269 réponses à ce sujet

[Rawgrim]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

So that means Gears of War is an rpg too... Yeah, right.

Check the above, I had to edit it to make it more clear. You neglect progression of characters via level ups and degrees of choice, via dialogue, weaponry, items, classes, all the mechanics that make the game more strategic like that to tailor to ones playstyle. 

thats what separates it. So find a better analogy.

The only thing Gears is missing from that list is Level up (allthough you do gain levels when playing online), and choice via dialogue. Skyrim is lacking classes though, does that mean its also not an rpg? Alot of rpgs don`t have level up either.

[alex90c]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*Sigh*

I loathe to talk too much about my own personal experiences in an attempt to defend Merrill -- I actually don't know what to think about my doing this. Seems kinda weird to do so -- but... well... here goes.

A couple years back my life was falling apart. Nothing was going right. Every time I tried to do something good it would just go to hell in a handbasket. My family was going bankrupt, I had to pick up a job just to help either pay the bills or help get myself through an expensive high school, and all the while I couldn't devote enough time to my studies.

I would work at 5:30 p.m to 9-30 p.m, only to get home around 10:15 p.m and finish my homework around 3:00 a.m. If I was lucky, I'd get about 3 hours of sleep, but I would always end up falling asleep in my classes anyway.

Eventually, I found out my mom had a relapse of cancer. I couldn't handle this on top of everything else. I just sort of... broke. I had always used jokes as a defense mechanism, but after finding this out I used them in almost every situation and I had reverted to the mentality of a child. I'm a smart person -- I've often been told such by friends and family -- but after this I just couldn't deal with anything. I just wanted to act like a child again because back then, I didn't have to deal with what I was currently dealing with at that time.

I didn't really let anyone know what was going on. I would just crack jokes or say stupid things like those a child might say because... I wasn't really there anymore. Even though I knew what was happening -- and indeed there were moments where the real me came out -- I had pushed that part of me to the back of my mind.

"Don't acknowledge it", I said. "It might just turn out to all be a bad dream".

Merrill's a similar case. I imagine her time in the clan from the age of 4 to the time she found the Eluvian shard was a time she could enjoy, even if she didn't have many real friends in the Alienage.

But when we meet her, she's suffering horrific incident after another when all she's trying to do is something good. Something to fix their problems.

When we meet her, the clan is pissed at her for not only keeping the Eluvian shard but for taking up blood magic to cleanse the shard of its taint (and it worked to). So that's one bad instance. When she left, this was probably the breaking point for her just as my mom's relapse was the one for me. Just look at her eyes when she's leaving. They're sad and almost at the point of despair.

3 years later we find out the clan is against her because of Marethari's slander against Merrill and Merrill witnesses Pol being more afraid of her than of a crazed Varterral that's already killed 3 hunters. Merrill hasn't killed anyone ever but the Varterral has, and Pol ran right into its lair.

That's another traumatizing instance for her.

Finally, there's Marethari's needless and idiotic sacrifice. Marethari was pretty much the mother-figure in the clan to Merrill.

Everything Merrill did was to try and fix the problems their clan and their culture was currently in. But it all went to hell in a handbasket because of the clan itself.

Merrill's cuteness seems to be a coping mechanism for what traumatizing instances she's witnessed.

I think that's maybe why I enjoy her character so much more than the other romances. Because even if I never realized it consciously, subconsciously I knew just what she was going through because I went through a similar scenario myself. Minus the blood magic, demons, and Elven nature of things obviously.

It's only through eroeru's post that I even began to think that might have been why.

So when you were going through that, you came out with things similar to the things I quoted Merrill saying in DA2? as in, not just slightly similar, but things actually to the extent of "your feet didn't do anything"?

just wondering. though while I haven't had it [I[that[/I] hard, I do feel for ya, a few years back I was just getting so frustrated with my mum that I found when around friends and we'd discuss her I'd crack jokes but it would be more of a facade so I wouldn't have to show how I really felt. probably why I liked Alistair in DA:O to be honest, I mean things went to sh*t for him with the whole Grey Wardens getting annihilated at Ostagar and he'd just crack funny jokes in order to conceal how he truly felt, which we'd learn about in his moments of vulnerability. think I romanced himw ith my femwardens more than I romanced any other character, and I'm not even gay or anything. 

[LinksOcarina]

See now you are trying to oversimplify it.

Skyrim is an RPG for different reasons really. It is a Dungeon Crawler type so the fluid classes is part of the design. But they do have something else that makes up for it. For Skyrim, its the experience of leveling up, exploration, the setting, the character builds, finding loot and so forth.

Gears is missing more than just level ups, its missing classes, character choice, and so forth. It doesn't follow the genre because most games now have a self-contained story to them. My point is RPGS have been doing this, but better, since the 1980s, other genres are just catching up to it. But from a mechanical level, story progression, character interaction, level-up systems, exploration, etc, are tenants of an RPG. You don't need all of it to be one, but you need enough of it to make it one. So it becomes a choice really on what YOU classify as an RPG.

If you want to do that be my guest, in the end the term JRPG is still wrong, because it categorizes nothing substantial except superficial looks, and colorizes impression of a game before you play it. So stop grasping at straws, and the wrong part of the argument.

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 02 janvier 2012 - 10:02 .

[Clover Rider]

alex90c wrote...

Some Geth wrote...

Gen. Grievous wrote...

I certainly think so...

No.

And alex90c she is not really stupid, well she is and she isn't, like she can be stupid about small things no really cares about but when it comes to the big stuff? no she is far from stupid.

"small things" like blood magic?

"grrr merrill, blood magic comes from demons, you used that magic to bypass that barrier"

"WHAT THE HELL GUYS ITS ONLY BLOOD MAGIC IT WONT DO ANYTHING"

yeah w/e merrill, go die in a fire

That is not being stupid, that is just a view on Blood Magic nothing wrong with that.

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...


So when you were going through that, you came out with things similar to the things I quoted Merrill saying in DA2? as in, not just slightly similar, but things actually to the extent of "your feet didn't do anything"?

Yea I'd end up saying some really stupid **** sometimes.

I'd also crack jokes to conceal what was going on, but there would be some moments where I'd say some really stupid ****.

Merrill's the same way I think. While some things she says may sound stupid, it's not a reflection on her actual intelligence.

just wondering. though while I haven't had it [I[that[/I] hard, I do feel for ya, a few years back I was just getting so frustrated with my mum that I found when around friends and we'd discuss her I'd crack jokes but it would be more of a facade so I wouldn't have to show how I really felt. probably why I liked Alistair in DA:O to be honest, I mean things went to sh*t for him with the whole Grey Wardens getting annihilated at Ostagar and he'd just crack funny jokes in order to conceal how he truly felt, which we'd learn about in his moments of vulnerability. think I romanced himw ith my femwardens more than I romanced any other character, and I'm not even gay or anything. 

Exactly. I would crack jokes just to hide what was really going on inside my head.

As for Alistair, I only did the romance once with a Female Cousland. I just didn't like how the women moved in DAO so I couldn't really play one after that.

Also, I always spare Loghain so that kinda trashes the romance.

[Rawgrim]

LinksOcarina wrote...

See now you are trying to oversimplify it.

Skyrim is an RPG for different reasons really. It is a Dungeon Crawler type so the fluid classes is part of the design. But they do have something else that makes up for it. For Skyrim, its the experience of leveling up, exploration, the setting, the character builds, finding loot and so forth.

Gears is missing more than just level ups, its missing classes, character choice, and so forth. It doesn't follow the genre because most games now have a self-contained story to them. My point is RPGS have been doing this, but better, since the 1980s, other genres are just catching up to it. But from a mechanical level, story progression, character interaction, level-up systems, exploration, etc, are tenants of an RPG. You don't need all of it to be one, but you need enough of it to make it one. So it becomes a choice really on what YOU classify as an RPG.

If you want to do that be my guest, in the end the term JRPG is still wrong, because it categorizes nothing substantial except superficial looks, and colorizes impression of a game before you play it. So stop grasping at straws, and the wrong part of the argument.

Betrayal at Krondor. Game of the year in 93, and also one of the best recieved rpgs to this date. It has 0 classes, no level up (skills increases by use), you can`t change the story through dialogue either. just naming an example.

A jrpg = a roleplaying game made in japan. Plain and simple. If you google JRPG, thats what you will find.

[alex90c]

Yea I'd end up saying some really stupid **** sometimes.

I'd also crack jokes to conceal what was going on, but there would be some moments where I'd say some really stupid ****.

Merrill's the same way I think. While some things she says may sound stupid, it's not a reflection on her actual intelligence.

There we go. You may have had childish moments but it wasn't consistently.

I've got to say though, her VA really doesn't do her any favours. I think the voice actually amplifies the effect of some of the stupid things she comes out with, it's a bit like how some guy I know who I have history classes with sounds pretty dumb so when he came out with something stupid about a month ago it just sounded really dumb.

Exactly. I would crack jokes just to hide what was really going on inside my head.

As for Alistair, I only did the romance once with a Female Cousland. I just didn't like how the women moved in DAO so I couldn't really play one after that.

Also, I always spare Loghain so that kinda trashes the romance.

Okay, now that is one decision I always have trouble with in DA:O. Alistair's an awesome character, but seriously, I love Loghain. He's a game antagonist who I absolutely 100% empathise with, and while what he did was quite dubious, I can understand fully why he did it, and the Landsmeet is always tough as hell to play through. So far I think I've saved him in either 2 or 3 of my 6 playthroughs.

[LinksOcarina]

Rawgrim wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

See now you are trying to oversimplify it.

Skyrim is an RPG for different reasons really. It is a Dungeon Crawler type so the fluid classes is part of the design. But they do have something else that makes up for it. For Skyrim, its the experience of leveling up, exploration, the setting, the character builds, finding loot and so forth.

Gears is missing more than just level ups, its missing classes, character choice, and so forth. It doesn't follow the genre because most games now have a self-contained story to them. My point is RPGS have been doing this, but better, since the 1980s, other genres are just catching up to it. But from a mechanical level, story progression, character interaction, level-up systems, exploration, etc, are tenants of an RPG. You don't need all of it to be one, but you need enough of it to make it one. So it becomes a choice really on what YOU classify as an RPG.

If you want to do that be my guest, in the end the term JRPG is still wrong, because it categorizes nothing substantial except superficial looks, and colorizes impression of a game before you play it. So stop grasping at straws, and the wrong part of the argument.

Betrayal at Krondor. Game of the year in 93, and also one of the best recieved rpgs to this date. It has 0 classes, no level up (skills increases by use), you can`t change the story through dialogue either. just naming an example.

A jrpg = a roleplaying game made in japan. Plain and simple. If you google JRPG, thats what you will find.

And your point is what? It still follows a lot of the tropes; varying races, character interaction and character progression, use of items and changing items to meet the needs of the characters, following a storyline and a TURN BASED COMBAT SYSTEM. 

Must be a JRPG then. 

a JRPG does not denote ****. In the end, you are still wrong. Like google is.

[Rawgrim]

LinksOcarina wrote...

Rawgrim wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

See now you are trying to oversimplify it.

Skyrim is an RPG for different reasons really. It is a Dungeon Crawler type so the fluid classes is part of the design. But they do have something else that makes up for it. For Skyrim, its the experience of leveling up, exploration, the setting, the character builds, finding loot and so forth.

Gears is missing more than just level ups, its missing classes, character choice, and so forth. It doesn't follow the genre because most games now have a self-contained story to them. My point is RPGS have been doing this, but better, since the 1980s, other genres are just catching up to it. But from a mechanical level, story progression, character interaction, level-up systems, exploration, etc, are tenants of an RPG. You don't need all of it to be one, but you need enough of it to make it one. So it becomes a choice really on what YOU classify as an RPG.

If you want to do that be my guest, in the end the term JRPG is still wrong, because it categorizes nothing substantial except superficial looks, and colorizes impression of a game before you play it. So stop grasping at straws, and the wrong part of the argument.

Betrayal at Krondor. Game of the year in 93, and also one of the best recieved rpgs to this date. It has 0 classes, no level up (skills increases by use), you can`t change the story through dialogue either. just naming an example.

A jrpg = a roleplaying game made in japan. Plain and simple. If you google JRPG, thats what you will find.

And your point is what? It still follows a lot of the tropes; varying races, character interaction and character progression, use of items and changing items to meet the needs of the characters, following a storyline and a TURN BASED COMBAT SYSTEM. 

Must be a JRPG then. 

a JRPG does not denote ****. In the end, you are still wrong. Like google is.

Yeah...everyone and everything is wrong, except for the anime fan-boy.

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...


There we go. You may have had childish moments but it wasn't consistently.

Merrill didn't consistently make childish comments either. More than I did I'll grant, but not consistently either.

I've got to say though, her VA really doesn't do her any favours. I think the voice actually amplifies the effect of some of the stupid things she comes out with, it's a bit like how some guy I know who I have history classes with sounds pretty dumb so when he came out with something stupid about a month ago it just sounded really dumb.

I don't know, I liked Eve Myles' voice and thought that it did work wonders for Merrill. Opinions differ though.



[

Okay, now that is one decision I always have trouble with in DA:O. Alistair's an awesome character, but seriously, I love Loghain. He's a game antagonist who I absolutely 100% empathise with, and while what he did was quite dubious, I can understand fully why he did it, and the Landsmeet is always tough as hell to play through. So far I think I've saved him in either 2 or 3 of my 6 playthroughs.

I always spare him for a few reasons:

1) I empathise with him as well, even if I don't condone how he went about doing what he did. I can understand the fear and hatred he held towards Orlais.
2) More Grey Wardens = better chance at killing the Archdemon
3) Alistair still ends up fighting, but as a King and not as a Grey Warden. Talking to Eamon had him say that Alistair insisted on going. Though I also could've sworn there was something about him doing kingly things
4) Alistair ends up being friends with the Warden again eventually, so it all works out
5) If Orlais invades Ferelden again, I demand to see a scene where Loghain flips a table and punches a few Chevaliers (kudos to Dave of Canada for that awesome mental image)

[LinksOcarina]

Rawgrim wrote...

Yeah...everyone and everything is wrong, except for the anime fan-boy.

Ahh..were resorting to insults. That means you have no legs to stand on anymore.

And for the record, I have a passing interest in anime. Avatar is a good show.

Back on topic...

yeah, Fenris and Anders I had no problem with. in fact they compliment each other well in terms of extreme points of view, something the story of Dragon Age II actually needed to have to blind hatred for, although by act III the lines blur for Fenris, and Anders has a chance to be redeemed. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 02 janvier 2012 - 10:41 .

[TEWR]

lol it's not an obsession, trust me.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 janvier 2012 - 11:09 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

If it's not an obsession, then it certainly still is weird to go making a whole analogy between your own life and a video game character that clearly wasn't written without much thought put into her.

People with fetishes for cartoons created for four year olds should not throw obsession stones and live in Pony glass houses, I say.

No offense to either of you, fiction and art are created to connect us and to find meaning and enjoyment, even if the artist did not entirely intend it that way. Its what makes the concept of story telling so intrinsic to human nature.

[TEWR]

Fast Jimmy wrote...


No offense to either of you, fiction and art are created to connect us and to find meaning and enjoyment, even if the artist did not entirely intend it that way. Its what makes the concept of story telling so intrinsic to human nature.

None taken on my part. I find it somewhat akin to songs made by bands. One person may find that it applies to something in their life and thus feel something very deep and spiritual concerning the songs.

Charon -- one of my favorite bands of all time -- has made such songs, as the lead singer J.P. Leppaluoto has said that he didn't want to say what the songs were truly written about because he wanted each fan to find his/her own meaning behind the songs.

Music is after all another medium used to tell stories.

Granted, it's not exactly the same but people do like the companions for different reasons.

If it's not an obsession, then it certainly still is weird to go making a whole analogy between your own life and a video game character that clearly wasn't written without much thought put into her.

Well I did say it felt weird to do it when I was typing that all out anyway.

And you say Merrill wasn't written with much thought. I beg to differ. That's how these things called opinions work.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 02 janvier 2012 - 11:42 .

[Zjarcal]

Oh great, now the thread is going to be an anti-pony thread!

That'd be some fun derailment (aside from the other derailment).

Modifié par Zjarcal, 02 janvier 2012 - 11:41 .

[LinksOcarina]

Ivandra Ceruden wrote...

Fast Jimmy: oh, seems like we got yet anothzr pony hater here who doesn't have the balls to judge a show after having at least seen a few episodes of it. Go back to your haters group, dude. I'm tired ofall the pony hate, just like I'm tired of all the useless 'I hate/love this character' topics...it's a subjective subject afterall.

Well, ive seen it.

Despite the fact that Faust was a part of the show before she quit after season 1, and that the characters do have a bit of depth to them, I can honestly care less for it.

And honestly, if the topic offends you so much, why the hell are you here? 

[TEWR]

Zjarcal wrote...

Oh great, now the thread is going to be an anti-pony thread!

That'd be some fun derailment (aside from the other derailment).

Let's talk about trains!

*derails thread onto a railroaded topic*

[Clover Rider]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Oh great, now the thread is going to be an anti-pony thread!

That'd be some fun derailment (aside from the other derailment).

Let's talk about trains!

*derails thread onto a railroaded topic*

Let us talk about Aquaman!

[alex90c]

I don't know, I liked Eve Myles' voice and thought that it did work wonders for Merrill. Opinions differ though.

Eh, I didn't like the VA at all. I still can't decide between her or Jo Wyatt for worst voice in the game though, FemHawke literally had me in front of my screen cringing.