269 réponses à ce sujet

[jcainhaze]

Sylfschiffer wrote...

To me, if a character brings so much hate or love, it's because it's a great character..

So true

Modifié par jcainhaze, 02 janvier 2012 - 09:35 .

[bEVEsthda]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Anders felt like a completely different character, that includes his voice and behavior. It's one of the many examples that BW doesn't care about continuity. To me Fenris isn't very sympathetic and his meeting felt forced. I went along with it, just to do his quests for XP and left him in his house after that.

I tried to like Merrill and went as far as to take her with me everywhere I went and did her romance stuff. I was not impressed. Again, she didn't sound or look like the Merrill from DA:O. Another example of BW's bad continuity.

I didn't like Aveline much. BW can't help that, because she simply clashes with my own personality. I did her quests once, but didn't bother with her again much in subsequent playthroughs.

Carver and Bethany were OK, but because they were missing for a large part of the game, I kept using others. I used Bethany when Anders was missing, though. If they were supposed to be family then the game did a poor job in bonding with those characters.

Again, BW did a bad job on Isabela's continuity. I would have believed it if I was told she was a different character from the one in the Pearl. She was just designed to attract an audience who fall for boobs.

Due to over exposure on the forums before the release I didn't like Varric and Isabela much. However, that changed once I played the game and they tuned out to be my favorite characters in the game.

To me Sebastian is the best portrayed companion in the game. His and and Elthina's interaction felt much like the characters from DA:O. The team that created the DLC probably had more time to give these two attention and it shows. You could interact with them at any time and they usually had something to say about the situations they were involved in. The grand cleric even had something to say about your past.

And that brings me to the interaction of the characters in general. Unlike the companions and main characters in DA:O (with the exception of Sebastian and Elthina), you could only talk to them when you were summoned to meet them by mail or when they were involved in a quest. In other situations they burped a one liner when you tried to talk to them. That also had its impact on romances. They felt shallow. I rather have the "I thought you would never ask" approach than the "I think that Sandal is watching me" one liner. All this made me feel more involved in DA:O than in DA2. DA2's characters felt shallow because of the new mechanism which felt designed to cut down interaction and reduce the cost.

Edited for clarity.

I agree with most. But I don't see it as that Bioware have failed with continuity. I see all the silly changes to characters as intentional. Intentional changes to satisfy a different taste. A game that tries to be 'fun' and 'kewl', and yes - a childish taste, and doesn't take itself seriously anymore. In stark contrast with TW2, but also DA:O and TES V: Skyrim. What we see in DA2's "new direction" is how EA marketing perceive gamers.

[shadowman019]

I don't have much of a problem with Fenris. I mean, sure, he's a bunch of anime cliches wrapped into one, but, I dunno, he kind of grew on me.

Anders, on the other hand...

My problem with him in Dragon Age II was the major personality overhaul Hepler gave him. Back in Awakening, he was basically Alistair, but more of an ass. But with the second game, he's a mopey and outright ****y pastiche of the Spectre. What really irks me is how he's turned into a burgeoning homosexual who'll hate your guts just because you won't sleep with him. Sure, his sexuality was hinted at in Awakening, but it was subtle and not-so much a major part of his character. Bascially, my problem is just dropping the ball with writing and character development.

Modifié par shadowman019, 02 janvier 2012 - 09:42 .

[alex90c]

jcainhaze wrote...

Sylfschiffer wrote...

To me, if a character brings so much hate or love, it's because it's a great character..

So true

Not really. I'm finding the Final Fantasy 13 cast annoying as hell (minus Lightning) but that doesn't mean they're good characters at all. 

[KJandrew]

Because I don't get a choice, they are with me for nearly the entire game and repeatedly come and talk to me about it. I could understand having characters i don't like in Origins as it all takes place in a year and you know the blight kinds of makes the situation desperate but these guys are with me 8 or 7 years, why am I still friends with them?

[Brockololly]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Anders felt like a completely different character, that includes his voice and behavior. It's one of the many examples that BW doesn't care about continuity.

Yup, Anders' character concept for DA2 is interesting, merging with Justice and all, but the execution of it is lacking. Thats my issue with most of DA2 really. As it is, Anders as he exists in DA2 is from the start too different than he was in Awakening to even seem like the same character. At minimum, they needed to have him normal at the start and have his joining with Justice happen on screen since its arguably the most important moment in his entire life and would make for a more compelling character arc showing his transformation from how he was in Awakening to the end of DA2. Show, don't tell.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
I tried to like Merrill and went as far as to take her with me everywhere I went and did her romance stuff. I was not impressed. Again, she didn't sound or look like the Merrill from DA:O. Another example of BW's bad continuity.

Even if DAO Merrill was a fairly small role, her DA2 ditzy attitude is nothing like Origins. In Origins she was kind of like a bossy, big sister type. Now maybe thats due to the change in perspectives from Warden to Hawke, but  its still too far of a stretch.  Again, she may as well have been a different character entirely.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
If they were supposed to be family then the game did a poor job in bonding with those characters.

Yup, considering how BioWare made a big deal about family leading up to DA2, they really botched it. Certainly the intro didn't help matters, killing off a sibling right off the bat, then just killing off or disposing of your other family members later on. The Couslands were a much more effective and emotionally engaging look at a family in DA than the Hawkes, IMO.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
To me Sebastian is the best portrayed companion in the game. His and and Elthina's interaction felt much like the characters from DA:O. The team that created the DLC probably had more time to give these two attention and it shows. You could interact with them at any time and they usually had something to say about the situations they were involved in. The grand cleric even had something to say about your past.

Agreed- being able to click on Elthina and talk to her whenever and initiate conversations was such a nice surprise.

AngryFrozenWater wrote...
And that brings me to the interaction of the characters in general. Unlike the companions and main characters in DA:O (with the exception of Sebastian and Elthina), you could only talk to them when you were summoned to meet them by mail or when they were involved in a quest. In other situations they burped a one liner when you tried to talk to them. That also had its impact on romances. They felt shallow. I rather have the "I thought you would never ask" approach than the "I think that Sandal is watching me" one liner. All this made me feel more involved in DA:O than in DA2. DA2's characters felt shallow because of the new mechanism which felt designed to cut down interaction and reduce the cost.

Bingo. And the time jumps due to the faulty execution of the framed narrative made character interactions and character development feel even more disjointed and unengaging. Especially with the romances.

[TEWR]

AngryFrozenWater wrote...

Anders felt like a completely different character, that includes his voice and behavior. It's one of the many examples that BW doesn't care about continuity. To me Fenris isn't very sympathetic and his meeting felt forced. I went along with it, just to do his quests for XP and left him in his house after that.

I think part of why people had such a problem with Anders' personality shift was the lack of a banter in Awakening that showed Anders' personality changing.

Me? I had no problem with it.

I mean, you can certainly see through banter with Anders/Justice and the Justice/Nathaniel banter that Bioware may have been hinting about doing this to Anders, but what it does more is show that Bioware had more of a plan for Justice.

All people really needed methinks is just one banter where he starts to ask Justice about how he could even free the mages when he's just one man, and Justice tells him to inspire the other mages to fight back. That would've been sufficient methinks.

Personally, while I like the general concept of DAII Anders and the character itself, I dislike how the story handled him, the Mage Underground, and Justice.

I mean, I wanted to see more Justice.

I tried to like Merrill and went as far as to take her with me everywhere I went and did her romance stuff. I was not impressed. Again, she didn't sound or look like the Merrill from DA:O. Another example of BW's bad continuity.

Honestly, I found it hard to gauge the extent of DAO Merrill's personality. But despite what others think, DAII Merrill is a very smart woman. Not just in the arcane, but in the philosophical and the historical.

Carver and Bethany were OK, but because they were missing for a large part of the game, I kept using others. I used Bethany when Anders was missing, though. If they were supposed to be family then the game did a poor job in bonding with those characters.

Especially when the game forces you to metagame in order to care about the sibling that died. The sibling death in the beginning is one of the things I found to be incredibly stupid about DAII's story.

I agree that Bioware handled the family aspect poorly. I felt more of a connection to Trian in the Dwarven Noble origin than I did to Carver when the Ogre wanted to use him as a drumstick.

You can't just say "Here's your family, now care about them dammit!" and expect the people playing to do so. I think what's worse is in fact that because I don't care about the siblings when they die, the dialogue option I picked just doesn't feel right to me.

I want to feel bad, but I don't know this person enough to feel sad.

Again, BW did a bad job on Isabela's continuity. I would have believed it if I was told she was a different character from the one in the Pearl. She was just designed to attract an audience who fall for boobs.

Eh.... maybe some people went for that at first. But I think the majority of Isabela fans just found her to be an interesting character and wanted to find out more about her.

And that brings me to the interaction of the characters in general. Unlike the companions and main characters in DA:O (with the exception of Sebastian and Elthina), you could only talk to them when you were summoned to meet them by mail or when they were involved in a quest. In other situations they burped a one liner when you tried to talk to them. That also had its impact on romances. They felt shallow. I rather have the "I thought you would never ask" approach than the "I think that Sandal is watching me" one liner. All this made me feel more involved in DA:O than in DA2. DA2's characters felt shallow because of the new mechanism which felt designed to cut down interaction and reduce the cost.

Edited for clarity.

Well, to be fair dialogue in DAII dealing with the companions and not dialogue that was a lore dump is slightly more than DAO.

But that right there is the problem. As DAII is spanning a much larger time frame there needs to be more interaction with the companions. Not "slightly more". A helluva lot more.

EDIT: Though I didn't find the Merrill romance to be shallow, nor was I lacking a connection to the companions. I just agree more interaction with them should've been present.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 janvier 2012 - 03:25 .

[PinkShoes]

Cause they are both annoying.

I liked them both but they were really annoying i can understand why they get hate.

[I Ryukage I]

I never really do romances in my games, so I cant speak for them. But I did find it kind of hard to like the DA2 cast. The Couslands from DA:O, although that storyline was probably the most cliche, it was so well done that it didn't feel tedious to go through. My heart wrenched at some of the events in that Origin story, you could just "feel" it as opposed to what happens in DA2.

Upon hearing how the game takes place over a decade (well really only 7 years for the player), I thought this one would definitely be long and engaging, getting deep with the characters, but as many said it could have honestly happened over a few months.

Early on I liked Aveline, after the whole end of Act 2 though, her reaction to what happened kind of turned me off if thats going on in her order. The fact that she wasn't involved as much, or that the guard became worse idk.

Varric I think I liked for the most part. Merril was much different from DA:O, she was meh to me.... along with Fenris (love his theme music), but from what I remember (only played DA2 through once) meh. Anders is much different, I agree his transformation should have probably happened onscreen, would have made it more dramatic and deep. I dislike him. Isa was fine, funny with most other team combos.

Who else was there.. Sebastion I barely used him so can't comment, the family, just didnt feel as close as they should have been...

From origins, I may have had my dislikes off and on, but they were all, I think, likable, it was fun. Sten is my favorite from DA:O. I think when making things like this, there should be some kind of balance, with likable, edgy, overbearing, etc. type personalities all mixed in.

Eh whatever.

[alex90c]

Honestly, I found it hard to gauge the extent of DAO Merrill's personality. But despite what others think, DAII Merrill is a very smart woman. Not just in the arcane, but in the philosophical and the historical

So smart she thinks getting mugged is "the alienage greeting".

I also have no idea how she is philosophically smart either.

Modifié par alex90c, 02 janvier 2012 - 07:04 .

[Atakuma]

because they are both abrasive ass hats.

Modifié par Atakuma, 02 janvier 2012 - 07:15 .

[Atakuma]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Honestly, I found it hard to gauge the extent of DAO Merrill's personality. But despite what others think, DAII Merrill is a very smart woman. Not just in the arcane, but in the philosophical and the historical

So smart she thinks getting mugged is "the alienage greeting".

I also have no idea how she is philosophically smart either.

True. She's just naive and dumb. Couldn't stand her change of personality. I also felt Isabela's change of appearance to be misplaced. She's nothing like the Isabela from DA:O. Just a walking pair of boobs. 

She has the same skin and hair color and that's all she needed because making her look like the generic NPC she was in Origins would be stupid.

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...

Honestly, I found it hard to gauge the extent of DAO Merrill's personality. But despite what others think, DAII Merrill is a very smart woman. Not just in the arcane, but in the philosophical and the historical

So smart she thinks getting mugged is "the alienage greeting".

That's in Act 1 and hardly indicative of her growth in the entire game.

I also have no idea how she is philosophically smart either.

The banter with Anders regarding the certainty and lack thereof regarding things happening in the world:

• Merrill: You really believe don't you?
  
• Anders: What are we talking about?
  
• Merrill: Believing. You do I can tell, in freedom, in mages, in good spirits and bad templars. With more fire than the sun.
  
• Anders: And your point is?
  
• Merrill: I miss it sometimes, things being certain.
  
• Anders: Some things are certain.
  
• Merrill: Not anymore.

Philosophy --  the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.

This banter fits the definition very well.

This one instance is enough to show that she's smarter than people make her out to be, as people constantly paint her as dumb.

As I said a couple pages back, I for one would like to see more philosophical and astute Merrill in banter as well as cute Merrill. Half the time, I think that after Act 1 Merrill just puts on the cute act as a facade because that allows her to mess with people, because that's kinda what everyone expects her to do now.

But underneath it all lies a woman that is smarter than people think.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 janvier 2012 - 07:43 .

[TEWR]

For further evidence of Merrill being smarter than people give her credit for:

Aveline: I didn't expect you to stick around for this mess Merrill. This has nothing to do with your elves.
Merrill: Everything affects everything. We were born, a bunch of things happened, and now we're in a mess with our friends.
Aveline: That seems too simple.
Merrill: Simple is good. It sneaks up on you, makes you smile.
Merrill: Maybe that should be enough once in a while.
Aveline: Simple it is.


If heard after A New Path is completed:

Merrill: Simple is good. It sneaks up on you, makes you smile.
Merrill: Or it says "Hey over there!" And gets you with a sharp pin.
Aveline: Merrill?
Merrill: Simple Aveline, not stupid.

[alex90c]

That's in Act 1 and hardly indicative of her growth in the entire game.

Because it takes 3-6 years for someone to realise that being mugged is not a greeting. God, how can you actually excuse something as retarded as that.

HERPDERP DEY GOT MUGGED HURRRR Y CANT I BE MUGGED HURRRR

Merrill: You really believe don't you?

Anders: What are we talking about?

Merrill: Believing. You do I can tell, in freedom, in mages, in good spirits and bad templars. With more fire than the sun.

Anders: And your point is?

Merrill: I miss it sometimes, things being certain.

Anders: Some things are certain.
[*]Merrill: Not anymore.

I have no idea how that is philosophical.

"you believe in freedom?"
"yeah"
"cool"

Yeah, right.

I study philosophy and ethics myself at the moment, and I'm sorry, that stuff you've just quoted isn't really on the same level. The whole "I miss it sometimes, things being certain" might sound philosophical to you, but it's not at all, it's just Merrill saying something broadly, and most importantly, wrong.

I wish I had enough faith to believe Merrill was putting the whole ****** act for seven years straight as a facade, but I just don't.

[alex90c]

Aveline: I didn't expect you to stick around for this mess Merrill. This has nothing to do with your elves.
Merrill: Everything affects everything. We were born, a bunch of things happened, and now we're in a mess with our friends.
Aveline: That seems too simple.
Merrill: Simple is good. It sneaks up on you, makes you smile.
Merrill: Maybe that should be enough once in a while.
Aveline: Simple it is.


If heard after A New Path is completed:

Merrill: Simple is good. It sneaks up on you, makes you smile.
Merrill: Or it says "Hey over there!" And gets you with a sharp pin.
Aveline: Merrill?
Merrill: Simple Aveline, not stupid.

"simple is good" reveals to us that she is an intelligent character? RIGHT.

[FlyinElk212]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

As I said a couple pages back, I for one would like to see more philosophical and astute Merrill in banter as well as cute Merrill. Half the time, I think Merrill just puts on the cute act as a facade because that allows her to mess with people.

And THERE lies the major problem with some of the DA2 party members. Too often they're this one-dimensional character constantly spouting off their own agenda. Merrill is too often cutely oblivious. Fenris is too often angry at mages. Anders is too often blabbing about mage liberation.

It's when characters start looking inward, and react and change according to the world around them, that they start becoming CHARACTERS and not walking billboards for the story's plot. Anders and Fenris get a bad rap from people because over half of their content and dialogue is dedicated to pushing PRO-MAGE! or PRO-TEMPLAR! Instead of becoming real people, they're a gameplay mechanic, a soundboard for whether or not we'll choose Mage or Templar at the end of the game.

Characters like Varric, Aveline, and Isabela are multilayered and nuanced. They react and change according to the story's direction and actions made by Hawke. Their opinions are not an end-all and they by no means constantly push one feeling or belief on us all the time-- they're people.

You CAN'T say the same for Anders and Fenris, who, while at times show glimpses of a personality other than their searing hatred for their opposing parties, remain static no matter what decisions you make. This problem of being a "one-trick pony" character semi applies to Merrill as well, who too often is depicted as simply a cute moron who's oblivious to everything.

Modifié par FlyinElk212, 02 janvier 2012 - 07:53 .

[Sylvianus]

Half the time, I think Merrill just puts on the cute act as a facade because that allows her to mess with people.

But why is she doing that then ? What is the point of appearing stupid ? The motivation ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 janvier 2012 - 08:05 .

[eroeru]

Merrill could indeed be a character who's quite sensitive, but has been through a lot of ****... this can make even the smartest of persons clinge towards naivete and child-like mind-set, though retaining the truth in the back of her head. It's irony of sorts. It's a way out of a depressed state - make-belief and resurrection of a burnt-out mind...

Modifié par eroeru, 02 janvier 2012 - 08:03 .

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...


Because it takes 3-6 years for someone to realise that being mugged is not a greeting. God, how can you actually excuse something as retarded as that.

HERPDERP DEY GOT MUGGED HURRRR Y CANT I BE MUGGED HURRRR

I never said I excused it. But you're using that as evidence that she's an idiot throughout the whole game, which was what I was disputing.

I have no idea how that is philosophical.

I study philosophy and ethics myself at the moment, and I'm sorry, that stuff you've just quoted isn't really on the same level. The whole "I miss it sometimes, things being certain" might sound philosophical to you, but it's not at all, it's just Merrill saying something broadly, and most importantly, wrong.

Not everything is certain, so no she isn't wrong. Certainty implies that you can easily discern what is the right course of action.

To use something you talked about days ago, the King of Orzammar decision and the Anvil of the Void.

You found that decision to be one that wasn't so cut and dry. To you, it wasn't certain who should take the throne.

The same thing applies to the Mage-Templar debate and Merrill's own doubts. She's now beginning to doubt herself and quite possibly whether mages should be free. I'm fairly certain that some part of her feels guilty for what happened when she shouldn't.

I wish I had enough faith to believe Merrill was putting the whole ****** act for seven years straight as a facade, but I just don't.

I edited my post to say after Act 1 I believe it was mostly a facade.

Sylvianus wrote...

But why is she doing that then ? What is the point of appearing stupid ? The motivation ?

She likes to see peoples' reactions to it and laughs at it on the inside? That's what I'd do.

eroeru wrote...

Merrill could indeed be a character who's quite sensitive, but has been through a lot of ****... this can make even the smartest of persons clinge towards naivete and child-like mind-set, though retaining the truth in the back of her head. It's irony of sorts. It's a way out of a depressed state - make-belief and resurrection of a burnt-out mind...

That's a good way to put it. All the years we see her something horrific happens to her, and this isn't made any easier by the condemnation and scorn she receives from Anders and Fenris.

I can definitely see her just wanting to be a child again because back then, nothing went wrong. That happened to be what I felt when I went through depression a couple years ago.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 janvier 2012 - 08:14 .

[LinksOcarina]

shadowman019 wrote...

I don't have much of a problem with Fenris. I mean, sure, he's a bunch of anime cliches wrapped into one, but, I dunno, he kind of grew on me.

Anders, on the other hand...

My problem with him in Dragon Age II was the major personality overhaul Hepler gave him. Back in Awakening, he was basically Alistair, but more of an ass. But with the second game, he's a mopey and outright ****y pastiche of the Spectre. What really irks me is how he's turned into a burgeoning homosexual who'll hate your guts just because you won't sleep with him. Sure, his sexuality was hinted at in Awakening, but it was subtle and not-so much a major part of his character. Bascially, my problem is just dropping the ball with writing and character development.

I disagree.

In fact, if anything the personality overhaul was hinted at in transition between the games. We need to remember that Anders is not the same person he was in Awakenings because of two factors; the first is the fact that was a conscripted Grey Warden. The second, because of Justice. 

Firstly, he hinted at the fact that he would run away from the Grey Wardens when he could, despite making him a friend and all of that, a majority of the epilogues find him dead (which they actually mention in Dragon Age II) or not returning to the Grey Wardens after a period of time. We also need to keep in mind his persona then; he was carefree because he valued freedom and nothing else. Justice in fact called him out on it, if you recall, that he is doing a great injustice by not helping other mages at the time, to which Anders only retort was death is also a possability, something he didn't want.

Anders admits that he avoided his oppression, and Justice points out that he can't avoid it forever. He says that Anders is free, and should act to help them. Anders is apathetic towards other mages though because he is more self-centered that way about whats he wants, what he desires. He even says at one point that breaking from the Chantry is a bad idea to Wynne, because that won't solve anything in the process. This is Anders and his apathy, he was always a selfish character in this way.

Ironically enough, the banter in Awakening foreshadows what both Anders and Justice become, because Anders was also acting on his own convictions, without Justice/Vengance in him. When they merged, they both changed. 

We see  the personification of Anders' true desires basically. He begins to shed his selfish characreristics into a more selfless one, but he goes to the extreme very quickly because of what Vengance made him. To put it another way, Anders is still the same person, but because of Vengance, he now has conviction, has a "self-righteous" streak in him, and is even hypocritical to the point where he can't control himself anymore. This is basically a battle of control that he will ultimately lose, in the end. This is why he is so fascinating. They built him up in two games, and the changes were natural because of what Bioware decided to do with him. They personified the struggle of what he went through to the point of fanatical extremism. 

Love him or hate him, that is a good character right there. 

ETA:

Some people above mentioned how Anders was handled in Dragon Age II. Honestly, I thought it was tasteful. It was a gradual transformation over seven years; we see the seeds of it throughout, so the change is not abrupt and what he did, while deplorable in many respects, was not out of left field. Point being, the response ot Anders is more of one I think about fustration over what he did, over what his character is like. Hell, I did a whole article about this on the site I work for, and I know some of you read it already. That is really what we are all looking at and some people judged the character soley based on that, not on the gradual changes. over time.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 02 janvier 2012 - 08:17 .

[Clover Rider]

 They took my car! the jerks!<_<

[Sylvianus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

But why is she doing that then ? What is the point of appearing stupid ? The motivation ?

She likes to see peoples' reactions to it and laughs at it on the inside? That's what I'd do.

Sorry but that does not explain why she wants to do that. To laugh at other people, at her detriment, especially when we consider that she is socially awkward and that she is even aware that she may seem strange, and apologizes for that. (First meeting with her ) Why would she laugh at other at her expense ? Is she sado mazo. It's totally stupid too.

I don't know, she could have a good reason. For example, like  those who were already taken for fools, decided to play stupid, because it amused them, because they like to be under estimated, .. Because it makes people laugh when they do it;

Merrill has always been alone and the other didn't care about her. What motivation would she have to look stupid in the middle of individuals to who she seems a little intimidated ? Just for fun to see the reaction of others, without any basis, no specific reason that explains this ? It makes no sense.

No, I think it's a real personality trait.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 janvier 2012 - 08:37 .