269 réponses à ce sujet

[Yana Montana]

Cultist wrote...

if fenris and anders were real

The fact that they do look alike is quite ironic and very disturbing.

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I find it slightly funny that Zjarcal's pic in response to Brockololly's post with the word pony in it is of a pony.

Made me chuckle, it did.

Anyway, back on topic. Fenris just won't change his views, at least in game. I happen to always pursue the friendship path with him because that's the one that makes me think his views will eventually change. The way I see what happens down both paths, Rivalry has him embittered towards his past and never moving on while Friendship has him doing exactly the opposite.

And thus, he's more likely to be a better person. 

I can understand his distrust of magic and his hatred of demons and mages that work with demons, but to paint all mages the same way for the rest of his life shouldn't happen.

He does not paint all mages with the same brush, a mage has to prove he is wrong about them to get his trust which Bethany and a magehawke do. Merrill and Anders do not, However he does not hate Merrill, he just finds her idiotic. He does however hate Anders and has good reasons to.

[Mr.House]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

Wow wow, slow down...I wasn't drawing a comparison between Merrill and Morrigan...that's not even possible, me thinks...I just stated that Morrigan was far more interesting in my opinion. Meh, guess I don't get swept away by her cute big eyes and sweet character like other people...no offense, though, to each his/her own.

Leli is still better then both

Modifié par Mr.House, 01 janvier 2012 - 10:53 .

[Hendo91]

Personally Fenris and Anders (along with Isabella) would have to be my favourite characters in Dragon Age 2. I generally found their bickering and whining to be perfectly understandable in the context of their past experiences and the events occurring throughout the course of game. I liked that they were actually passionate about something and had strong opinions. There were times, however, where I wish my Hawke could have just sat them down and got them to discuss and consider the merits of each others arguments (although I don't suppose that would have helped).

[TEWR]

Brockololly wrote...

Hardly.

Morrigan doesn't get played like a fiddle by a demon, she realizes she's in  the Fade with a demon and knows its a trick. Come on man, Merrill is barely involved with Flemeth at all beyond being a stage prop in her resurrection. Big difference between that and being an actual Witch of the Wilds like Morrigan. Yes, they both deal with Eluvians but Morrigan actually gets one working while Merrill goofs that up catastrophically. Merrill has no where near the storyline importance of somebody like Morrigan with the Dark Ritual, otherwise she would have been imbued with magical plot armor like Morrigan.

First off, nice gif. Where's that from? And I said she's pretty much the Morrigan of DAII. I never said she was point for point the Morrigan of DAII, nor even that she and Morrigan were on the same level. Just that she's -- for DAII anyway -- the Morrigan of DAII.

Second, the demon that Morrigan dealt with wasn't trying to mind control her like Wryme did to Merrill. It was trying to get her to embrace the image of Flemeth of her own accord, of which it did a poor job of it. It was obvious Morrigan wouldn't have fallen for it because Flemeth was nothing like that to Morrigan.

Merrill herself said she knew not to trust the demon in the Fade, but was forced to. The fact that she knew not to trust the demon means that she and Morrigan are alike in that they know they can't trust or believe what a demon says.

Sure Merrill was mind controlled into doing it, but had Wryme not mind controlled her and instead tried to get her to do it of her own volition I have no doubt in my mind she would've refused.

And besides, she gives approval for Hawke playing Torpor and not getting played himself.

Third, Flemeth obviously has some significance to the Dalish people and possibly the Dalish Pantheon itself. She's the only person not amongst them to call them "the People". Actually, I seem to recall a dev post or comment outside of the BSN saying Hawke would meet Flemeth in the future, though that might be faulty memory.

So I'd say that Merrill being a "prop" in her resurrection is far from accurate.

Fourth, Morrigan was working with an already built, still functional Eluvian. Merrill was building one from scratch. Morrigan may have just needed to cast a spell on it -- and when the Warden meets her the Eluvian is already working since her kid's on the other side of it -- while Merrill needed to delve much deeper into the knowledge of the Eluvians. I don't see how Merrill messed it up at all.

Honestly I doubt Morrigan could've invested too much time into Eluvian studying when the book was written entirely in Elvish and she had a kid to take care of. Morrigan got lucky. She found a tome that was all about one subject: the Eluvians. Merrill didn't have that luxury. She didn't know where that clan was nor do we even know if she knows they have it. She's stuck within the boundaries of the Free Marches, and unless that clan comes to her she has to use whatever lost bit of lore and scrap of research she can find and extrapolate from it. On this point, she is close to being if not already equal to being Morrigan.

She got farther to building one and understanding one then even the Tevinter Magisters of old ever could. And there is in fact power within the Eluvian -- something she states -- but she can't figure out how to get it to work. It's my belief that Morrigan's spell would get it to work, and then she'd surpass Morrigan regarding the Eluvians.

And Merrill's able to continue her work if encouraged. My guess is that the Eluvians will be key in Hawke's disappearance. I mean the game practically spells this out. Hawke will probably find one and go through it, hopefully alongside Merrill.

And god do I hate how the companions can be killed.

Mr. House wrote...

He does not paint all mages with the same brush, a mage has to prove he is wrong about them to get his trust which Bethany and a magehawke do. Merrill and Anders do not, However he does not hate Merrill, he just finds her idiotic. He does however hate Anders and has good reasons to.

He paints them as all being untrustworthy until he can actually trust them, simply for being mages. He doesn't do this to Aveline or Warrior/Rogue Hawke or anyone else simply for being strangers. Because they're not mages, he can apparently trust them.

He even says that the mages will turn on Hawke.

"You harbor vipers in your midst. They'll turn on you and strike when you least expect. That is in its nature."

So yes, he does paint them all with the same brush. It isn't until someone goes "You know, this one is better with some red" that he admits he's wrong about painting that mage in that light.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 01 janvier 2012 - 11:25 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Brockololly wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Indeed. I love Morrigan just as much as I love Merrill. Merrill is pretty much the Morrigan of DAII.

Different
personalites, but storyline wise they're largely the same. Both play a
part in the story of Flemeth, both deal with the Eluvians, both are
fascinated with magic, both try to play demons before they get played,
etc.

Hardly.

Morrigan doesn't get played like a fiddle by a demon, she realizes she's in  the Fade with a demon and knows its a trick. Come on man, Merrill is barely involved with Flemeth at all beyond being a stage prop in her resurrection. Big difference between that and being an actual Witch of the Wilds like Morrigan. Yes, they both deal with Eluvians but Morrigan actually gets one working while Merrill goofs that up catastrophically. Merrill has no where near the storyline importance of somebody like Morrigan with the Dark Ritual, otherwise she would have been imbued with magical plot armor like Morrigan.

Yea the comparison made my very bones contract and defy biology. Thank you for your post.

As for Anders and Fenris.
I actually like Anders and find him one of the very few redeeming things about the game, though I think he could have been done much much better (specifically the Justice part that was under-explored, I felt). He is annoying, but I can tolerate that because he does the only interesting thing in Act 3 that makes it a tiny bit less of a complete and utter disaster.

As for Fenris. The fact that I can't say anything except that I am utterly indifferent to him shows quite clearly what I feel about him. A character that I feel almost nothing for is a bad one to me. Especially when I sympathized with his sister a lot more than him.
But to be fair to him, I found all DA2 companions like that, indifference inducing with different shades of annoying, with the exception of Aveline and Varric, followed by Anders (though he has his annoying bits).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2012 - 11:00 .

[alex90c]

a wild KnightofPhoenix has appeared!

where've you been man

[Heather Cline]

I don't like Fenris because he whines too much and is too much of a jerk towards my mage in the beginning of the game when you first meet him. Yeah he eventually see's that Hawke isn't like other mages but he still hates all mages over all and frankly I can't get past that.

As for Anders, whiny psychopathic mage who was cool in DA:A but got completely tooled in DA2. So yeah can't really like his character all that much either.

[KnightofPhoenix]

alex90c wrote...

a wild KnightofPhoenix has appeared!

where've you been man

Back in the days, people used to say I have a Morri-radar. I could detect and appear in any thread that mentionned Morrigan (and the ability to sense Morrigan mods and destroy them in my head). Looks like I still got it.

[TEWR]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

alex90c wrote...

a wild KnightofPhoenix has appeared!

where've you been man

Back in the days, people used to say I have a Morri-radar. I could detect and appear in any thread that mentionned Morrigan (and the ability to sense Morrigan mods and destroy them in my head). Looks like I still got it.

This... strangely applies to me and Merrill. In any thread that Merrill crops up in, I'm there to talk about Merrill.

[Zjarcal]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

alex90c wrote...

a wild KnightofPhoenix has appeared!

where've you been man

Back in the days, people used to say I have a Morri-radar. I could detect and appear in any thread that mentionned Morrigan (and the ability to sense Morrigan mods and destroy them in my head). Looks like I still got it.

LOL! I had forgotten about the Morri-radar. :lol:

[Mr.House]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Mr. House wrote...

He does not paint all mages with the same brush, a mage has to prove he is wrong about them to get his trust which Bethany and a magehawke do. Merrill and Anders do not, However he does not hate Merrill, he just finds her idiotic. He does however hate Anders and has good reasons to.

He paints them as all being untrustworthy until he can actually trust them, simply for being mages. He doesn't do this to Aveline or Warrior/Rogue Hawke or anyone else simply for being strangers. Because they're not mages, he can apparently trust them.

He even says that the mages will turn on Hawke.

"You harbor vipers in your midst. They'll turn on you and strike when you least expect. That is in its nature."

So yes, he does paint them all with the same brush. It isn't until someone goes "You know, this one is better with some red" that he admits he's wrong about painting that mage in that light.

He does not really trust anyone as he still keeps certain things about his past secret till later.

[Aeowyn]

Cultist wrote...

if fenris and anders were real

Yes, because comparing a fictional character to a disturbed killer who bombed a Government building, killing 8 people, and then chased and killed 69 teenagers and young adults in cold blood because they belonged to a certain youth party is definitely the right way to go......

Modifié par Aeowyn, 01 janvier 2012 - 11:18 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...
Yes, because comparing a fictional character to a disturbed killer who bombed a Government building, killing 8 people, and then chased and killed 69 teenagers and young adults in cold blood because they belonged to a certain youth party is definitely the right way to go......

I think there is validity in comparing the two, so long as it's done intelligently and responsibly. There are certainly a lot of similarities shared beween these two (wish I had MageAnders' manifesto so I can compare it to Anders'. That was one long read), alongside other extremists of their variety.

I see it as the same as comparing fictional characters with historical figures, which I think is more than fine and somehting I do a lot.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2012 - 11:27 .

[Aeowyn]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
Yes, because comparing a fictional character to a disturbed killer who bombed a Government building, killing 8 people, and then chased and killed 69 teenagers and young adults in cold blood because they belonged to a certain youth party is definitely the right way to go......

I think there is validity in comparing the two, so long as it's done intelligently and responsibly. There are certainly a lot of similarities shared beween these two (wish I had MageAnders' manifesto so I can compare it to Anders'. That was one long read), alongside other extremists of their variety.

I see it as the same as comparing fictional characters with historical figures, which I think is more than fine and somehting I do a lot.

A valid point, if it wasn't for the fact that the only reason they're compared to each other is because of their name and appearance. I highly doubt Mage Anders would've been compared to Norway-Anders if his name was Bjorn. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Aeowyn wrote...
A valid point, if it wasn't for the fact that the only reason they're compared to each other is because of their name and appearance. I highly doubt Mage Anders would've been compared to Norway-Anders if his name was Bjorn.

Perhaps the only reason for many who compare them, but that's not the case for everyone. I for instance would have still compared the two and I am sure others would have as well.
The name and appearance makes for a disturbing coincidence, but many do not compare them based on that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 01 janvier 2012 - 11:35 .

[Realmzmaster]

Writers and developers draw inspiration from a variety of sources. I agree with KnightofPhoenix that when done with intelligence and responsibility the comparison can be valid, but some sensitivity should also be used. If the same point can be reached without the comparison perhaps that would be the better way to discuss the issue.

I find Anders to be an interesting character. A kind of by any means necessary figure. Fenris has his counterparts in real life, some have a bit of justification for their attitudes like Fenris. Not agreeing with either, but I can see their motivations.

[Sylfschiffer]

(I'm talking for the post thread, don't mind me for those who debate '-')

To me, if a character brings so much hate or love, it's because it's a great character. It gives people great reactions, so they can immerse more in the game (if it's because of hating or fangirlism-wut-). I personally love both characters, because I understand their feelings a lot (not that I was a slave or such but you know >>). Being the victim of violence and racism is really something and the feeling to do something drastic about it is big. After living around a certain kind of people, bring hate and you don't seem to take it off you.

[Melca36]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...
A valid point, if it wasn't for the fact that the only reason they're compared to each other is because of their name and appearance. I highly doubt Mage Anders would've been compared to Norway-Anders if his name was Bjorn.

Perhaps the only reason for many who compare them, but that's not the case for everyone. I for instance would have still compared the two and I am sure others would have as well.
The name and appearance makes for a disturbing coincidence, but many do not compare them based on that.

First,

The person who posted the pic is a troll. Usually the moderators close or delete thse sort of threads.

Second,  The only reason he is compared was because of his name and resemblance which was a fluke.

It was a weird coincidence and that is all. 

[AngryFrozenWater]

Anders felt like a completely different character, that includes his voice and behavior. It's one of the many examples that BW doesn't care about continuity. To me Fenris isn't very sympathetic and his meeting felt forced. I went along with it, just to do his quests for XP and left him in his house after that.

I tried to like Merrill and went as far as to take her with me everywhere I went and did her romance stuff. I was not impressed. Again, she didn't sound or look like the Merrill from DA:O. Another example of BW's bad continuity.

I didn't like Aveline much. BW can't help that, because she simply clashes with my own personality. I did her quests once, but didn't bother with her again much in subsequent playthroughs.

Carver and Bethany were OK, but because they were missing for a large part of the game, I kept using others. I used Bethany when Anders was missing, though. If they were supposed to be family then the game did a poor job in bonding with those characters.

Again, BW did a bad job on Isabela's continuity. I would have believed it if I was told she was a different character from the one in the Pearl. She was just designed to attract an audience who fall for boobs.

Due to over exposure on the forums before the release I didn't like Varric and Isabela much. However, that changed once I played the game and they tuned out to be my favorite characters in the game.

To me Sebastian is the best portrayed companion in the game. His and and Elthina's interaction felt much like the characters from DA:O. The team that created the DLC probably had more time to give these two attention and it shows. You could interact with them at any time and they usually had something to say about the situations they were involved in. The grand cleric even had something to say about your past.

And that brings me to the interaction of the characters in general. Unlike the companions and main characters in DA:O (with the exception of Sebastian and Elthina), you could only talk to them when you were summoned to meet them by mail or when they were involved in a quest. In other situations they burped a one liner when you tried to talk to them. That also had its impact on romances. They felt shallow. I rather have the "I thought you would never ask" approach than the "I think that Sandal is watching me" one liner. All this made me feel more involved in DA:O than in DA2. DA2's characters felt shallow because of the new mechanism which felt designed to cut down interaction and reduce the cost.

Edited for clarity.

Modifié par AngryFrozenWater, 02 janvier 2012 - 09:26 .

[bEVEsthda]

I truly loathe Fenris.  Can't stand him.

(Normally, that's just fine. I would be horrified if the design goal was that everybody should like every character.)
But the sole reason I dislike Fenris, is that the character so much represents the disgusting taste in which the entire Dragon Age was remade in DA2. - And, O'boy, how I hate that! Poor Fenris then gets that by association.
I have no problem with Anders .
Just like the case with Merril, I did find his personal obsessions somewhat alarming, and tried to steer him off the more radical approach. Fundamentally though, my Hawke seem to have shared a basic confidence and trust, concerning Justice and Anders, with a certain Warden who relied a great deal on them, through difficult times.
My Hawke's Anders was still by her side in the end battle.