'Mein Kampf' where he demonstrates he plans or whatever. I don't even know if Cerberus has official connections to human racist organisations. As far as I know Cerberus are merely a rogue black ops. And that they don't think aliens are animals is shown by the fact that he thinks that the best team in the galaxy consists of humans AND aliens.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Some Cerberus fanboys may think so, but that's their problem, not TIM's, or ours.

Pff---HA!

It's the Cerberus haters who routinely spout that BS, not the "fanboys".

That said, I'd be fine with wiping out the other races if we could do so safely.

It's only logical.

I said some, not all. I have seen some posters suggesting genocide to non human species. That's why I said it. I didn't mean you, or your pals.

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

And I don't share his view of human dominance or the Council being incompetent either.

You are reprehensible.

Lol, probably.

I just don't judge them so hard. I mean the Reapers are (officially) not more than a myth. Shepard and his crew have encountered many evidence who then strangly vanished or fell apart. Would you believe someone who tells you there is a threat somewhere and doesn't really deliver hard evidence. I mean some people say the world ends in 2012, just saying. I don't think it does because I would need something of a proof to go crazy. Especially since the world was supposed to end in 2000 already, and it didn't.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 01 janvier 2012 - 12:55 .

[Chrisimo]

AlexXIV wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Is TIM a bad guy? Depends on who you ask. Was Hitler a bad guy?
Because that is who TIM is. The only thing that seperates him from Hitler is that he doesn't have as much power yet. Everything else that is important is the same. Because you don't need much aside from power to be a Hitler. You only need the right ideology. And the ideology of Cerberus and the ****s is identical.

Erm...no. No, not really.

Cerberus doesn't view humanity as the master species that should dominate the other species?

He never says that. Especially the part with the master species. But he is probably thinking, since he is human (as far as we can tell) that if he put the humans in a position to dominate the galaxy then he himself would gain enough power, influence, reputation, etc. to actually make the calls. And if he thinks that the current council/government is incompetent then he probably also thinks that human dominance is for the better of the whole galaxy. He never really makes statements that suggest genocide or anything like that. Neither does he suggest wiping out other species or enslaving them or whatever. Some Cerberus fanboys may think so, but that's their problem, not TIM's, or ours.

Look, he doesn't need to say that directly. Hitler didn't talk openly about genocide. The original plan for the jews was not extermination but extradition. Of course organisations like this wouldn't openly adopt a plan for genocide if they are not in a posiiton of power, if ever. For his viewpoints you just need to read the books. Everything alien is inferior in his viewpoint.
But you don't need even that. You just need to believe him when he says he will try to achieve human dominance by all means neccessary.

[AlexXIV]

Chrisimo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

Is TIM a bad guy? Depends on who you ask. Was Hitler a bad guy?
Because that is who TIM is. The only thing that seperates him from Hitler is that he doesn't have as much power yet. Everything else that is important is the same. Because you don't need much aside from power to be a Hitler. You only need the right ideology. And the ideology of Cerberus and the ****s is identical.

Erm...no. No, not really.

Cerberus doesn't view humanity as the master species that should dominate the other species?

He never says that. Especially the part with the master species. But he is probably thinking, since he is human (as far as we can tell) that if he put the humans in a position to dominate the galaxy then he himself would gain enough power, influence, reputation, etc. to actually make the calls. And if he thinks that the current council/government is incompetent then he probably also thinks that human dominance is for the better of the whole galaxy. He never really makes statements that suggest genocide or anything like that. Neither does he suggest wiping out other species or enslaving them or whatever. Some Cerberus fanboys may think so, but that's their problem, not TIM's, or ours.

Look, he doesn't need to say that directly. Hitler didn't talk openly about genocide. The original plan for the jews was not extermination but extradition. Of course organisations like this wouldn't openly adopt a plan for genocide if they are not in a posiiton of power, if ever. For his viewpoints you just need to read the books. Everything alien is inferior in his viewpoint.
But you don't need even that. You just need to believe him when he says he will try to achieve human dominance by all means neccessary.

Genocide is not just killing people. It starts with socially suppressing them. Like not allow them in certain jobs, or areas, etc. It happened quite openly in germany. And the world watched. Just sayin'

[nitefyre410]

Ticktank wrote...

I think Cerberus HAD to be villains this time round, for gameplay reasons. We need to have more than just Reaper forces and the occasional Geth to kill.

 


Oh they did you just happened to blow  them all to hell or microwave them and keep their  base as a summer home.

The thing about Cerberus  being  Reapers foot solider proxies and TIM possible working them all  along is the it makes ME 2 make absolutly  no sense.. the  Collectors killed him why have Cerberus around to bring about you biggest threat. The Collectors were the perfect   Red Shirt army, along with some random cults that pop up and the  indoctrination high ranking offical. 


Oh and one of the major factors for  TIM  in creating Cerebus was to get humanity ready to fight the  Reapers which has been the past 30  or more years of  his life sense the end of the  First  Contact  War.    No he is working with them after 30 years of single minded focus fo trying to stop them.

Hell even Lex Luthor will  team up with Superman to fight  Darksied.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

What makes you think that is even necessary? Without the Citadel how can the Reapers lock down relays?

I ask again, under what context would Cerberus give these gifts?

"Here are some virulent computer programs that will protect you from those machine creatures that wacko Shepard is always ranting about. Quick! Install them in all of your sensitive computer networks and military crafts!

Here's a piece of hardware that does something similar!"

The only "find" Cerberus could have shared productively would have been the derelict Reaper itself and as I already explained that wouldn't be a good idea.

You know, whatever the case. Maybe Cerberus could do better, but they are still the only ones doing anything. Beggars can't be choosers and you are one picky beggar.

Here's an interesting thought: Why don't you figure out a way from them to share the technology with...say, the Alliance (they're holding out big time, by the way) that doesn't make them look like complete and selfish pricks?

[Chrisimo]

AlexXIV wrote...

Chrisimo wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

TIM isn't Hitler. There may be similarities but Hitler shares similarities with all powerhungry dictators. Hitler though made some very bad mistakes from start. He was so into his hate philosphy that many people never had a doubt about his intentions. TIM though could still be seen a well meaning person, despite his ruthless ways to get results. Though I don't find him trustworthy at all. He will help you as long as you share common interests. If you get in his way or he has no more use for you, you're going into the trash bin. The hard part is to figure out when you (or Shepard) have become more trouble than you're worth to him.

The fact that you don't see it shows the dangers of this ideology. TIM is actually well meaning - just like Hitler was. He is well meaning towards the master race (which only includes those of said race who don't act against him). TIM plainly states that he will try to achive his goals by any means neccessarry. His goals are human dominance over the weaker species. Why don't you believe him?
Try to adopt his ideology for a moment. Try to view the others species as inferior - as animals, which can be used for our purpose or can be kept as pets but must not be allowed to threaten human wellbeing. You think TIM would hesitate to exterminate the Turian species if he thought the posed a threat to humanity and had the power to stop this threat?

The thing with Hitler was, they never thought of him as a nice person. Only the other fascists did. Hitler was underestimated in being able to gain power in a democracy. That's what nobody thought possible. That he was actually winning elections with this kind of ideology. TIM on the other hand doesn't write books like 'Mein Kampf' where he demonstrates he plans or whatever. I don't even know if Cerberus has official connections to human racist organisations. As far as I know Cerberus are merely a rogue black ops. And that they don't think aliens are animals is shown by the fact that he thinks that the best team in the galaxy consists of humans AND aliens.

I don't know if a lot of people thought of Hitler as a nice person. A lot of people liked him though. Of course they were mostly german. And he could be a nice person if he wanted to. He was very charismatic. And he wasn't really winning elections. He got a good share, but wasn't winning.
But maybe I'm missing something in your argument. What makes you think that Cerberus would be any different than the ****s once they have achieved enough power?

[Dave of Canada]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Talk-jutsu backfired in ME1 for renegades in ME3.

Which one is that, if I might ask?

Happens in the genophage plot, it's better to not intimidate/charm something in ME1 if you're renegade. It screws you out of a fleet or two.

[AlexXIV]

A good example was the issue with Tali on Freedom's Progress. My paragon Shep let the Quarian go with Tali and got the intel she wanted. TIM was suprised because he probably would rather not have expected to come through with their part of the bargain. That's basically the main error/problem with Cerberus which makes it hard for everyone to work with them. So they stand on their own. I guess TIM started or starts to realize this. That's why he needs Shepard. Most if not all of Shepard's crew (which are supposed to be the best of the best) is only on the mission because of Shepard, not because of Cerberus or because of the human colonies or Collectors.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Why should I? It's not my job and I'm not the one who brought it up. You are the one who is telling me, us, them, what Cerberus should do so I think the onus to explain it is on you.

Because it'd help you think that Cerberus can do things wrong and actually can improve beyond what they already are.

[AlexXIV]

Chrisimo wrote...
But maybe I'm missing something in your argument. What makes you think that Cerberus would be any different than the ****s once they have achieved enough power?

Nothing. I am just saying that they are not so open about. Maybe people could believe they are 'merely protecting humanity' which in itself isn't necessarily a bad thing. Look, they used to be Alliance black ops. So they mostly are humans and recruit humans. You don't see many non-salarians in STG, and I guess they also have Salarian interests at heart. Same with turians and other species. Cerberus simply isn't big in anti alien propagands. Actually they are not a political party at all. Hardly anyone knows of them aside from other secret service organisations. If they were really anti-alien then you'd think they have some sort of propaganda machinery going and they probably wouldn't work with my paragon Shepard who was an outspoken alien friend in ME1. I think their reputation may be alot worse than their motivations. That's all. Well, unless they work with the Reapers. That's sort of unforgivable. For many reasons. But we don't know that (yet).

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dave of Canada wrote...

Talk-jutsu backfired in ME1 for renegades in ME3.

Which one is that, if I might ask?

Happens in the genophage plot, it's better to not intimidate/charm something in ME1 if you're renegade. It screws you out of a fleet or two.

PM please?

[AlexXIV]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

A good example was the issue with Tali on Freedom's Progress. My paragon Shep let the Quarian go with Tali and got the intel she wanted. TIM was suprised because he probably would rather not have expected to come through with their part of the bargain. That's basically the main error/problem with Cerberus which makes it hard for everyone to work with them. So they stand on their own. I guess TIM started or starts to realize this. That's why he needs Shepard. Most if not all of Shepard's crew (which are supposed to be the best of the best) is only on the mission because of Shepard, not because of Cerberus or because of the human colonies or Collectors.

Frankly I think the quarains honoring their end of the bargain is just... weird.

Have your cake and eat it too as well.

Then again, I'm a cynic so I suppose I just can't understand good intentions or natures.

I only plaý paragon, so Tali and my Shep are BFF. Sort of

So it's not weird for me. I assume Tali has a word in it and who really wants to mess with her? Anyway, for Renegades is may be ... unexpectable.