457 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

PurebredCorn wrote...
I disagree. In a game like DA2 where there are cutscenes galore, having the PC stand there staring silently while everyone around them is voiced would be awkward and jarring and a giant step backwards. Something that becomes very apparent if one replays Origins.

  For me,  going into the character creation screen  in DA2 and not seeing   a "choose your race" option is ALSO jarring, awkward,  and a step backwards, but you guys don't seem to  mind that. 

But back on topic.   lets not overstate the whole  "OMG  I'm sitting there speechless like a zombie in Cutscenes" as if it's some huge emersion killing thing.   It's a minor detail at most, since  in 99% of the Cutscenes in Origins, the camera instantly shifts to the person you're speaking to  the second you click on a response.     Oh, and the awkward silent zombie  moments happen in DA2 as well.  The game sits there with the camera on Hawke's face, silent, emotionless,   until you  decide which dialogue option to choose.    But I digress,  that only happens during times when you actually GET to choose what your own character says.  Other times, your character  simply talks without your input at all.  That's real fun too.  It's what gaming is all about after all... when the game plays itself, and you're not really needed.

Modifié par Yrkoon, 20 janvier 2012 - 05:37 .

[Yrkoon]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

To those people who keep saying the warden has no emotion, what do you see in this picture?

******? 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Yrkoon wrote...

PurebredCorn wrote...
I disagree. In a game like DA2 where there are cutscenes galore, having the PC stand there staring silently while everyone around them is voiced would be awkward and jarring and a giant step backwards. Something that becomes very apparent if one replays Origins.

  For me,  going into the character creation screen  in DA2 and not seeing   a "choose your race" option is ALSO jarring, awkward,  and a step backwards, but you guys don't seem to  mind that.

I agree. We miss a lot of things that constitue character creation in pursuit for easy design and cheap. And yet willing to sacrifice the resources for something that is no longer proven to be the main selling points such as cinematic approach like the case of Jurassic Park: The Movie and Dead Island.  

 

Yrkoon wrote...

But back on topic.   lets not overstate the whole  "OMG  I'm sitting there speechless like a zombie in Cutscenes" as if it's some huge emersion killing thing.   It's a minor detail at most, since  in 99% of the Cutscenes in Origins, the camera instantly shifts to the person you're speaking to  the second you click on a response.     Oh, and the awkward silent zombie  moments happen in DA2 as well.  The game sits there with the camera on Hawke's face, silent, emotionless,   until you  decide which dialogue option to choose.

Yep. Like this one;

A blank stare and emotionless/soulless Hawke: 

   
Not only that. It happens to NPCs in other games as well such as this one: Who said NPC is alive and responsive?


It's weird, DAO is the only game that get critized. Not sure whether it's the case of ignorant or hypocrite. 

Yrkoon wrote...

But I digress,  that only happens during times when you actually GET to choose what your own character says.  Other times, your character  simply talks without your input at all.  That's real fun too.  It's what gaming is all about after all... when the game plays itself, and you're not really needed.

In other word, watch the movie or play the role as an observer. Instead of play the role AS the character.

Yrkoon wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

To those people who keep saying the warden has no emotion, what do you see in this picture?

******? 

Oouch! Not at that. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 20 janvier 2012 - 06:22 .

[Morroian]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

A blank stare and emotionless/soulless Hawke: 

 
You're taking a still shot where one si choosing a response rather than a shot of Hawke actually talking. Thats verging on dishonest.

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
   
Not only that. It happens to NPCs in other games as well such as this one: Who said NPC is alive and responsive?

I for one have criticised that conversation 'engine' used by Bethesda and Obsidian. However its hardly cinematic its just a close focus on an NPCs face, not even the player character.

[AlexXIV]

Yrkoon wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

To those people who keep saying the warden has no emotion, what do you see in this picture?

******? 

rofl

[Iosev]

Umm, displaying a screenshot of Hawke before selecting a response is a bit silly, since as soon as the player selects a choice, the character will respond, both verbally and physically (through facial and body motions), whereas once you select a response for a silent protagonist, the focus usually shifts back to the voiced NPC that the player is "talking" to.

Verbal and visual feedback are both important in conversations, especially if you're trying to portray more realistic conversations in an audio-visual form of media, and considering that Bioware places a heavy emphasis on dialogue and companion interactions in their games, I would be surprised if they went back toward a silent protagonist.

[John Epler]

We don't have FaceFX on 'choose your response' shots. This is partially by design, and partially an engine limitation. The former because, essentially, the world is in a 'pause' state when you're choosing a response - and what FaceFX should we put on it? The player hasn't chosen a response yet, after all, so we don't know what emotion they're 'feeling' until they choose it. The latter because there's currently no way to persist FaceFX from the end of a line into a pause - whether we'd do it or not if it were possible is another question, for the reasons indicated above

Having said that, if we ever see it allowed by the technology, one possible solution would be to leave the facial expression from the previous line on the character. Beyond simply facial expressions, though, the solutions to 'person stands there like a zombie while you make your choice' is, really, to put a timer on the dialogue, and I wouldn't expect to see that any time soon in BioWare games. The pause exists outside of the world created by the game - it's not supposed to actually suggest that everyone is standing around, waiting with bated breath for your next words.

[devSin]

You should make it so they start to do silly faces and stuff if the player sits there without choosing a response for a long time. :-)

[craigdolphin]

Sacred fantasy, what game is that second screenshot from?

[Dominus]

The pause exists outside of the world created by the game - it's not supposed to actually suggest that everyone is standing around, waiting with bated breath for your next words.

In a similar way why a HUD exists. There aren't magical rectangles of red hanging nearby your generic hero. It's meant to assist the player outside of the in-game world.

Though I like to pretend they're waiting for me to say something.

"He's totally gonna pick the roma-damnit he went renegade."

[John Epler]

DominusVita wrote...

The pause exists outside of the world created by the game - it's not supposed to actually suggest that everyone is standing around, waiting with bated breath for your next words.

In a similar way why a HUD exists. There aren't magical rectangles of red hanging nearby your generic hero. It's meant to assist the player outside of the in-game world.

Though I like to pretend they're waiting for me to say something.

"He's totally gonna pick the roma-damnit he went renegade."

I've engaged in much self-flagellation over the Grace/Thrask scene in Act Three, but this was another place where I really needed to pay more attention to the tension of the scene. It's somewhat ridiculous when you're in the middle of a tense standoff and then EVERYONE WAITS while you carefully choose a dialogue option. While a gradual building of tension is often preferable, sometimes, you just have to pass every other defcon on the way to defcon 1.

[Meris]

Morroian wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

A blank stare and emotionless/soulless Hawke: 

 
You're taking a still shot where one si choosing a response rather than a shot of Hawke actually talking. Thats verging on dishonest.

Its because he's quoting Yrkoon, who said that most of the time the focus is on the Warden its when you're about to choose a dialogue. No problems with lack of emotions there.

[Wulfram]

JohnEpler wrote...

I've engaged in much self-flagellation over the Grace/Thrask scene in Act Three, but this was another place where I really needed to pay more attention to the tension of the scene. It's somewhat ridiculous when you're in the middle of a tense standoff and then EVERYONE WAITS while you carefully choose a dialogue option. While a gradual building of tension is often preferable, sometimes, you just have to pass every other defcon on the way to defcon 1.

I hope that doesn't imply more auto-dialogue.  I hate auto-dialogue, particularly in important situations.

Could the game actually pause when you're choosing you're dialogue, rather than having you look at the PCs breathing?  It would seem like a way to avoid implying that time is passing while you're making your decision.

[Brockololly]

JohnEpler wrote...

We don't have FaceFX on 'choose your response' shots. This is partially by design, and partially an engine limitation. The former because, essentially, the world is in a 'pause' state when you're choosing a response - and what FaceFX should we put on it? The player hasn't chosen a response yet, after all, so we don't know what emotion they're 'feeling' until they choose it. The latter because there's currently no way to persist FaceFX from the end of a line into a pause - whether we'd do it or not if it were possible is another question, for the reasons indicated above

With BioWare games going for the cinematic angle in story telling over everything else though, wouldn't it make sense to use timed dialogue? It works great in Alpha Protocol in keeping the conversations flowing without being choppy like I think they feel in recent BioWare games that use the wheel.

Why not do something like Jade Empire where the tone of the response you're mousing over is reflected on the PC 's face- if the camera is focusing on the PC?

JohnEpler wrote...
Having said that, if we ever see it allowed by the technology, one possible solution would be to leave the facial expression from the previous line on the character. Beyond simply facial expressions, though, the solutions to 'person stands there like a zombie while you make your choice' is, really, to put a timer on the dialogue, and I wouldn't expect to see that any time soon in BioWare games. The pause exists outside of the world created by the game - it's not supposed to actually suggest that everyone is standing around, waiting with bated breath for your next words.

I guess my larger issue is why even have the camera focused on your player character when choosing dialogue in the first place? If my PC is talking to someone, wouldn't I want the attention on whoever I'm speaking to? I think that was one of the problems sometimes in DAO where people complained of the Warden's blank face, but thats only because you (BioWare, at least, not you personally) focused on it so often instead of over the shoulder shots. I think over the shoulder type shots do a better job of reinforcing the more first person narrative too. That way, like in Deus Ex: Human Revolution's persuade conversations, your attention is on who you're talking to and you can try to read the subject's body language; you're not left looking at Jensen blankly staring at them.

Basically, so long as BioWare is sticking to the purposefully vague and unhelpful praphrases on the dialogue wheel, I'd prefer some sort of timing. Cause so long as you're stuck with obfuscating paraphrases and not the full text, its not a first person narrative and like Alpha Protocol, makes for a more interesting experience where you're not over analyzing poor paraphrases but going with your first impression. 

Or even if it was like Skyrim where if you wait a long time in the dialogue screen, eventually people will react and walk away/fight or whatever. It takes a while to happen, but people eventually do react to you not continuing conversation with them if you take a long time.

Or better yet, BioWare could let you actually pause the game in dialogue. That would be swell.

[Plaintiff]

DominusVita wrote...

The pause exists outside of the world created by the game - it's not supposed to actually suggest that everyone is standing around, waiting with bated breath for your next words.

In a similar way why a HUD exists. There aren't magical rectangles of red hanging nearby your generic hero. It's meant to assist the player outside of the in-game world.

Though I like to pretend they're waiting for me to say something.

"He's totally gonna pick the roma-damnit he went renegade."

"Come ooooooon sarcastic, mama needs a new pair of absurdly tall boots."

[devSin]

Brockololly wrote...

Why not do something like Jade Empire where the tone of the response you're mousing over is reflected on the PC 's face- if the camera is focusing on the PC?

But this was the only time you would see the PC's face. (And it was kind of silly besides.)

I don't think it would work to have the PC start throwing out a bunch of expressions that may have nothing to do with the conversation that John cuts after you choose the response. It would just be an expression for the sake of having it, and then John would do whatever he felt was best when the scene actually proceeds.

[Iosev]

Wulfram wrote...
I hope that doesn't imply more auto-dialogue.  I hate auto-dialogue, particularly in important situations.

I personally liked a lot of the auto-dialogue, especially the personality-specific instances.  It was nice replaying the game and seeing a markedly different Hawke react to certain situations.  At least for me, it has provided a lot of replay value, as I've now gone through the game at least once with each dominant personality, largely because I was looking forward to seeing the different reactions that Hawke can have. 

[Wulfram]

arcelonious wrote...

I personally liked a lot of the auto-dialogue, especially the personality-specific instances.  It was nice replaying the game and seeing a markedly different Hawke react to certain situations.  At least for me, it has provided a lot of replay value, as I've now gone through the game at least once with each dominant personality, largely because I was looking forward to seeing the different reactions that Hawke can have. 

It would be more tolerable if two of the three personalities didn't tend to be jerks or idiots in the auto-dialogue.

Modifié par Wulfram, 20 janvier 2012 - 10:57 .

[Meris]

arcelonious wrote...
I would be surprised if they went back toward a silent protagonist.

I don't see why. That would only mean they wish their RPG to be a means of becoming and acting as another person, as opposed to merely directing a BioWare made character.

Modifié par Meris, 20 janvier 2012 - 11:48 .

[Atakuma]

Meris wrote...

arcelonious wrote...
I would be surprised if they went back toward a silent protagonist.

I don't see why. That would only mean they wish their RPG to be a means of becoming and acting as another person, as opposed to merely directing a BioWare made character.

Merely? That is all you've ever been able to do. Having a voiced character doesn't change the fact that all your available responses are completely predetermined by Bioware.

[Meris]

Atakuma wrote...

Meris wrote...

arcelonious wrote...
I would be surprised if they went back toward a silent protagonist.

I don't see why. That would only mean they wish their RPG to be a means of becoming and acting as another person, as opposed to merely directing a BioWare made character.

Merely? That is all you've ever been able to do. Having a voiced character doesn't change the fact that all your available responses are completely predetermined by Bioware.

A same historic fact can have a number of interpretations. The more of my character's part in conversation is described on screen, the less personalized becomes my interpretation of the story of the game and of the protagonist.

So though one might raise interpretations about why Hawke acted as either blue/purple or red at a given time, I can do that with my Warden and much, much more.

Essentially, the Silent Protagonist implies more interactivity, which transcends that of the game. And considering video games are a medium about interactivity, a Silent Protagonist, arguably, implies a better game also.

Modifié par Meris, 21 janvier 2012 - 12:41 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

craigdolphin wrote...

Sacred fantasy, what game is that second screenshot from?

It's Dungeon Siege III developed by Obsidian. The image is linked from this website:

Casa update and a quick look on the Dungeon Siege III demo

[eroeru]

Meris wrote...

A same historic fact can have a number of interpretations. The more of my character's part in conversation is described on screen, the less personalized becomes my interpretation of the story of the game and of the protagonist.

So though one might raise interpretations about why Hawke acted as either blue/purple or red at a given time, I can do that with my Warden and much, much more.

Essentially, the Silent Protagonist implies more interactivity, which transcends that of the game. And considering video games are a medium about interactivity, a Silent Protagonist, arguably, implies a better game also.

Very well said!

I'm tired of proDA2 people assessing that DA:O was identical with DA2 in the aspects that are referred to in criticisms (and only those). It wasn't. One could simply not feel an aspect important, but to claim an angle non-existent is rude even.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Morroian wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

A blank stare and emotionless/soulless Hawke: 

 
You're taking a still shot where one si choosing a response rather than a shot of Hawke actually talking. Thats verging on dishonest.

The same thing can be said to those who criticize the warden's "blank stare" when the warden is waiting for NPCs to finish talking.   

Morroian wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...
   
Not only that. It happens to NPCs in other games as well such as this one: Who said NPC is alive and responsive?

I for one have criticised that conversation 'engine' used by Bethesda and Obsidian. However its hardly cinematic its just a close focus on an NPCs face, not even the player character.

Yes I used NPC facial reaction instead of player character. Because some people are so bend to base on NPCs reaction to justify the cause of pre-defined player character's response. The fact is NPCs are not human. They cannot and will not understand human communication no matter what language you use unless of course you use programming language.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 21 janvier 2012 - 02:37 .