457 réponses à ce sujet

[LinksOcarina]

ApuLunas wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

ApuLunas wrote...

skyrim? ffs skyrim? bethesda should learn from bioware!
arena and daggerfall (elder scrolls chapter I and II) were good games, but the rest are nothing more than disappointment

Actually, Morrowind is perhaps the best game they made in the entire series, because it blended the magic of Daggerfall in terms of actual role-playing with more modern mechanics that make it a playable game. 

At least that is how I see it. I love Daggerfall, but the game has not aged to well...

well dude, a female called me my love in private chat, and false incarnate when i stopped private chat. that kind of absurdity was so common in morrowind (also in oblivion and skyrim). how did you feel any role play i wonder! i believe the most important parts of rpg are story and story telling and bethesda never succeeded in those two.

The never do though. Hell I would argue the story in Daggerfall is thinly veiled and almost superfluous to the entire plot, whereas at least in Morrowind its more prevelant. 

But thats not here nor there, honestly.

[ApuLunas]

LinksOcarina wrote...

ApuLunas wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

ApuLunas wrote...

skyrim? ffs skyrim? bethesda should learn from bioware!
arena and daggerfall (elder scrolls chapter I and II) were good games, but the rest are nothing more than disappointment

Actually, Morrowind is perhaps the best game they made in the entire series, because it blended the magic of Daggerfall in terms of actual role-playing with more modern mechanics that make it a playable game. 

At least that is how I see it. I love Daggerfall, but the game has not aged to well...

well dude, a female called me my love in private chat, and false incarnate when i stopped private chat. that kind of absurdity was so common in morrowind (also in oblivion and skyrim). how did you feel any role play i wonder! i believe the most important parts of rpg are story and story telling and bethesda never succeeded in those two.

The never do though. Hell I would argue the story in Daggerfall is thinly veiled and almost superfluous to the entire plot, whereas at least in Morrowind its more prevelant. 

But thats not here nor there, honestly.

you couldn't feel any story in chapter 1 and 2, that's why they were good. when bethesda tried, they failed miserably.

[LobselVith8]

yaw wrote...

Cyberstrike nTo wrote...

I have to agree. A silent protagonist without an in-game reason why s/he is silient is HUGE step backwards. It just barely works Skyrim and IMHO it looks stupid to have an NPC essentionaly having a one-sided conversation with a silent character. 

S/he ISN'T silent, though. There's dialogue choices, there's communication. Whether a voice actor performs those lines for us or not, they're still being spoken in-game. A 'silent protagonist' and a mute character is not the same thing. So this is not an issue. 

Whether or not it 'looks stupid' to the player is objective. Personally, I read and hear the dialouge in my head when I'm choosing it, so it all goes smoothly for me. In fact, my protagonist saying something completely unexpected from my choice is what looks stupid to me.

I agree, yaw, the protagonist of Skyrim isn't voiced, but the Dragonborn isn't "silent" - there are dialogue options provided throughout the narrative, and choices to reflect what kind of person the player wants the Dragonborn to be - i.e. joining the Thieves Guild or leaving them in disarray, embracing the invitation into the Dark Brotherhood or destroying them, siding with the Daedric Princes or going against them, siding with the Legion or with the Stormcloaks in the civil war, who to turn to for information and guidance during the Main Quest, ect.

As for the idea that it 'looks stupid,' I don't agree with Cyberstrike nTo. When Hawke speaks when I don't choose any dialogue options, it takes me out of the story and I lose all immersion because it reminds me that Hawke is Bioware's character, not mine. When Hawke says things that are completely different than the dialogue option that I chose, then I realize that I don't have any real control over who I want Hawke to be. I prefer the approach taken by Skyrim over the terrible paraphrasing done in Dragon Age II. I'm allowed more range in determing who the Dragonborn is than I am with Hawke, because the paraphrasing makes it so that I'm never in control over who Hawke is, or even what his beliefs are, in the way that I am with the Dragonborn.

[batlin]

Voiced protagonists are overrated. It can be a plus, but I would find it REALLY hard to believe that someone out there wouldn't buy a game only because the main character wasn't voiced. If it's handled well, like it was in Deus Ex: HR, then sure, bring on the voiced protagonist. But if it's done horribly, like this game or TOR, I would much rather my character shut up and let my mind's ear hear his words.

[DreamwareStudio]

After playing DA:O, DA 2, the Witcher games, and Skyrim, my preference is for the silent protagonist. Anyone who says an RPG with a silent PC won't sell in today's gaming world needs to take a look at Skyrim or DA:O.

Modifié par google_calasade, 18 janvier 2012 - 07:28 .

[yusuf060297]

i disagree, i still remember when i was playing dao that i hated it that my warden was just standing there like a piece of wood, with no facial emotions,the only thing i loved about it was that dao had more richer content in conversations then da2 had.
i liked that da2 had a voiced pc but it didnt made it well, it would have been fine with the wheel from the me series, because i simply hated all the three over the top answers that we had to choose in every dialogue, the witcher 2 did it fine without a wheel, and i would love it to be like that in da3, in skyrim the pc doesnt even have voice and thats why i find the game somehow empty, i wouldnt like them to go back to that

[Meris]

yusuf060297 wrote...

i disagree, i still remember when i was playing dao that i hated it that my warden was just standing there like a piece of wood,

Though I see what you mean, a mute character and a silent protagonist aren't the same thing. If your Warden felt empty, then its pretty much because of you, really.

[Morroian]

Meris wrote...

yusuf060297 wrote...

i disagree, i still remember when i was playing dao that i hated it that my warden was just standing there like a piece of wood,

Though I see what you mean, a mute character and a silent protagonist aren't the same thing. If your Warden felt empty, then its pretty much because of you, really.

The issue with DAO is that the cinematics emphasised the muteness unlike say in the gamebryo games (TES, Fallout 3 and NV).

[esper]

The warden feels empty to me because the rest of the cast is voiced and animated, thus it really break my immersion that the warden is not and I never really got into her. On the other hand I have imagined my Hawke to their smallest little details that are so riduclues and knows who they are in their innermost thoughts, because they feel like a part of the world as oppossed to a avatar that is the warden.

Silent or voicless whatever with called it is fine if there are no voice acting then it does break my immerssion at all.
Silent when the rest of the world is voiced makes me feel like the character really is silent. The warden first developed a personality for me in the epilog where it was purely read and I then began thinking about why would they do so and so.

[Meris]

Morroian wrote...

Meris wrote...

yusuf060297 wrote...

i disagree, i still remember when i was playing dao that i hated it that my warden was just standing there like a piece of wood,

Though I see what you mean, a mute character and a silent protagonist aren't the same thing. If your Warden felt empty, then its pretty much because of you, really.

The issue with DAO is that the cinematics emphasised the muteness unlike say in the gamebryo games (TES, Fallout 3 and NV).

Agreed. At times I just wish the game would stop shifting to the Warden's face, mid dialogue.

If the Silent Protagonist is to act as avatar of the player (and therefore be his eyes), then there's no reason to emphasyze the protagonist's face in dialogue.

Instead of scraping the near unlimited freedom of roleplaying in favour of cinematically directing a pre-made character.

PS: By 'dialogue' I do not necessarily mean to include scenes like the Elven Ritual from the Brecillian Forest, where there's no spoken lines involved.

esper wrote...
 On the other hand I have imagined my Hawke to their smallest little details that are so riduclues and knows who they are in their innermost thoughts 

I seriously doubt you've concocted your Hawke's principles and beliefs prior to the story and never came to moments where you simply has no choice other than to derail a character that should've been yours, conforming to BioWare's idea of the Champion of Kirkwall.

Modifié par Meris, 18 janvier 2012 - 09:53 .

[Cutlasskiwi]

Morroian wrote...

Meris wrote...

yusuf060297 wrote...

i disagree, i still remember when i was playing dao that i hated it that my warden was just standing there like a piece of wood,

Though I see what you mean, a mute character and a silent protagonist aren't the same thing. If your Warden felt empty, then its pretty much because of you, really.

The issue with DAO is that the cinematics emphasised the muteness unlike say in the gamebryo games (TES, Fallout 3 and NV).

Agreed.

I prefer voiced protagonist but I don't mind silent but, if every other character in the game is voiced then I want the protagonist to be too. At least in a story focused game.  

[esper]

Meris wrote...
snip because it was directed at someone else.

esper wrote...
 On the other hand I have imagined my Hawke to their smallest little details that are so riduclues and knows who they are in their innermost thoughts 

I seriously doubt you've concocted your Hawke's principles and beliefs prior to the story and never came to moments where you simply has no choice other than to derail a character that should've been yours, conforming to BioWare's idea of the Champion of Kirkwall.

I never had to derail a Hawke much, I work quite well with limitations. Instead of thinking why isn't option z1, g2, and h there, I think why would she take option a, b, or c. and which one would she never take. The only  two times I have felt railroaded is by Tallis in mota, but that is only because she is forced back on the team after my Hawke specifically said no and since it came out so late I was forced to do it in act 3 where my canon Hawke was in an agressive and irritable mood and I cannot see her change her opnion on that. (That can be worked around in my next playthrough by simply doing it in another arc). The other thing is Aveline who I can't get to leave me even though I feel that  it would be most honest to both characters if they broke their friendship in the end. (But that can be worked around as well. I was so close last time and really had some nice conversations that hinted how the relentionship betweent the two had derailed). So that will be as it should be again.  

[yusuf060297]

Meris wrote...

yusuf060297 wrote...

i disagree, i still remember when i was playing dao that i hated it that my warden was just standing there like a piece of wood,

Though I see what you mean, a mute character and a silent protagonist aren't the same thing. If your Warden felt empty, then its pretty much because of you, really.

sorry, i didnt meant it in that way, i actually loved my warden, i loved the dialogues and i didnt felt the warden was empty at all, but sometimes i really wished that the warden him/herself would show their reactions or emotions, there were times like when i was talking to zevran or alistair at the camp where i wished that the warden could speak

[Meris]

yusuf060297 wrote...

Meris wrote...

yusuf060297 wrote...

i disagree, i still remember when i was playing dao that i hated it that my warden was just standing there like a piece of wood,

Though I see what you mean, a mute character and a silent protagonist aren't the same thing. If your Warden felt empty, then its pretty much because of you, really.

sorry, i didnt meant it in that way, i actually loved my warden, i loved the dialogues and i didnt felt the warden was empty at all, but sometimes i really wished that the warden him/herself would show their reactions or emotions, there were times like when i was talking to zevran or alistair at the camp where i wished that the warden could speak

The Warden, my Warden at least, does react to the world around him, does show his emotions and does, indeed speak. Its just that being a Silent Protagonist, I require my imagination to see my story of the Warden coming in fold. This might not be ideal to some (or maybe to most, I don't know), but its more than worth it to me. My Warden, the last Warden I made (for 'canon') had one of the deepest characterizations I ever dedicated to an RPG avatar, to the point that in the end I was surprised when I realized that my Warden would do the Heroic Sacrifice, something that none of my Wardens ever did.

The 'burden' of having to use my imagination is counter-balanced a millionfold by the brilliance of the Silent Protagonist. By the freedom I have and the true co-authorship I experience. And indeed, my very definition of an RPG isn't limited by simply saying 'its a game about immersion and roleplaying' (much less a game with experience points and clumsy inventory), no, to me, the experience of a Silent Protagonist is what an RPG truly is.

Roleplaying this 'Hawke' wasn't much beyond your interpreation of the cause behind a string of actions foreseen by the writers at BioWare. Roleplaying my Warden was exploiting the possibility of different interpretations about the very actions caused by the Protagonist.

[esper]

Meris wrote...

yusuf060297 wrote...

Meris wrote...

yusuf060297 wrote...

i disagree, i still remember when i was playing dao that i hated it that my warden was just standing there like a piece of wood,

Though I see what you mean, a mute character and a silent protagonist aren't the same thing. If your Warden felt empty, then its pretty much because of you, really.

sorry, i didnt meant it in that way, i actually loved my warden, i loved the dialogues and i didnt felt the warden was empty at all, but sometimes i really wished that the warden him/herself would show their reactions or emotions, there were times like when i was talking to zevran or alistair at the camp where i wished that the warden could speak

The Warden, my Warden at least, does react to the world around him, does show his emotions and does, indeed speak. Its just that being a Silent Protagonist, I require my imagination to see my story of the Warden coming in fold. This might not be ideal to some (or maybe to most, I don't know), but its more than worth it to me. My Warden, the last Warden I made (for 'canon') had one of the deepest characterizations I ever dedicated to an RPG avatar, to the point that in the end I was surprised when I realized that my Warden would do the Heroic Sacrifice, something that none of my Wardens ever did.

The 'burden' of having to use my imagination is counter-balanced a millionfold by the brilliance of the Silent Protagonist. By the freedom I have and the true co-authorship I experience. And indeed, my very definition of an RPG isn't limited by simply saying 'its a game about immersion and roleplaying' (much less a game with experience points and clumsy inventory), no, to me, the experience of a Silent Protagonist is what an RPG truly is.

Roleplaying this 'Hawke' wasn't much beyond your interpreation of the cause behind a string of actions foreseen by the writers at BioWare. Roleplaying my Warden was exploiting the possibility of different interpretations about the very actions caused by the Protagonist.

But you see all that imagination you are putting in your warden I am putting in my Hawke(s). The difference being I am not compelled to do that with the warden, because she did not feel like part of the world, but simply felt like an avatar that the companions (who I loved and still loved) used as an object for their monologs. The burden of using imagination for my warden did not feel like a burden, it felt pointless because the warden for me felt disconnected to the world. I did not feel like / nor wish to feel like the author of any game. I play to be absorbed into a world and experience it. I was absorbed in da:o, but that was through the stories of the companions. The warden could have been missing from that game and I woudln't really have cared. I da2 I was absorbed through Hawke and experienced the world and her companions through her eyes. 

Edit: It is getting far too late here for such serious debates. I hope my grammer is at least a litlle readable.
 

Modifié par esper, 18 janvier 2012 - 10:57 .

[Meris]

esper wrote...

But you see all that imagination you are putting in your warden I am putting in my Hawke(s).

No you're not. Not that I'm pretentious to the point of thinking that my character is deeper than yours because I'm awesome, but rather because of some rather practical reasons.

You know that voice Hawke is speaking with? That's your only option.

You know that accent your Hawke speaks in? That's your only option.

You know how Hawke delievers that line he just spoke? That's your only option when being diplomatic/sarcastic/charming/agressive/judgemental.

You know that race Hawke is? That's your only option (being realistic, I'm sure that one big motivation for Hawke being only human is the voice-over - the resources required for 8, 6 or even 4 speaking protagonists would take a lot from the game).

Can you add any nuances to how your Hawke speak? Can you add any emphasys to the words spoken by your Hawke? Can you even twist a little the phrase a little, not enough that it effectively contrasts with the original content but so that the delieverance becomes yours as well as BioWare's?

Not at all. All you can do is to offer your interpretation of Hawke. "Would Hawke be agressive towards the former templar who sold the half-elf to the slaver? Sure, he's a mage himself! Sure, his sister is a mage! Nope, he couldn't care less. Nope, he's way too focused on saving Feynriel for that. Nope, he's a very diplomatic dude. Nope, he thought it was actually a good deal."

I can do that with my Warden, and much, much, muuuuuuuuuuuch more.

As for the rest of your post... I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. There was never a monologue between my Warden, who felt very much like a part of the world of Thedas and the history of the Fifth Blight (hell, he - and I - made more of an impact than Hawke could ever hope to).

Further, I have no idea what you think you're doing when playing Dragon Age. You. are. telling. your version of the story. Of the Legend of the Hero of Ferelden and the Champion of Kirkwall.

Lastly, roleplaying is about becoming another person. Trying to think and act like this theoretical other would. How more immersed can you be when Leliana sings to you and not this 'Hawke'? How can you not wish for an avatar to interact with the world of Thedas, instead of some guy/gal who you just direct?

Modifié par Meris, 19 janvier 2012 - 12:15 .

[publius1000]

Well at this point I'm clearly not going to read 14 pages of thread, but just to reply to OP, I've always found silent protagonists retarded. I mean I could live with it when it was the norm, but seeing how well Bioware, Ubisoft etc. have done voiced protagonists I wonder why they aren't in every game - what possible reason could there be for not doing it? Okay, in Skyrim, yeah, you can be one of a dozen races and male/female so that would be a crap ton of voice acting, but in most games your protagonist is set so WHY NOT?

[Yrkoon]

There's  a few reasons to  prefer a silent protagonist in an RPG.

 Role playing, for one.    yes I know, it's still roleplaying if you're asked to Roleplay Bioware's named, voiced protagonist and his/her 3 different voiced  personnas.  But  for me, I prefer to  play my own Character, and imagine him with *my* voice.  Can't do that in a game like Da2 or Witcher 2, can you.

Also, I don't quite get the   "he looks like a mute Zombie"  retort  or whatever the gripe is.   When I'm playing a game, I like to look at the person my character is talking to.    Because that's how you do it in real life, yes?  (Unless you carry a mirror around and look at it while you're talking to other people so that you can see your own   lips and facial expressions)

That, and.... what happens if you can't  stand  your character's voice acting/voice?   I'll tell you what happens. You're S.O.L for 50 friggin hours.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 janvier 2012 - 12:48 .

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Not to mention the tons of money saved on not having a voice actor involved with every single stitch of dialogue.

This isn't like an animated movie, where an actor can come in and deliver their liens and leave. Having the main character, who is going to be in virtually every scene, record every spoken line by the player in three different sounding tones/voices every time there is a script change or a re-writing of a scene is ridiculous. Its absolutely insane. For a game that doesn't give you a ton of choice about what you say, like in Uncharted or Final Fantasy, this isn't bad. But for a game where dialogue has branches and choice matters? Its absolutely absurd for them to try and voice it.

If anything? They should dump a huge heap of money into creating an in-game engine that can convert text to a plausible voice. This voice could be modified based on race, gender and what the player prefers. It wouldn't be quite as inflected or genuine as a real actor, but it keeps the writing team from being pegged down, it could save money on hiring an actor that people may find annoying and it would be totally okay to have a feature to turn the main character on mute and just have a mute protagonist.

But... the chances of that happening are slimmer than slim.

[Gotholhorakh]

publius1000 wrote...

Well at this point I'm clearly not going to read 14 pages of thread, but just to reply to OP, I've always found silent protagonists retarded. I mean I could live with it when it was the norm, but seeing how well Bioware, Ubisoft etc. have done voiced protagonists I wonder why they aren't in every game - what possible reason could there be for not doing it? Okay, in Skyrim, yeah, you can be one of a dozen races and male/female so that would be a crap ton of voice acting, but in most games your protagonist is set so WHY NOT?

It breaks the impression that you are directly in the game world interacting with it, it's as simple as that.

A random other person's voice doesn't normally start saying stuff from your mouth when you're, you know, a person doing stuff.

In short, it's a third person mechanic.

Now RP is a first person experience that is not always represented in the first person, which is a special case (sort of 2.5th person) and I think this is the reason for people's differences on this.

Also, a lot of people don't immerse, RP or "self-insert" and for them voice is a complete non-issue.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 20 janvier 2012 - 01:35 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

To those people who keep saying the warden has no emotion, what do you see in this picture?

Amber Cousland's final look

This image was screenshot right after Riordan fell to his death. You may see this character show no sign of emotion. I say, she was very determined. She will not hold back no matter what. She had already lost everything she cared for. Her family was murdered and Alistair dumped her. There was nothing left for her. She didn't scared to face death. But she scared if Alistair was foolish enough to ruin everything she worked so hard for him. There was no other way. The Ultimate Sacrifice was the only way. How do I know this? I know because she is my character. Yes it's all in my mind. But  she is always be a character that I created with love and passion. In my eyes, she is as perfect as anyone else.

Now look at this picture.

Again what do you see? You see a character that smiles. I agree she show her emotion visually. As a cheerful person. What you see as perfect responsive is what is I see as flaw with BioWare's character. Why? This person who I imagine to be family oriented person has just lost her brother not long before in a horrible death; smashed by the Ogre and yet she reacted as if nothing happen. This is not my character and I do not love her for the responsive that I have no control over.

Does that mean I hate cinematic experience? Not at all. Cinematic approach, if done right create dramatic feeling and add depth to story element such as this one:

A night of Passion

This screenshot was taken after my AVATAR had taken care of Flemeth and return the Flemeth's Grimoire to Morrigan

This is how we view things in real life when we converse. We focus our attention to whom we speak to. Not let the camera ( or mirror ) to point at our face instead,

Notice it's in first person view? That's precisely the reason why the warden can be played as Player Avatar. It's a first person's perspective. In other word, I AM THE WARDEN. I am well aware the differences between first person and third person view because I can play both styles. My Amber Cousland was my first warden and she is my CREATED CHARACTER which I directed in third person's perspective ( Note that when I said perspective I mean perception. How we think and feel as either first person or third person. Whatever the camera view is not the issue. ).

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 20 janvier 2012 - 03:31 .

[LobselVith8]

publius1000 wrote...

Well at this point I'm clearly not going to read 14 pages of thread, but just to reply to OP, I've always found silent protagonists retarded. I mean I could live with it when it was the norm, but seeing how well Bioware, Ubisoft etc. have done voiced protagonists I wonder why they aren't in every game - what possible reason could there be for not doing it? Okay, in Skyrim, yeah, you can be one of a dozen races and male/female so that would be a crap ton of voice acting, but in most games your protagonist is set so WHY NOT?

I don't think there's anything wrong with having a protagonist who isn't voiced, and I don't think it should become mandatory when there are people who prefer a protagonist who isn't voiced. There are a number of people who have complained about Hawke being voiced, about the bad paraphrasing, about how jarring it was for Hawke to speak entire lines and sentences outside of player control. I don't think it's "retarded" to want to have a protagonist who is actually your character, like the Dragonborn in Skyrim, rather than having to deal with a pre-made character you have no real control over, like Bioware's Hawke.

[alex90c]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

*snip*

Personally I don't mind a cinematic game, as long as it has production values more like Mass Effect. I mean seriously, trying to make a game like DA in to a cinematic experience when there's like ten animations in the entire game blows compared to ME2's enormous library of anims.

[Meris]

PurebredCorn wrote...

And while I can kind of understand why people believe that it contributes to their personalization of a character I think it's a minor contribution, at least for me it is.

The virtues of a Silent Protagonist are as many as you want it to be.