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[Silfren]

yaw wrote...

 ... silent protagonist?

Skyrim has proved to the gaming industry that the silent protagonist is not dead, and dialouge wheels arn't necessary. 

Before November I thought Bioware was going to be stubborn in their ways and consider a voiced protagonist and conversation wheel to be a perminant feature in all their games from now on.. but frankly, after the failure of DA2 and the success of Skyrim, maybe Bioware might be open to advice now.

I've certainly never heard anyone complain about the silent protagonist in Skyrim. Why not? Because it's not needed. Oblivion didn't have one, Morrowind didn't have one, none of the ES series had one. And noone felt the need to 'innovate' and start using one. Take notes.

I don't think it matters how much you hope.  Last time I spoke with Laidlaw it was stated flat-out that Bioware isn't going back to silent protagonists.  And this was several months after the release of DA2, even amidst all the criticism of the game. 

Modifié par Silfren, 05 janvier 2012 - 09:01 .

[Silfren]

yaw wrote...

@LinksOcarina
I don't think having a voiced protagonist adds anything to the experience and depth of character. In fact, and this is only my opinion so feel free to disagree, I think it takes something away. The dialogue can be just as strong without a voice, as Origins' was.

@Sylfschiffer
I just think the voice adds nothing and that resources should be better spent on other things. If Hawk wasn't voiced, would we have had more then one dungeon map? An apostate mage story line? More NPC models and less clones? A longer, fleshier game altogether?

See, I have a very difficult time with Origins now because of the silent protagonist.  I much prefer voiced Hawke.  With my Warden, now, I feel like I'm playing a mute.

Now, I'd prefer that a voiced protagonist have more than three basic dialogue options based on tone--so having four or five basic lines to say just as the Warden did, and thus having a little more variance in how to rp your character would be awesome.  It would also be awesome for the summary dialogue to be an ACCURATE reflection of what the protagonist is going to say, so I'm not left there going "They meant this for THAT?  That's not what I wanted to say at all!  OMGWTFBBQ NOW I GOTTA RELOAD DAMNIT"  But I personally think that having a silent PC takessomething from the game, rather than adding to it.

If you think that nobody has complained about silent protagonists in Skyrim, Oblivion, and other games, think again.  The argument from silence isn't going to do you any favors, as the only thing it really shows is that YOU haven't seen it, not that it doesn't exist.

[Addai]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
As for silent vs. voiced protagonist, Bioware is not going to go back to the first because their whole vision for their games is to be cinematic. What I do hope is that they leave off the nonsense about "no one likes the silent protagonist" because that was a dumb marketing argument to begin with. You didn't need Skyrim to see that, just Fallout 3 or FNV. As long as they stick to a more moderate "voiced PC works better for what we want in our games," it's fine. For me the voiced/ silent PC is probably the line between a game I can love and live in and one that's a temporary diversion, but at least I'd like not to be dismissed as a fossil for what is really just a preference in storytelling mode.

But the opposite argument, that many people like it based on FO or TES is as bad as what Bioware does. It's like saying that you like PC VO because you bought an ME game.

I didn't try to argue that people buy Beth games because they have silent protagonist, though I do think the silent PC is part of those games' success because it fosters roleplay freedom and flexibility.  If you read my post again, I'm only taking issue with the hype over DA2's change as something that was necessitated by where games are going or whatever.  Obviously it's where Bioware's games are going.

[Meris]

Silfren wrote...

If you think that nobody has complained about silent protagonists in Skyrim, Oblivion, and other games, think again.  The argument from silence isn't going to do you any favors, as the only thing it really shows is that YOU haven't seen it, not that it doesn't exist.

The point is: the Silence, instead of being viewed as a perfectly valid choice for a more versatile and personalized protagonist, is being painted out there as a thing of the past.

Skyrim's success as one of the few big RPGs of 2011 without a set protagonist (like Witcher II, Deus Ex and Dragon Age II) and with the Silent Protagonist only adds as an argument. And to try and dispute it with 'someone out there complains about it' is a bit silly. Especially since you can't say 'If you think that DA:O was okay with its silent protagonist, look again: people complained' - the fanbase is split in two by the issue (and, arguably, it wasn't before DA2 was launched).

If you think you're playing a mute in DA:O, you should try active roleplaying.

Modifié par Meris, 05 janvier 2012 - 09:17 .

[Silfren]

Shevy_001 wrote...

I liked the silent protagonist from DA:O a lot more, because you can imagine how your charakter will respond. Helps me for immersion.

Problem with this is that you're not imagining anything.  With either the Warden or Hawke, you're choosing from a list of presets, and there are quite a few cases with Origins where I chose a dialogue option that I interpreted as diplomatic or compassionate, only to have the companion I was speaking to respond as if I'd been rude, cruel, or sarcastic.  It's far from a perfect system, and I've yet to understand how silent text provides greater room for imagination.  It's kind of pointless to imagine the tone of your Warden as gentle or helpful or whatever when not only is the companion going to take it a completely different way, but subsequent dialogues from your PC are going to follow the companion's interpretation. 

It would be better if players didn't have to click a dialogue option and just hope that they're correct in assuming how it will sound.  I.E., being able to trust that the sarcastic option will actually come across as sarcastic, and now sound more like the PC is aiming for a bar brawl.  This goes for silent just as well as voiced.   But otherwise, I really don't understand at all how a silent PC allows for greater imagination.

[Alivada]

I don't want Bioware to take inspiration from Skyrim.
I just want the writing quality to improve, DA2 felt like a fanfiction story and the romances were nothing short of awkward.
I don't want to see DA fall to a medicore series when it had such a great start.

[Meris]

Silfren wrote...

Shevy_001 wrote...

I liked the silent protagonist from DA:O a lot more, because you can imagine how your charakter will respond. Helps me for immersion.

It's far from a perfect system, and I've yet to understand how silent text provides greater room for imagination.

Its incredibly simple:

1 - There's no voice. The voice is your own, sounds the way you like, speaks with the accent you find most appropiate, speaks with the nuances you've chosen and etcetera.

2 - There are no paraphases, hence no ambiguity in what the companion actually says.

3 - Though there's a rather obvious tone and meaning behind every phrase spoken by the Warden, a same thing can be said differently, with different words, nuances and etcetera.

4 - Although the player may not choose to play the Protagonist as an avatar of their selves, the Silent Protagonist is still such as the player interacts with the story. The Voiced Protagonist is a set character that intermediates the interaction. Therefore, the player is closer to being immersed in the world than simply watching an interactive, vote by phone calling, fantasy series on TV.

EDIT: There's also a practical advantage to take into consideration. The Voice Protagonist is cheaper, both in terms of money and time. It allows for more choice and consequence, which we really should be asking for, and less railroading.

That's what came from the top of my head.

Modifié par Meris, 05 janvier 2012 - 09:40 .

[phaonica]

Instead of the DA devs asking themselves "For what reasons was Skyrim successful and how can we make DA more like that?" they should be focused on "Which aspects of DA are good and how can we make them great?" All games don't have to fit into some specific formula. DAO felt unique. There are things that it *didn't* do like other games made it *more* interesting. That's what I thought, anyway.

[argonian persona]

yaw wrote...

That was a year ago though, before Dragon Age 2 was even released. Since then DA2 has been met with a truck load of criticism and low reviews, while Skyrim has come out the best game of 2011.

Surely that's enough to make him reconsider his stance.

Him, or EA?

I didnt play DAII due to reviews, but return to a silent protagonist would be sweet. I hope this game is Origins with TES elements.

[maxernst]

phaonica wrote...

Instead of the DA devs asking themselves "For what reasons was Skyrim successful and how can we make DA more like that?" they should be focused on "Which aspects of DA are good and how can we make them great?" All games don't have to fit into some specific formula. DAO felt unique. There are things that it *didn't* do like other games made it *more* interesting. That's what I thought, anyway.

But that's exactly what Bethesda did--they made a game was that was very similar to Oblivion and refined it , and seem to have pleased their fans for the most part.  Whereas with DA2, Bioware asked not "How do we make a better Dragon Age game?" but "How do we attract gamers who might not have liked DA:O and enlarge our fanbase" and drew their cues from the Mass Effect series.  With the consequence that they won over some new fans but displeased a great many DA:O fans.  So, yes, I think Bioware can be inspired by Skyrim in the sense of Skyrim's relationship to Oblvion--they stuck closely to the formula of the previous game.

And while Skyrim's sales don't prove the marketplace necessarily prefers silent protagonists, they do show that the argument we heard ad naseum when DA2 was coming out--that nobody would buy a game with a silent protagonist in 2011, that they were a thing of the past and that "cinematic" games were the future--is nonsense.

[DreamwareStudio]

maxernst wrote...


And while Skyrim's sales don't prove the marketplace necessarily prefers silent protagonists, they do show that the argument we heard ad naseum when DA2 was coming out--that nobody would buy a game with a silent protagonist in 2011, that they were a thing of the past and that "cinematic" games were the future--is nonsense.

Yes, it is nonsense.

What I don't get is they said a game with a silent protaganist would not sale on the heels of DA:O SELLING 4.8M COPIES.

Some devs become enamored with making the RPG "current" and "cool" or blending WPRG with JPRG, forgetting that RPG is not about voiced protaganists, cinematic features, etc.  It is about a core experience.  That core experience can translate through a game a number of different ways.  Some do it with a silent protaganist (Skyrim & DA:O, for instance) while others do it with a voiced one (the Witcher 1 & 2).

Voiced or not does not make any difference whether a game is successful.  You start putting out games with a limited location (Kirkwall) with repeated areas up the wazoo, cartoonish model renders with ridiculously sized weapons that cause bodies to explode, monsters once imposing that now resemble Skeletor, elves from Avatar, no depth in the city, little immersion value at any point, no changes in that city over ten years with ninja drop and wave attacks while none of your choices make an impact on your gameplay and all told through the eyes of a narrator not your character...yeah, you do that, and you're going to be in trouble.

The narrator thing, that drives me crazy.  Like DA 2, the Witcher games have it...everything is told through someone else, and frankly, I don't like it.  It is a level of separation between the player and the game.

Whew, that was a mouthul!

Hopefully, we'll see a much improved DA 3.

Modifié par google_calasade, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:46 .

[Dave of Canada]

I don't really see Skyrim's protagonist as a representative of the strength of silence, the dovahkiin's lines really just end up being "Yes" and "No", little in-between. Skyrim doesn't try to involve the protagonist into anything, just the player to do quests.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 06 janvier 2012 - 01:01 .

[Blakes 7]

Bioware should look to out-do skyrim not just emulate them. Having multiple quest lines is something that wasn't really done in skyrim and would of added a lot. I have always advocated for having a more open world feel in bioware games. To add more quest lines and sophisticated ai bioware should drop voices for npcs and restrict voices to main characters only, having only flavour voices for npcs. Otherwise all quests become "yes/no".

Modifié par Blakes 7, 06 janvier 2012 - 01:09 .

[Morroian]

google_calasade wrote...

What I don't get is they said a game with a silent protaganist would not sale on the heels of DA:O SELLING 4.8M COPIES.

Who exactly said this?

[DreamwareStudio]

Morroian wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

What I don't get is they said a game with a silent protaganist would not sale on the heels of DA:O SELLING 4.8M COPIES.

Who exactly said this?

I forget in which interview or game promo I read this.  I think it was Laidlaw.

[DreamwareStudio]

Dave of Canada wrote...

I don't really see Skyrim's protagonist as a representative of the strength of silence, the dovahkiin's lines really just end up being "Yes" and "No", little in-between. Skyrim doesn't try to involve the protagonist into anything, just the player to do quests.

IMO, Skyrim is one of the weaker examples of a silent protaganist because of what you pointed out.  I used Skyrim as an example because 1) the game is from this year, which served the point of conversation well and 2) although it was a weaker example, Skyrim still had unbelievable sales.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Silfren wrote...

Shevy_001 wrote...

I liked the silent protagonist from DA:O a lot more, because you can imagine how your charakter will respond. Helps me for immersion.

Problem with this is that you're not imagining anything

With either the Warden or Hawke, you're choosing from a list of presets, and there are quite a few cases with Origins where I chose a dialogue option that I interpreted as diplomatic or compassionate, only to have the companion I was speaking to respond as if I'd been rude, cruel, or sarcastic.  It's far from a perfect system, and I've yet to understand how silent text provides greater room for imagination.  It's kind of pointless to imagine the tone of your Warden as gentle or helpful or whatever when not only is the companion going to take it a completely different way, but subsequent dialogues from your PC are going to follow the companion's interpretation. 

It would be better if players didn't have to click a dialogue option and just hope that they're correct in assuming how it will sound.  I.E., being able to trust that the sarcastic option will actually come across as sarcastic, and now sound more like the PC is aiming for a bar brawl.  This goes for silent just as well as voiced.   But otherwise, I really don't understand at all how a silent PC allows for greater imagination.

 I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for my Warden. I imagine my warden's response. Not only sound but complete with facial expression and body language. There is no such thing as "blank stare and emotionless" character for my warden. He is as much alive as any voice actor given. Far better because he can be my player avatar. Just because you don't see such expression doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you see wall of text in novels, I see forest as narrated by wall of texts. That imagination.

Problem with Hawke, however, developer only provide you with sound ( verbal communication ) but never give  control over emotion, facial and body expression ( non verbal communication ). Hawke has one part of communication but loose the other part to AI. This disturb me as Character personality is not solely determined by sound but also by how he response. And response is not about sound only. It's about non verbal expression too. Yes you can see forest in the picture but that's not the kind of forest I intrepret. Also paraphrasing makes it's harder to intrepret. And because it's not the same forest, therefore I can not imagine but just follow whatever the picture shows whether I like it or not. That's not imagination. 

Edit: Unless the developer can find a way how to incorporate non verbal expression into dialgue, I can't never make any character as much as I love my warden and my dragonborn. So I'm still waiting for the day I can truly roleplay my voiced actors complete with his emotions and body expression. And not just sound. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 06 janvier 2012 - 02:29 .

[In Exile]

Addai67 wrote...
I didn't try to argue that people buy Beth games because they have silent protagonist, though I do think the silent PC is part of those games' success because it fosters roleplay freedom and flexibility.  If you read my post again, I'm only taking issue with the hype over DA2's change as something that was necessitated by where games are going or whatever.  Obviously it's where Bioware's games are going.

You misunderstand. This is what you said:

"What I do hope is that they leave off the nonsense about "no one likes
the silent protagonist" because that was a dumb marketing argument to
begin with. You didn't need Skyrim to see that, just Fallout 3 or FNV. "

The implication is that the success of Skyrim could somehow indicate a like or dislike of the silent PC. My point that's just an incorrent way to reason. It would be like inferring the success of ME means that people do like the VO. Yet there are people (yourself, or Sylvius, or Xewaka) who have purchased ME games despite it.

[In Exile]

[quote]Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...
 I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for my Warden. I imagine my warden's response. Not only sound but complete with facial expression and body language. There is no such thing as "blank stare and emotionless" character for my warden. He is as much alive as any voice actor given. Far better because he can be my player avatar. Just because you don't see such expression doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you see wall of text in novels, I see forest as narrated by wall of texts. That imagination.
[/quote]

When I read novels, I see things like "said angrily" and "in a gruff tone" and "his voice was hoarse".

Novels are many things, and they are certainly imaginative, but they're not amibigous in terms of how lines are typically spoken by characters.

[Morroian]

google_calasade wrote...

Morroian wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

What I don't get is they said a game with a silent protaganist would not sale on the heels of DA:O SELLING 4.8M COPIES.

Who exactly said this?

I forget in which interview or game promo I read this.  I think it was Laidlaw.

Silverman or even the Doctors I can believe but not Laidlaw.

[HiroVoid]

In Exile wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
I didn't try to argue that people buy Beth games because they have silent protagonist, though I do think the silent PC is part of those games' success because it fosters roleplay freedom and flexibility.  If you read my post again, I'm only taking issue with the hype over DA2's change as something that was necessitated by where games are going or whatever.  Obviously it's where Bioware's games are going.

You misunderstand. This is what you said:

"What I do hope is that they leave off the nonsense about "no one likes
the silent protagonist" because that was a dumb marketing argument to
begin with. You didn't need Skyrim to see that, just Fallout 3 or FNV. "

The implication is that the success of Skyrim could somehow indicate a like or dislike of the silent PC. My point that's just an incorrent way to reason. It would be like inferring the success of ME means that people do like the VO. Yet there are people (yourself, or Sylvius, or Xewaka) who have purchased ME games despite it.

I think the main point is basically saying that people won't buy games with silent protagonists is dumb, and that it's a feature of the past.  It's about as lame as the excuse as the people who said Bioware had to do something drastically differentt because a game like Origins wouldn't sell.....which Origins already proved wrong.

[Morroian]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

I can't speak for everyone but I can speak for my Warden. I imagine my warden's response. Not only sound but complete with facial expression and body language. There is no such thing as "blank stare and emotionless" character for my warden. He is as much alive as any voice actor given. Far better because he can be my player avatar. Just because you don't see such expression doesn't mean it doesn't exist. If you see wall of text in novels, I see forest as narrated by wall of texts. That imagination.

Problem with Hawke, however, developer only provide you with sound ( verbal communication ) but never give  control over emotion, facial and body expression ( non verbal communication ). Hawke has one part of communication but loose the other part to AI. This disturb me as Character personality is not solely determined by sound but also by how he response. And response is not about sound only. It's about non verbal expression too. Yes you can see forest in the picture but that's not the kind of forest I intrepret. Also paraphrasing makes it's harder to intrepret. And because it's not the same forest, therefore I can not imagine but just follow whatever the picture shows whether I like it or not. That's not imagination. 

Edit: Unless the developer can find a way how to incorporate non verbal expression into dialgue, I can't never make any character as much as I love my warden and my dragonborn. So I'm still waiting for the day I can truly roleplay my voiced actors complete with his emotions and body expression. And not just sound. 

You say its not about sound but also non verbal expression yet you can ignore what is going on onscreen in DAO, the 1000 yard stare and emotionless expression is right in front of you, what do you turn away? If you can ignore that lack of expression why can't you do the same with VO? 

[Sacred_Fantasy]

In Exile wrote...

When I read novels, I see things like "said angrily" and "in a gruff tone" and "his voice was hoarse".

Novels are many things, and they are certainly imaginative, but they're not amibigous in terms of how lines are typically spoken by characters.

Understood. Thank you In Exile. I never thought it that way.
When I see things like "said angrily," I imagine the character facial and body  expression with angry tones, How the character look when he "said angrily" is ambigous enough for me. However, I can't imagine "gruff" and "hoarse" because they are intangible. LOL 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 06 janvier 2012 - 03:32 .

[DreamwareStudio]

Morroian wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

Morroian wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

What I don't get is they said a game with a silent protaganist would not sale on the heels of DA:O SELLING 4.8M COPIES.

Who exactly said this?

I forget in which interview or game promo I read this.  I think it was Laidlaw.

Silverman or even the Doctors I can believe but not Laidlaw.

Silverman, the Doctors, and Laidlaw all made some pretty bad statements, especially Laidlaw when responding to how DA 2 was not well received by game buyers, so I'm unsure really why you would have a hard time believing it was Laidlaw.  Him, Silverman, or the Doctors makes no difference.  It was still said.

I am fairly certain, however, it was him in a conversation about what he thought could be improved upon regarding Origins.  I'll try and google it again.

[Aaleel]

HiroVoid wrote...

I think the main point is basically saying that people won't buy games with silent protagonists is dumb, and that it's a feature of the past.  It's about as lame as the excuse as the people who said Bioware had to do something drastically differentt because a game like Origins wouldn't sell.....which Origins already proved wrong.

I think the problem was that Bioware thought Origins wouldn't do well.  You figure DA2 has been out what 10 months.  Origins just turned 2 years old in Nov.  That just blows my mind every time I think of it.

By the time Origins proved to be the success it was, they would have already been some months into DA2 development.  They had already decided most of these changes before any fan feedback or sales numbers, but by then it was probably too late to do a 180 of the fundemental things they had decided to to do with DA2.  Knowles talked about his problem with the new direction months before Origins even hit the shelves.

The course had already been set.