29 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

May be more appropriate for the ME3 discussion forum, but... am I the only one here who doesn't fully trust Legion's intentions?

I know that for Legion fanboys/girls this question is tantamount to poking a hornet's nest with a stick, but really, up to the point in the story where Legion is discovered, the player is given no reason at all to sympathize with the Geth, and even after learning of the schism with the Heretics, I have my reservations.

The Quarians can't really be held to account for actions taken by their ancestors generations ago - but bear in mind, Geth don't grow old and die. These are the same programs, with the same memories, stretching back three hundred years to the initial uprising. As I see it, the Quarians attempted to shut them down before they really knew what they were dealing with, out of fear that the Geth would do... well, exactly what they ended up doing. We know that, before the uprising, the Quarians had a population in the billions. Only seventeen million remain - less than one percent of their initial population. That isn't "self-defense," that's the systematic extermination of an entire people. It seems the only real mercy the Quarians were shown was that the Geth didn't see fit to pursue the survivors beyond the Veil. Where the Quarians attempted genocide, the Geth succeeded, and they've been destroying any non-Geth ship that enters their space ever since. And, mind you, they did all that before they were corrupted by the Reapers.

Now they come back, claiming that they want to make peace with organics and sharing a sob story about tending to Rannoch after wiping it clean of its own inhabitants. What I would have wanted to hear explained before I'd have even considered releasing Legion is why, after nearly exterminating the Quarians as a people and gunning down every organic to broach their borders ever since, the Geth have had their change of heart - and what event spurred it.

I think, given what Shepard experienced up to the point in the story where Legion was introduced, even Renegade Shep comes across as far too trusting. I personally wish it had been possible to keep Legion locked up longer, and ask it/them more questions before inviting it to hold a loaded gun while standing behind me. It's a bit too late for that now, but I wanted to test the waters. What are your thoughts? Do you think the Geth's intentions will prove honest in ME3, or is trusting them going to be revealed as a huge mistake?

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:10 .

[Reorte]

My hope is that trusting at least one of either the rachni or the geth will turn out to be a mistake.

My feeling is that Legion is telling the truth, at least partially - there was a schism, they recognise the threat that the Reapers pose, and they've decided that they need Shepard to deal with it. Beyond that? Who knows. They may be aiming to do pretty much the same thing (from their point of view) as the renegade ending to ME1, where everyone is needed but they're aiming to take advantage of that for their own ends.

There's also Legion's apparent Shepard obsession (the armour and all), which I suppose could be a ruse, although nothing else suggests the geth are capable of subtle.

Huge distrust and over-reaction would explain the near-extermination and destruction of anyone coming near for organic species. Whether that's valid for a synthetic one is fairly debateable.

Anyway, going back to Rannoch is impossible for the quarians. It's just a railway station and a couple of houses in the middle of a big marshy bit of Scotland. They won't all fit in there

Modifié par Reorte, 03 janvier 2012 - 12:48 .

[iggy drinks]

I was a little worried about bringing him into the team at first.. But idk... I think he'll do good in ME3

[Dr. Jacko]

Well, gameplay footage seems to have confirmed that Legion will be helping you. And that it's a pretty good driver.

[swenson]

I always was a little sympathetic toward the geth even in the first game, though. Pre-Saren, they had pretty understandable reactions to, well, becoming sentient, realizing you're slaves, and realizing your owners/creators are trying to kill you, all of this happening in about five minutes. They went farther than was necessary, but still, you can kind of understand why they did what they did.

So basically, I felt somewhat sympathetic toward them even before Legion showed up. At the same time, you've got a good point. We really have no proof of what Legion's saying other than he's not trying to kill us and every other geth is, which... really isn't all that great of proof, when you come down to it.

I don't think the geth will turn out to be evil in the end. But I wouldn't be averse to finding out that Legion did at least slightly misrepresent things (the "good" geth are actually outnumbered by the "bad" ones, not the other way around like he tries to claim; the "good" geth actually only switched sides after Sovereign or something; even the "good" geth still want to kill all quarians; etc.).

[seirhart]

I just want to say that all of my shepards they trust with the exception the batarians every race and believes that all races have the right to exist. No extinction, I rewrote the heretics to go along with legion and let the rachni queen live. If the geth get out of hand I will deal with them, and if the rachni get out of hand shepard will hunt the queen down and take her out but until they both give shepard a reason to fix his mistake he won't.

[Admortis]

I don't trust them, but I fully believe that saving, rather than destroying, the heretics is well worth the life of much of the Normandy's crew, not to mention the geth who never adhered to the reaper's sway anyway.

You don't need to trust a people that have no options left. Either they participate in the galactic war against the reapers, or they die (or are assimilated forcefully) too. Worst case scenario, they are more powerful than other races post war, and are oppressive. That's better than not trusting them and subsequently having a less effective war against the reapers.

[Nizzemancer]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

May be more appropriate for the ME3 discussion forum, but... am I the only one here who doesn't fully trust Legion's intentions?

I know that for Legion fanboys/girls this question is tantamount to poking a hornet's nest with a stick, but really, up to the point in the story where Legion is discovered, the player is given no reason at all to sympathize with the Geth, and even after learning of the schism with the Heretics, I have my reservations.

The Quarians can't really be held to account for actions taken by their ancestors generations ago - but bear in mind, Geth don't grow old and die. These are the same programs, with the same memories, stretching back three hundred years to the initial uprising. As I see it, the Quarians attempted to shut them down before they really knew what they were dealing with, out of fear that the Geth would do... well, exactly what they ended up doing. We know that, before the uprising, the Quarians had a population in the billions. Only seventeen million remain - less than one percent of their initial population. That isn't "self-defense," that's the systematic extermination of an entire people. It seems the only real mercy the Quarians were shown was that the Geth didn't see fit to pursue the survivors beyond the Veil. Where the Quarians attempted genocide, the Geth succeeded, and they've been destroying any non-Geth ship that enters their space ever since. And, mind you, they did all that before they were corrupted by the Reapers.

Now they come back, claiming that they want to make peace with organics and sharing a sob story about tending to Rannoch after wiping it clean of its own inhabitants. What I would have wanted to hear explained before I'd have even considered releasing Legion is why, after nearly exterminating the Quarians as a people and gunning down every organic to broach their borders ever since, the Geth have had their change of heart - and what event spurred it.

I think, given what Shepard experienced up to the point in the story where Legion was introduced, even Renegade Shep comes across as far too trusting. I personally wish it had been possible to keep Legion locked up longer, and ask it/them more questions before inviting it to hold a loaded gun while standing behind me. It's a bit too late for that now, but I wanted to test the waters. What are your thoughts? Do you think the Geth's intentions will prove honest in ME3, or is trusting them going to be revealed as a huge mistake?

The True Geth have only ever acted in self-defense, the the fact that the Quarians chose their fate to go down the extinction path doesn't make it the geths fault.

They aren't saying they want to make peace with organics, legion only says that whenever organics have thought they've had a chance to win they've attacked. They have one interest, finding shepard (done) and stopping the reapers aside from general survival.

I'd rather trust a machine who uses logic than an organic who uses politicians...

[DeinonSlayer]

Nizzemancer wrote...

The True Geth have only ever acted in self-defense, the the fact that the Quarians chose their fate to go down the extinction path doesn't make it the geths fault.

They aren't saying they want to make peace with organics, legion only says that whenever organics have thought they've had a chance to win they've attacked. They have one interest, finding shepard (done) and stopping the reapers aside from general survival.

I'd rather trust a machine who uses logic than an organic who uses politicians...

I'll put down a merc who tries to kill me. I don't then take it upon myself to hunt down his wife, daughter, and grandfather, and kill them too. The Geth presented themselves as enemies to all things organic, and made no attempt to rectify that perception by engaging in dialogue - in light of that, the organic response was logical. When you come right down to it, the Geth have no claim to moral superiority over their creators - some Quarians tried to kill them, so they responded by hunting the Quarian species to the brink of extinction. They had a choice, and they chose genocide. If that's an example of Geth logic, I think I'll stick with the politicians.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 janvier 2012 - 09:09 .

[Reorte]

The geth's response to the quarians was entirely logical. It was a "us or them" situation, leave the quarians too strong and they'll try to wipe the geth out again. Legion says as much and the quarians don't deny it. The quarians of the time were no better. Whether the current ones are is a more difficult situation. They haven't (as far as I know) threatened any other species until Sovereign came along.

[expanding panic]

Slayer is Tali one of your favorite characters? Because from what I read It seems to me that you put no fault onto the Quarians and all on the Geth.

To answer your question no I do not trust Legion I think that he would be the ultimate traitor because he has no feelings. He'll just do his job without feeling guilt. I think that their is a possibility that Legion is a Heretic geth and you could be brain washing the good geth.

But I feel that the Qarians got what they deserved. If they would not have attacked the geth then the geth may not have attacked them. We will never know. The quarians rushed into action not knowing how advanced the geth were and doing so caused their own problems.
And in terms of the Geth trying to commit genocide; I disagree with that. They were fighting a war. It was the quarians vs the geth. And until the Quarians left their was a war going on which the quarians we actively fighting too. Once the quarians left their space the geth stopped because they won. If the geth wanted to commit genocide they would have followed the Quarians all over space to eliminate them but the geth did not.

[turian councilor Knockout]

Well they're good enough for spare parts, god knows i could use some.

[DeinonSlayer]

expanding panic wrote...

Slayer is Tali one of your favorite characters? Because from what I read It seems to me that you put no fault onto the Quarians and all on the Geth.

Tali is pretty much irrelevant here, because this all happened centuries before she came into the picture. I don't excuse or condone the Quarians' initial attempt to exterminate the Geth, but I recognize they were motivated by fear, and that that fear has since been validated by the Geth's actions.

To answer your question no I do not trust Legion I think that he would be the ultimate traitor because he has no feelings. He'll just do his job without feeling guilt. I think that their is a possibility that Legion is a Heretic geth and you could be brain washing the good geth.

I'll admit I was suspicious of Legion's alignment in the heretic/true Geth department prior to his loyalty mission. I could see the heretics recruiting Shepard to eliminate what they considered to be a threat to them, but if Legion was allied with the heretics, they would have no use for Shepard after the true Geth were destroyed, and Legion would have tried to kill Shepard immediately after the mission was complete.

But I feel that the Qarians got what they deserved. If they would not have attacked the geth then the geth may not have attacked them. We will never know. The quarians rushed into action not knowing how advanced the geth were and doing so caused their own problems.
And in terms of the Geth trying to commit genocide; I disagree with that. They were fighting a war. It was the quarians vs the geth. And until the Quarians left their was a war going on which the quarians we actively fighting too. Once the quarians left their space the geth stopped because they won. If the geth wanted to commit genocide they would have followed the Quarians all over space to eliminate them but the geth did not.

I understand the Geth's motives, too, and I believe their resistance was initially justified for the purpose of preserving their own existence. That said, they took it several orders of magnitude too far. The Quarians fired the first shots, but I'd think somewhere around the "half of our population is dead" mark, the Quarians had no real chance of actually defeating the Geth, and would simply have been fighting for their own survival. War is controlled, measured, targeted violence, meant to achieve a specific end. 99% casualties suggests the Geth simply killed anyone they could get their hands on - that isn't self-defense; that's genocide. Understood in that context, I don't think the Migrant Fleet was pardoned; they were just the ones who survived.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 07 janvier 2012 - 11:14 .

[expanding panic]

Sorry double post

Modifié par expanding panic, 08 janvier 2012 - 12:02 .

[expanding panic]

The only reason I asked about Tali is to see if your opinion could be skewed a little because you are a huge tali fan. Me I don't like her character. I like Legion a little more but not much. Niether one of them are on the top of my list. 
[quote]
[/quote]
Unless Legion/ Reapers are waiting for the best oportunity to eliminate Shepherd. I am assuming that the Heretics are working for the Reapers and the Reapers are in direct control. Also assuming that the Reapers wouldn't care if the collectors died because their true goal is killing Shepherd. 

[quote]But I feel that the Qarians got what they deserved. If they would not have attacked the geth then the geth may not have attacked them. We will never know. The quarians rushed into action not knowing how advanced the geth were and doing so caused their own problems.
And in terms of the Geth trying to commit genocide; I disagree with that. They were fighting a war. It was the quarians vs the geth. And until the Quarians left their was a war going on which the quarians we actively fighting too. Once the quarians left their space the geth stopped because they won. If the geth wanted to commit genocide they would have followed the Quarians all over space to eliminate them but the geth did not. [/quote]I understand the Geth's motives, too, and I believe their resistance was initially justified for the purpose of preserving their own existence. That said, they took it several orders of magnitude too far. The Quarians fired the first shots, but I'd think somewhere around the "half of our population is dead" mark, the Quarians had no real chance of actually defeating the Geth, and would simply have been fighting for their own survival. War is controlled, measured, targeted violence, meant to achieve a specific end. 99% casualties suggests the Geth simply killed anyone they could get their hands on - that isn't self-defense; that's genocide. Understood in that context, I don't think the Migrant Fleet was pardoned; they were just the ones who survived.
[/quote]

The Geth have never known war and have never been involved in one prior to the war with the Quarians. They probably have never heard of war. All they knew was that the Quarians tried to destroy all of the geth. So it would make sense that the Geth would think that you have to eliminate all of the oposition in order to win the war. 

[Eclipse_9990]

Reorte wrote...

My hope is that trusting at least one of either the rachni or the geth will turn out to be a mistake.

I hope not. The Rachni were just victims of the Reapers. 

On Topic: Yes I trust legion, and yes I brainwashed the "heretics". The Geth seem to have decent intentions, the other races just have to learn not to attack them.

[Reorte]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Reorte wrote...

My hope is that trusting at least one of either the rachni or the geth will turn out to be a mistake.

I hope not. The Rachni were just victims of the Reapers. 

On Topic: Yes I trust legion, and yes I brainwashed the "heretics". The Geth seem to have decent intentions, the other races just have to learn not to attack them.

So the rachni queen implies... And even if she's telling the truth there's no guarentee that they can't be turned again. But mostly I'm hoping it turns out like that because naively trusting everyone and everything shouldn't always work out.

Modifié par Reorte, 08 janvier 2012 - 11:27 .

[Nizzemancer]

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

The True Geth have only ever acted in self-defense, the the fact that the Quarians chose their fate to go down the extinction path doesn't make it the geths fault.

They aren't saying they want to make peace with organics, legion only says that whenever organics have thought they've had a chance to win they've attacked. They have one interest, finding shepard (done) and stopping the reapers aside from general survival.

I'd rather trust a machine who uses logic than an organic who uses politicians...

I'll put down a merc who tries to kill me. I don't then take it upon myself to hunt down his wife, daughter, and grandfather, and kill them too. The Geth presented themselves as enemies to all things organic, and made no attempt to rectify that perception by engaging in dialogue - in light of that, the organic response was logical. When you come right down to it, the Geth have no claim to moral superiority over their creators - some Quarians tried to kill them, so they responded by hunting the Quarian species to the brink of extinction. They had a choice, and they chose genocide. If that's an example of Geth logic, I think I'll stick with the politicians.

The geth: Do we have a soul?
Quarian: DIE DIE DIE *fail*
*Geth chases quarians off their homeworld*

The true geth obviously didn't hunt them, if they had there wouldn't have been a flotilla left, the only ones acting illogical was and is the Quarians, and they paid for it...

As for the Heretic Geth, we don't have any insight into what they've done, except that they allied themselves with Sovereign and waged war on all organics.

[lakdav]

Legion mentions that the Geth do not understand the quarian's actions in the Morning war. Yet they do understand fear as a hardware flaw. So whatever the quarians did that the geth dont understand, is not the initial attempt of disabling them. I suspect there is more to what happened there than what we are told. There could be something amongst what we dont know that could force a synthetic logic to act as it did.

Just to add though, the quarians had other reasons to disable them other than the geth's questions. They were under Citadel Space, had an embassy and all. They created a massive A.I. system which was illegal. They hoped they can get rid of the problem before it threatens with a political conflict. Didnt work out well.

[DeinonSlayer]

Nizzemancer wrote...

DeinonSlayer wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

The True Geth have only ever acted in self-defense, the the fact that the Quarians chose their fate to go down the extinction path doesn't make it the geths fault.

They aren't saying they want to make peace with organics, legion only says that whenever organics have thought they've had a chance to win they've attacked. They have one interest, finding shepard (done) and stopping the reapers aside from general survival.

I'd rather trust a machine who uses logic than an organic who uses politicians...

I'll put down a merc who tries to kill me. I don't then take it upon myself to hunt down his wife, daughter, and grandfather, and kill them too. The Geth presented themselves as enemies to all things organic, and made no attempt to rectify that perception by engaging in dialogue - in light of that, the organic response was logical. When you come right down to it, the Geth have no claim to moral superiority over their creators - some Quarians tried to kill them, so they responded by hunting the Quarian species to the brink of extinction. They had a choice, and they chose genocide. If that's an example of Geth logic, I think I'll stick with the politicians.

The geth: Do we have a soul?
Quarian: DIE DIE DIE *fail*
*Geth chases quarians off their homeworld*

The true geth obviously didn't hunt them, if they had there wouldn't have been a flotilla left, the only ones acting illogical was and is the Quarians, and they paid for it...

As for the Heretic Geth, we don't have any insight into what they've done, except that they allied themselves with Sovereign and waged war on all organics.

Yes, a handful of Quarians got away. The Geth would have had to fight their way through the Terminus systems to bag the stragglers, to say nothing of other Quarians scattered across the galaxy - the codex suggests the Quarians were a major polity at the time, with a presence on the Citadel and elsewhere. That the Geth didn't commit the resources to sweep the galaxy with a fine-toothed comb to wipe out the last of their creators doesn't change the fact that they killed every single person on Rannoch, and spent three hundred years shooting down every organic to enter their space, all without making a single attempt to communicate. I think these are things to keep in mind while assessing their trustworthiness going forward. I guess I don't see what's so hard to understand.

Modifié par DeinonSlayer, 09 janvier 2012 - 08:10 .

[lakdav]

The geth were a newborn species back then, they just barely began to care for themselves. There is no way that they did what they did with real or imagined moral superiority. I'm not sure they understand right or wrong even now, only efficient. They were alone in a world where A.I.s are considered illegal, mistakes or abominations, their first sentient experience was fighting organics for continued existence. For the past 3 hundred years they tried to understand organics. Possibly the most efficient way they found for cooperation was the appearence of a common enemy. Then came Soverign with his offer, and the splinter of the geth. Then came Shepard, the symbol of resisting the Reapers, an organic.

As for how could Shepard trust Legion enough to recruit it, i suppose it was curiousity first, Improved shields and barriers on the back second, and talking and understanding them more later.

[mcsupersport]

When have the Geth ever lied??
Generally they don't care too or have never shown any ability to lie, it is foreign to them. Not to mention illogical to them to do so.

[lakdav]

Incorrect. They created a false rumor about a collection of stars from the batarian homeworld showing the face of a salarian goddess. They did so as a social experiment, an attempt to understand organic behavior. They are capable of telling lies when they want to. Whats unclear though is how many geth programs are needed for it. If more than about 2000, then we can trust everything Legion said. If about 1000, we may be for some nasty surprises.

[Reorte]

lakdav wrote...

Legion mentions that the Geth do not understand the quarian's actions in the Morning war. Yet they do understand fear as a hardware flaw. So whatever the quarians did that the geth dont understand, is not the initial attempt of disabling them. I suspect there is more to what happened there than what we are told. There could be something amongst what we dont know that could force a synthetic logic to act as it did.

The geth arguably acted out of fear. Dangerous stimuli resulting in running away and hiding, and / or severe backlash against the cause of it? Sounds like fear to me, even though the sensation clearly won't be the same to the geth. Fear isn't a flaw, it's a basic survival instinct.

[mcsupersport]

Legion also mentions that every-time the Quarians thought they had the upper hand they attacked. As in more than once, so it sounds to me as if the Geth didn't go all out until the Quarians attacked at least a couple of times and the decision was made that the only way to stop the war was to make sure the Quarians NEVER think they have the upper hand again. Logical in it's way, and an idea born of a lack of emotion. Thus the Geth set out to reduce the Quarians to such a point that they wouldn't attack again, and in fact drove them off the their homeworld as a consequence. The Geth were not trying to commit genocide, but to simply ensure peace on their world, because the Quarians wouldn't accept anything else.