To bring this thread as well to an Official Campaign forum from where I started it on the DA2 General Discussion forums (for whatever reason I'm not able to post a DA2 Official Campaign topic...may simply need to be a registered owner?)...
I was just curious what your thoughts might be on the topic below... Thanks for any input!
________________
Hello,
This topic has has been touched on in other threads, particularly as regards the Dalish, but I was curious if there was any sort of consensus as to the city elves specifically? In DA2 we see...
SPOILERS
...the abuses allowed by the Magistrate's son upon the elves, the "elven zealot" complaining about how the alienage elves are lost "twice," first to the cities and then to the Qun, for purpose. We also see city elves running to the qunari literally, for asylum, and fighting alongside them during the Act 2 invasion with no follow-up afterwards that I personally have been able to find. Anders, in ambient dialogue within Kirkwall's alienage, will mention how the elves suffer much like the mages and that they should join them. Lastly, Hawke can suggest to Merrill that she become hahren to the Kirkwall alienage and, presumably, attempt to advocate and improve their lives.
END SPOILERS
These incidents occur periodically throughout the game, and we have some clear evidence in the game that not all city elves are happy with their lot. Yet the mages fail to enlist the elves as Anders touches on, or to even include them in a potential joint fight for freedom that could possibly benefit both sides, and the elves' own plight is largely brushed aside after these individual encounters.
I'm just curious what people's thoughts might be on this, if you have any..? In short, when will it be the city elves' own turn for freedom? Their existence and the extent, and timeline, of their oppression is very similar to that of mages but few if any ever consider them for long. As a fan of the Tabris origin I'm personally as curious about their future as as I am that of the mages and templars, and I wonder if "freedom" for the alienages is the proverbial "dream deferred?" I appreciate any thoughts on this...thank you!
Elven Rebellion Someday? [Also on DA2 General Discussion]
Débuté par
WardenWade
, janv. 01 2012 04:03
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#2
Posté 01 janvier 2012 - 05:14
pplr
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Its very clear this is a DA2 rather than DA:O based into to discussion. So let me point out a few DA:O factors.
Alistair-if you make him king in DA:O the city elves will have a human leader who actually shows some sympathies towards them. He isn't an elf but he has been treated badly himself so he, arguably, feels for those he sees as being treated badly.
Likelihood of elf rebellion (at least in Ferelden) dropping.
Also (one of the reasons many liked DA:O is you could pick your origin) the Warden that became a hero and saved everyone may well be a City Elf him or herself. If this hero is a Bann for City Elves that gives them even more reason to feel happier, more respected, and less reason to rebel.
So those 2 aspects can have a huge impact on if or how an elven rebellion would occur. Occurring in some nations but *not* others, occurring in some nations with weapons or supplies provided by a certain Warden turned Bann, or not occurring at all as Ferelden provides an example of elves & humans working towards a mutual accord with each other.
Don't get me wrong, city elves are treated badly in most kingdoms you can name in the DA series. And that provides fuel for future if not current resentment on the elves part. But there seem to be 3 ways to deal with inequality and elves-status quo, active fighting and resentment, or a progression towards mutual acceptance.
Also for there to be a true city elf rebellion it would help for them to have stronghold to do it from. There are occasionally elven riots but those are often put down by better armed and more numbered humans.
Also point about mages and elves is a good one. Anders is not a good leader (arguably more of a murderer than much else but that is a different thread) and he doesn't seek to build up a strong mage organization that can protect and aid them from templars.
An actual revolutionary may look for alliances that can be made and find common cause with city elves. But it takes leaders with enough strategic thinking from at least one of those groups to see how badly they may need the help of the other in a rebelling alliance.
Now one of the difficulties of such an alliance is communicating-both groups are often locked into their different areas with little traffic between.... granted recently recruited elven circle mages could assist a great deal with this but they seem to be one of the few slivers of possibility.
Elves don't have the numbers to rebel successfully against humans in Dragon Age. Thus an alliance with mages or some other group of mainly humans would likely be necessary for this rebellion to be more than a flash in the pan.
A slow but continual progressive improvement in respect and authority (going back to what I touched on before) is also an important possibility.
Also consider the possible reactions of humans on the ground and in leadership to city elves when guessing if such a revolt would take place and if it would succeed. Alistair, Anora, and Meredith each have different leadership styles that may make it more or less likely elves would feel a need to revolt.
Alistair-if you make him king in DA:O the city elves will have a human leader who actually shows some sympathies towards them. He isn't an elf but he has been treated badly himself so he, arguably, feels for those he sees as being treated badly.
Likelihood of elf rebellion (at least in Ferelden) dropping.
Also (one of the reasons many liked DA:O is you could pick your origin) the Warden that became a hero and saved everyone may well be a City Elf him or herself. If this hero is a Bann for City Elves that gives them even more reason to feel happier, more respected, and less reason to rebel.
So those 2 aspects can have a huge impact on if or how an elven rebellion would occur. Occurring in some nations but *not* others, occurring in some nations with weapons or supplies provided by a certain Warden turned Bann, or not occurring at all as Ferelden provides an example of elves & humans working towards a mutual accord with each other.
Don't get me wrong, city elves are treated badly in most kingdoms you can name in the DA series. And that provides fuel for future if not current resentment on the elves part. But there seem to be 3 ways to deal with inequality and elves-status quo, active fighting and resentment, or a progression towards mutual acceptance.
Also for there to be a true city elf rebellion it would help for them to have stronghold to do it from. There are occasionally elven riots but those are often put down by better armed and more numbered humans.
Also point about mages and elves is a good one. Anders is not a good leader (arguably more of a murderer than much else but that is a different thread) and he doesn't seek to build up a strong mage organization that can protect and aid them from templars.
An actual revolutionary may look for alliances that can be made and find common cause with city elves. But it takes leaders with enough strategic thinking from at least one of those groups to see how badly they may need the help of the other in a rebelling alliance.
Now one of the difficulties of such an alliance is communicating-both groups are often locked into their different areas with little traffic between.... granted recently recruited elven circle mages could assist a great deal with this but they seem to be one of the few slivers of possibility.
Elves don't have the numbers to rebel successfully against humans in Dragon Age. Thus an alliance with mages or some other group of mainly humans would likely be necessary for this rebellion to be more than a flash in the pan.
A slow but continual progressive improvement in respect and authority (going back to what I touched on before) is also an important possibility.
Also consider the possible reactions of humans on the ground and in leadership to city elves when guessing if such a revolt would take place and if it would succeed. Alistair, Anora, and Meredith each have different leadership styles that may make it more or less likely elves would feel a need to revolt.
#3
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 03:50
WardenWade
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You're right about the topic, pplr. I tried to post it on the DA2 Official Campaign thread but it wouldn't let me do so...I'm not a registered owner of the game and I imagine that's the problem. I appreciate your feedback here, however :-)
Alistair as king does indeed improve the lot of elves, but only in the sense, IMHO, that they are being less actively oppressed. Life is certainly improved, and your chosen elder can be appointed to a much higher position than ever before, but the alienages are still there and the injustices most likely still happen. The nobles will surely continue to make life difficult. King Alistair makes a big step in the right direction with this and the land granted to the Dalish, but he can't change everything, nor can he police the alienage or new homeland to make sure that the gains it makes aren't diminished by violence from either elves or humans.
If the Warden or a family member becomes the Bann this is also positive...however even here riots ultimately occur that set the progress back. I believe the slide for a Warden Bann mentions more or less that "the more things change, the more they stay the same." Riots, shocking violence or simply a backslide in progress occur in nearly every ending for the alienage, to greater or lesser degrees. This or even the gains made under Alistair might make the elves confident enough, or desperate enough, to make their own bid for freedom.
I completely agree that it would take a lot of work for a revolt, however, and a lot of obstacles would need to be overcome for it to happen. Weapons are scarce and communication scatter-shot, but neither of these things are absolute. During the battle in Denerim, Shianni and others find bows and arrows (and during the time of Andraste elves fought back with whatever they could scavenge, for example), and matchmakers appear to freely travel between alienages.
I appreciate your input about the mages! Anders' comment about the city elves with no follow-up always seemed odd to me personally. Given his drive to free the mages you would expect him to turn to any possible allies, as a good leader might, but nothing comes of it and the mages are forced to stand alone. The elves might also have reached out to the mages who were clearly suffering but also refuse, so it certainly goes both ways.
As you touched on, slow progress towards equality is likely the best option, especially as it might force the hand of the current ruler, whether to harsher (Anora) or more lenient (Alistair) ends. I just couldn't help but wonder, with the current mage-templar conflict, if city elves would ever enjoy the same consideration of their struggles by the Chantry.
I truly appreciate your feedback, pplr! You made a lot of good points, and I appreciate your thinking so much about my post...more than it deserved, most likely :-) Thanks again!
Alistair as king does indeed improve the lot of elves, but only in the sense, IMHO, that they are being less actively oppressed. Life is certainly improved, and your chosen elder can be appointed to a much higher position than ever before, but the alienages are still there and the injustices most likely still happen. The nobles will surely continue to make life difficult. King Alistair makes a big step in the right direction with this and the land granted to the Dalish, but he can't change everything, nor can he police the alienage or new homeland to make sure that the gains it makes aren't diminished by violence from either elves or humans.
If the Warden or a family member becomes the Bann this is also positive...however even here riots ultimately occur that set the progress back. I believe the slide for a Warden Bann mentions more or less that "the more things change, the more they stay the same." Riots, shocking violence or simply a backslide in progress occur in nearly every ending for the alienage, to greater or lesser degrees. This or even the gains made under Alistair might make the elves confident enough, or desperate enough, to make their own bid for freedom.
I completely agree that it would take a lot of work for a revolt, however, and a lot of obstacles would need to be overcome for it to happen. Weapons are scarce and communication scatter-shot, but neither of these things are absolute. During the battle in Denerim, Shianni and others find bows and arrows (and during the time of Andraste elves fought back with whatever they could scavenge, for example), and matchmakers appear to freely travel between alienages.
I appreciate your input about the mages! Anders' comment about the city elves with no follow-up always seemed odd to me personally. Given his drive to free the mages you would expect him to turn to any possible allies, as a good leader might, but nothing comes of it and the mages are forced to stand alone. The elves might also have reached out to the mages who were clearly suffering but also refuse, so it certainly goes both ways.
As you touched on, slow progress towards equality is likely the best option, especially as it might force the hand of the current ruler, whether to harsher (Anora) or more lenient (Alistair) ends. I just couldn't help but wonder, with the current mage-templar conflict, if city elves would ever enjoy the same consideration of their struggles by the Chantry.
I truly appreciate your feedback, pplr! You made a lot of good points, and I appreciate your thinking so much about my post...more than it deserved, most likely :-) Thanks again!
