457 réponses à ce sujet

[yaw]

 ... silent protagonist?

Skyrim has proved to the gaming industry that the silent protagonist is not dead, and dialouge wheels arn't necessary. 

Before November I thought Bioware was going to be stubborn in their ways and consider a voiced protagonist and conversation wheel to be a perminant feature in all their games from now on.. but frankly, after the failure of DA2 and the success of Skyrim, maybe Bioware might be open to advice now.

I've certainly never heard anyone complain about the silent protagonist in Skyrim. Why not? Because it's not needed. Oblivion didn't have one, Morrowind didn't have one, none of the ES series had one. And noone felt the need to 'innovate' and start using one. Take notes.


EDIT:

Sylvianus wrote...

The op simply stated that even with a silent protagonist, the huge market ( since that's what interest Bioware according to him ) could totally buy the game. The logic is fair, and is totally based on a fact.

Many people on this board months ago said that a silent protagonist was something antiquated, and that the next bioware's game couldn't sell with that. Skyrim can just show that this statement ( antiquated ) isn't necessarily a fair statement.

Modifié par yaw, 16 janvier 2012 - 12:12 .

[andar91]

Mike Laidlaw has already said that it is extremely unlikely they will go back to a silent protagonist. How it will be implemented may change, but I would not hope for it, because I don't think it's going to happen.

[yaw]

That was a year ago though, before Dragon Age 2 was even released. Since then DA2 has been met with a truck load of criticism and low reviews, while Skyrim has come out the best game of 2011.

Surely that's enough to make him reconsider his stance.

[ADelusiveMan]

I do not want a silent protagonist. Making Hawke speak was a step in the right direction.

Modifié par ADelusiveMan, 02 janvier 2012 - 09:47 .

[yaw]

ADelusiveMan wrote...

I do not want a silent protagonist. Making Hawke speak was a step in the right direction.

Explain?

[LinksOcarina]

simple, it fits the type of game they are making over a silent protagonist.

Skyrim was a dungeon crawler, so dialogue is not its main strength. Dragon Age II was a CRPG, so the story contained in-game has much more nuances because it is more character driven, both your character, and side characters and companions you have. They make up the experience, whereas Skyrim's experience is more about exploration and wonder of the world.

Of course Dragon Age should copy that part from Skyrim, more of the world. But they shouldn't make it sandbox either because then it won't work.

[Sylfschiffer]

Making the character talk seem it to be more alive and the tone can be very fun (in a lot of ways, like the sarcastic Hawke was awesome to me). As you like silent protagonist, I can fully understand that, but I'm more like a gamer who like when the main character has a more important role than just saving the world. I want him to have a deep relationship with the characters and a lot of discussions with them (more intimate than the relationships in Skyrim).

If you say that nobody complained about a silent protagonist in Oblivion, you're wrong to me. I'm part of a group of gamers and everyone agreed that the silent protagonist "broke" the "perfect" of the serie. You should say "I've never seen someone complaining about silent protagonists", because you're not the perfect truth. I'm not saying to make you angry, but just so you know

Still, you can dislike DAII, but is really the voice that is breaking anything? To you, maybe it's just the dialogue because if voiced or not, as you like silent protagonist, it should doesn't really matter to you if the character is voiced or not, no? '-'

[Cutlasskiwi]

The way I see it, the Dragonborn is not really a character it's a avatar that allows the player to play around in the world. Whereas in BioWare games you're always playing a somewhat redefined character and step into their shoes and for me, the voice can be a part of that without being jarring.

On a side note, I loved the fact that Hawke was voiced since everyone else in the game is voiced.

[Sylvianus]

Bioware won't return to this concept, at least for DA3. Why ? cinematics. ( More and more impressive and they become very effective in this area ) It is clear that they see it as a strength.

A voiced protagonist is more appropriate for the type of format they want to be amplified.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 02 janvier 2012 - 10:16 .

[yaw]

@LinksOcarina
I don't think having a voiced protagonist adds anything to the experience and depth of character. In fact, and this is only my opinion so feel free to disagree, I think it takes something away. The dialogue can be just as strong without a voice, as Origins' was.

@Sylfschiffer
I just think the voice adds nothing and that resources should be better spent on other things. If Hawk wasn't voiced, would we have had more then one dungeon map? An apostate mage story line? More NPC models and less clones? A longer, fleshier game altogether?

[yaw]

@Cutlasskiwi
The Warden and BG's PC weren't defined characters. It's only in Dragon Age 2 (in this franchise) that we've had a defined character.
Mass Effect has one, but it's a different game series.

[Morroian]

yaw wrote...

That was a year ago though, before Dragon Age 2 was even released. Since then DA2 has been met with a truck load of criticism and low reviews, while Skyrim has come out the best game of 2011.

Surely that's enough to make him reconsider his stance.

Skyrim is a different type of game than what Bioware makes now. They make cinematic style games, a style which is strengthened by having a voiced protagonist. You may well bemoan Bioware going in that cinematic direction but maybe that just means their games are not for you now.

yaw wrote...

@Cutlasskiwi
The Warden and BG's PC weren't defined characters. It's only in Dragon Age 2 (in this franchise) that we've had a defined character. 

Hawke is just as defined as any 1 of the Wardens 

Modifié par Morroian, 02 janvier 2012 - 10:16 .

[caradoc2000]

yaw wrote...

...after the failure of DA2...

Failure? DA2 is the second best Bioware game after Jade Empire.

[MagmaSaiyan]

being a silent character only supports a "you" character, and being Shepard is and isnt a "you" character because hes voiced. so if you look at it that way, the Warden is you as different races, and Hawke isnt as much, but its not like they shouldnt add a non speaking option, if its even possible. my opinion is that I(Warden) am already used so i rather prefer a voiced person from now on

Modifié par MagmaSaiyan, 02 janvier 2012 - 10:31 .

[stobie]

Well, I hope not! I've finished Skyrim (as much as you can given the quest decisions) and I still don't feel like I know my character. I liked the game - it has a lot of strong points, but character isn't one of them. I'm not sure that has anything to do with voice acting - I'm still fonder of my silent elves in Origins than I am of Hawke, but that has more to do with the extremely set path that Hawke must follow. In replays, I get sick of the 3 personalities, in that I'd rather each response be more 'mine,' but it was an interesting angle. I finally found the 'now I'm sarcastic lady hawke' irritating, but it is fun to see her evolve.

Skyrim is fun, the settings much better, but the story felt very small, and my character felt undefined. Race didn't matter, history didn't matter - I sometimes forgot whether I was on my nord girl or my elf boy. I'd hate for DA to depart from strong characterizations.

Also, the opinion of critics is vastly overrated. They seem to repeat each other, look for a consensus of opinion, then be sure not to vary from it, til they sound like parrots. Not important. (and a lot of them used to sound like plants, anyway)

Bioware could learn from Skyrim, sure. But Skyrim could benefit from DA, too.

[Sylvianus]

While I prefer a voiced protagonist, I do not think it's fair to say I hope they won't do a silent protagonist because of Skyrim, a different kind of game. What you said has almost nothing to do with a silent protagonist, for the kind of story you want. Otherwise you wouldn't like DAO. ( I assume you liked this game )

There are for more dialogue interaction in DAO, choices, characterization.

The Op pointed out Skyrim, simply to convince Bioware, that a silent protagonist isn't seen necessarily as an antiquated system by the market. ( sales )

Modifié par Sylvianus, 03 janvier 2012 - 03:21 .

[jcainhaze]

yaw wrote...
That was a year ago though, before Dragon Age 2 was even released. Since then DA2 has been met with a truck load of criticism and low reviews, while Skyrim has come out the best game of 2011.
Surely that's enough to make him reconsider his stance.

I don't think so Yaw.  I don't think DA2's failure had anything to do with having a voiced protagonist.  I think DA2 has been met with such overwhelming negetive criticism because of many other reason. 

Skyrim would gain significanly from a voiced protagonist as well as better story.

Don't let anyone convince you that we can't have games as open and beautiful as Skyrime that also have masterfully crafted and satisfying story, companions, and voiced protagonist.  It's coming in the future.

[Meris]

Morroian wrote...

yaw wrote...

That was a year ago though, before Dragon Age 2 was even released. Since then DA2 has been met with a truck load of criticism and low reviews, while Skyrim has come out the best game of 2011.

Surely that's enough to make him reconsider his stance.

Skyrim is a different type of game than what Bioware makes now. They make cinematic style games, a style which is strengthened by having a voiced protagonist. You may well bemoan Bioware going in that cinematic direction but maybe that just means their games are not for you now.

yaw wrote...

@Cutlasskiwi
The Warden and BG's PC weren't defined characters. It's only in Dragon Age 2 (in this franchise) that we've had a defined character. 

Hawke is just as defined as any 1 of the Wardens 

Dragon Age: Origins was both cinematic and had a silent protagonist.

Furthermore, though the Warden was indeed defined, there is leeway in the silence of the protagonist that allows for liberty of interpretation. Something that's present in some of the greatest literary works but that many of us have used for years in the name of immersion and character building, development and motivation to a degree of variety that no voiced protagonist will ever be able to match. Its player agency to the levels of a fridge brilliance.

And if you don't see merit in that, you must also see that the Silent protagonist also serve as an avatar to play with the world and engage in the story, a la what most people seem to do when playing an Elder Scrolls game.

If anything, Skyrim shows the merits of a Silent Protagonist to both dedicated and casual roleplayers.

But, unfortunately, it seems to be dead.

Modifié par Meris, 03 janvier 2012 - 03:30 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I don't see a silent protagonist in the future for Dragon Age.

It's simply because of the way they handle character interaction. Bethesda uses a "game continues as normal" viewpoint, whereas BioWare games go full cinematics.

If your game's interactions aren't so reliant on cinematics and making things like a movie, gamers don't really pay attention to the protagonist's voice. Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines is a good example of a story centric game with a silent protagonist that no one really argued with.

Because the method of interaction was not cinematic.

Let's use another example.

Baldur's Gate, would having a voiced Bhaalspawn really make the game more "immersive"? Or would the player not give a rat's ass either way?

The latter, because the game's visual presentation and method of interaction does not make use of it.

I'm against the focus on cinematics for a plethora of reasons but BioWare loves it and they want to move forward with a voiced protagonist. It'd be silly to expect a silent one now.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 03 janvier 2012 - 03:42 .

[Mclouvins]

jcainhaze wrote...

yaw wrote...
That was a year ago though, before Dragon Age 2 was even released. Since then DA2 has been met with a truck load of criticism and low reviews, while Skyrim has come out the best game of 2011.
Surely that's enough to make him reconsider his stance.

I don't think so Yaw.  I don't think DA2's failure had anything to do with having a voiced protagonist.  I think DA2 has been met with such overwhelming negetive criticism because of many other reason. 

Skyrim would gain significanly from a voiced protagonist as well as better story.

Don't let anyone convince you that we can't have games as open and beautiful as Skyrime that also have masterfully crafted and satisfying story, companions, and voiced protagonist.  It's coming in the future.

I respectfully disagree, games are costing and increasing amount to produce and adding dialogue off the depth and caliber found in a BW game but expanded to the depth of a bethesda game would be fiscally unfeasilbe. I can't remember the site where I read it off the top of my head but recently Square Enix announced plans to remaster FFX, to which many people asked why FFX instead of FFVII. Their response was that FFVII was just too big to get that done. That undertaking or something similar like Chrono Trigger/Crusade would be good examples becasue they have those kinds of large worlds. Even if somebody did try to pull it off the cash flow problems during the incredibly long development cycles would probably kill the project before it finished.

BW games could potentially be opened up a bit, however for the quasi-cinematic story/character development people wants a little bit of limitation and forced direction is necessary keep a proper pace. Other story heavy RPGS like Deus ex and TW2 use a similar model where the game is broken down into hubs/acts to allow some freedom while also guiding the player.

[Meris]

jcainhaze wrote...

Skyrim would gain significanly from a voiced protagonist as well as better story.

I disagree entirely. The only character I found memorable in all of Skyrim was mine because of the leeway permitted by a Silent Protagonist (and because deep characterization has never been Bethesda's forte), I doubt a voice would grant me a tenth of the liberty I already have. What Skyrim could use are more branching storylines and more dialogue options a la Dragon Age: Origins.

Modifié par Meris, 03 janvier 2012 - 03:38 .

[Sylvianus]

Skyrim or the next game do not need cinematics, nor a voiced protagonist.

It has weaknesses, but it is a kind of game you like or you do not like. A better focus on the story and especially the characters, okay, but that's it in my opinion.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 03 janvier 2012 - 04:13 .

[Morroian]

jcainhaze wrote...

Skyrim would gain significanly from a voiced protagonist as well as better story.

Don't let anyone convince you that we can't have games as open and beautiful as Skyrime that also have masterfully crafted and satisfying story, companions, and voiced protagonist.  It's coming in the future.

I disagree, the strengths of the elder scrolls would not be improved by having a voiced protagonist and indeed it would take away from the areas of strength. I think the stories in Syrim are fine, better than previous elder scrolls games and whilst I personally like Skyrim more than Fallout New Vegas, NV shows the areas where Bethesda could improve, namely in companions and companion interaction.

[Morroian]

Meris wrote...

Dragon Age: Origins was both cinematic and had a silent protagonist.

 
And IMHO would have been improved by having a voiced protagonist eg. the Warden's 1000 yard stare and the moments where another character has to give a speech that should be the Warden's.

Meris wrote...

Furthermore, though the Warden was indeed defined, there is leeway in the silence of the protagonist that allows for liberty of interpretation. Something that's present in some of the greatest literary works but that many of us have used for years in the name of immersion and character building, development and motivation to a degree of variety that no voiced protagonist will ever be able to match. Its player agency to the levels of a fridge brilliance.

 
I agree there is a greater breadth of role playing in that sense but role playing across a fairly wide range is still possible with a voiced protagonist. 

[yaw]

Just to myself clear, I'm not saying DA3 should be exactly like Skyrim or vice versa. I'm just pointing out that if Bioware has the idea that a silent protagonist is a thing of RPG past and that voiced protagonists are the only thing that'll be accepted in a game from now on, they've been proven wrong by Skyrim.