394 réponses à ce sujet

[AgitatedLemon]

Abraham_uk wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...
And what are the big choices you make in Diablo? Your class, equipment and which enemy you kill first.
You don't need to have massive, world changing decisions to have an RPG.

Look at WoW.

Like I said before, it's an RPG, whether it's PnP, stat-based (Which Diablo is), or action oriented (Like ME is)

I can't talk about Wow, I never played it. Though I played EQ2, DAoC, AoC. They are MMORPGs but the RPG only comes from joining RPG communities and roleplaying with other players. The game itself offers quests, but no RPG.

Apart from having the various means to combat, WoW is almost a Bethesda clone.

Hell, you could stretch that and say the same for TOR.

Your character has no backstory - fresh for in-world RP'ing purposes.

You interact with other people in the world - be it NPC's or players.

(If you care about these things) You crunch numbers and min/max your gear for your role - just like in Diablo/DotA, or other similar games.

The only other major difference is the group content. I don't know of any Bethesda Multiplayer games.

You saying that ME, MMO's, Diablo, and the like aren't RPG's really stands against your intelligence. They're all different kinds of RPG, but they are RPG, what can you not understand?

World of Warcraft is a Bethesda clone? I've played Bethesda games such as Fallout 3 and Elderscrolls Oblivion but I've never played any World of Warcraft games. How is World of Warcraft a Bethesda clone?

Why is there still a debate whether or not Mass Effect is an RPG?

Here is an amusing thread. Enjoy


http://social.biowar...3/index/8775508

That was a joke, perhaps a bit too subtle.

[AlexXIV]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
It sounds like you're trying to cement that just because a game like WoW has sword slashing, or ME has shooting, that it isn't an RPG.

Wow RPG does not force you to kill someone in order to move a plot. Because plots are player made anyway. MMORPGs are a completely different thing, I would not even compare them to single player games. It's like a different genre. I am saying if a game forces me to kill enemies in every single quest I do, then it is an action RPG. Because the action (battle) is mandatory. If I can solve quests in alternative ways, with non combat skills, it is a sign for a RPG. That's what. You could even count LIs. Because LIs are also quests just that you don't need to kill anyone. Same with fetch quests. As long as you can fetch things without having to kill. What bothers me most is that in RPGs nowadays you have to kill thousands of people to the end. Even if you play a 'peaceful' character. If you look at ME, the most paragon player is still someone with a bodycount of a massmurderer.

[In Exile]

AlexXIV wrote...
To have my own view on what an RPG is stands against my intelligence? Also I never said MMORPGs are not RPGs. But if you play only single player content (all alone) you don't have more RPG than ... say ... Madden's. Which means in MMORPGs the RPG comes from players, not the content as such. The only exception is maybe places to RP in and other RPG stuff like clothes, emotes, etc.

Until you play TOR. TOR is absolutely just a Bioware RPG online.

[AlexXIV]

[quote]AgitatedLemon wrote...

[quote]Abraham_uk wrote...

[quote]AgitatedLemon wrote...
I can't talk about Wow, I never played it. Though I played EQ2, DAoC, AoC. They are MMORPGs but the RPG only comes from joining RPG communities and roleplaying with other players. The game itself offers quests, but no RPG.[/quote]

Apart from having the various means to combat, WoW is almost a Bethesda clone.

Hell, you could stretch that and say the same for TOR.

Your character has no backstory - fresh for in-world RP'ing purposes.

You interact with other people in the world - be it NPC's or players.

(If you care about these things) You crunch numbers and min/max your gear for your role - just like in Diablo/DotA, or other similar games.

The only other major difference is the group content. I don't know of any Bethesda Multiplayer games.

You saying that ME, MMO's, Diablo, and the like aren't RPG's really stands against your intelligence. They're all different kinds of RPG, but they are RPG, what can you not understand?

[/quote]

World of Warcraft is a Bethesda clone? I've played Bethesda games such as Fallout 3 and Elderscrolls Oblivion but I've never played any World of Warcraft games. How is World of Warcraft a Bethesda clone?

Why is there still a debate whether or not Mass Effect is an RPG?

Here is an amusing thread. Enjoy


http://social.biowar...3/index/8775508
[/quote]

That was a joke, perhaps a bit too subtle.

[/quote]
Perhaps too sublte for someone who doesn't know WoW. Because I don't and I didn't get the joke either.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 janvier 2012 - 07:42 .

[1136342t54_]

In Exile wrote...

Obsidian doesn't have a structure. They're really good about that. To me, though, a game suffers very strongly as an RPG when the designers take control of a character away from you. I think giving the character secret knowledge the player doesn't have and then making the player make decisions based on that is not good.

ME is just not a game like that. We know about Elysium etc. upfront and then the entire game takes place in the present. Even the Prothean vision was always nonsense for Shepard and us.

So? RPGs don't always have to be about the player specifically making their own character. It can partially be based off of a predetermined background but also with the player actually deciding on how that shaped their character and what type of person it turned them into.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
That's all the knowledge I require, since in the end I only have whatever speech options the devs wrote for me, whether in KotOR or ME.

Even if this is true, you don't know what those options are in ME

This simply wasn't my experience. The only time I picked a wrong option in ME1 was during the conversation with Ash and Kaidan on the Citadel during the Destiny Ascension flyby. Because I didn't understand how Bio was handling Renegade options, I mistakenly picked that option thinking that Shepard was going to joke rather than issue an actual rebuke.

There was also an issue with the Council endgame choice in a pure Paragon playthrough. While I agreed with the effect of the decision, Shepard's speech implied a judgment that I had not intended her to make -- "attempt to do X"is not the same as "X is the only thing that matters."

But these were the only cases.

[AlexXIV]

In Exile wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
To have my own view on what an RPG is stands against my intelligence? Also I never said MMORPGs are not RPGs. But if you play only single player content (all alone) you don't have more RPG than ... say ... Madden's. Which means in MMORPGs the RPG comes from players, not the content as such. The only exception is maybe places to RP in and other RPG stuff like clothes, emotes, etc.

Until you play TOR. TOR is absolutely just a Bioware RPG online.

I haven't yet, and I heard that. It was actually topic before launch already. That it is a single player game with MMORPG endgame though not enough to hold real MMORPGers (hardcore raiders, etc.).

Anyway I plan to try TOR some time. Probably in a month or two when the first crowd of people quit and things are more relaxed and polished.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 janvier 2012 - 07:46 .

[In Exile]

1136342t54 wrote...

So? RPGs don't always have to be about the player specifically making their own character. It can partially be based off of a predetermined background but also with the player actually deciding on how that shaped their character and what type of person it turned them into.

But that's my point. You're not really shaping a character in that game. It would be one thing if the game wasn't entirely about that past and how that past is influencing the players future. But the whole game is about it. Malachor V and how the Exile lost the connection to the force is the thing.

[AlanC9]

1136342t54 wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Obsidian doesn't have a structure. They're really good about that. To me, though, a game suffers very strongly as an RPG when the designers take control of a character away from you. I think giving the character secret knowledge the player doesn't have and then making the player make decisions based on that is not good.

ME is just not a game like that. We know about Elysium etc. upfront and then the entire game takes place in the present. Even the Prothean vision was always nonsense for Shepard and us.

So? RPGs don't always have to be about the player specifically making their own character. It can partially be based off of a predetermined background but also with the player actually deciding on how that shaped their character and what type of person it turned them into.

But I think In Exile's point is that we can't play a character if we don't know that character. The Witcher doesn't spring surprises on you about Geralt's motivations, but KotOR 2 does spring a surprise on you about the Exile's motivations.

Edit: Ninja'd -- but at  least I was right.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 janvier 2012 - 07:47 .

[In Exile]

AlexXIV wrote...
I haven't yet, and I heard that. It was actually topic before launch already. That it is a single player game with MMORPG endgame though not enough to hold real MMORPGers (hardcore raiders, etc.).

Anyway I plan to try TOR some time. Probably in a month or two when the first crowd of people quit and things are more relaxed and polished.

I can't speak to that. But it is enough to get someone like me who would never otherwise touch an MMORPG to try it out and consider paying for it, so we'll see if TOR can stay afloat for some time.

I personally can't see it, because I happen to like game, and my tastes are always something that do not fit well with the genre, so it's usually a kiss of death. ME being the exception so far.

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

But I think In Exile's point is that we can't play a character if we don't know that character. The Witcher doesn't spring surprises on you about Geralt's motivations, but KotOR 2 does spring a surprise on you about the Exile's motivations.

Edit: Ninja'd -- but at  least I was right.

The problem is that KotOR2 takes it one step further than a game like Mass Effect in giving your character a background. It's one thing to be the last of the Jedi, but the game never tells me the context. Maybe I'm role-playing a character who feels somewhat remorseful for my actions. Of course, when we're finally given the flashback to the actual trial, it's revealed that the Council was pretty much jerks to the Exile, in which case I might never have made any of those role-playing decisions to be a repentant Ex-Jedi.

[Stalker]

This started as a simple question of someone who asked if he should buy Mass Effect.... but what am I saying, this was likely to happen...

[Abraham_uk]

Mr Massakka wrote...

This started as a simple question of someone who asked if he should buy Mass Effect.... but what am I saying, this was likely to happen...

By now the question has been answered but here is where I stand.

Some people say Mass Effect is an RPG some people say it isn't. Bioware
doesn't set out to make RPG's. People define Bioware games as RPG's.

Mass Effect's "Western RPG" elements:
Having
RPG elements doesn't make a game an RPG, but all of the following are
associated with RPG's. Certain elements such as cinematic cutscenes can
be seen in non RPG games such as Modern Warfare


Create a character: With background, gender, appearance and class type chosen.

Leveling up: Up to 60 levels in ME 1 and 30 in ME 2.

Interacting with characters
Making decisions that have an affect on the plot
Very heavy on story telling (debatable whether this one counts)
Cutscenes (debatable whether this one counts)
Lore and codexes (debatable whether this one counts)
Choosing a team for each mission.
Each character having a backstory (debatable)
Exploration of Galaxy.
Galaxy map as an overworld.
Decisions made have consequences.
The way you build your characters affects the choices available to you in combat.
Mass Effect 1 had looting and plenty of weapons and armour to choose from.

It's up to you whether or not you want to call Mass Effect an RPG, but I certainly do.



It is funny how threads transform into debates about the nature of MMO RPGs and whether or not World of Warcraft Qualifies.

[AlexXIV]

jreezy wrote...

Mr Massakka wrote...

This started as a simple question of someone who asked if he should buy Mass Effect.... but what am I saying, this was likely to happen...

Not only a simple question of "if he should buy Mass Effect". When you're asking whether something is an RPG or not that is when this is likely to happen.

Basically if your post contains the acronym RPG then it is already a troll post/flamebait Gotta love it.

[AlanC9]

Mr Massakka wrote...

This started as a simple question of someone who asked if he should buy Mass Effect.... but what am I saying, this was likely to happen...

I'm just waiting for the OP to come back and tell us if the dialogue wheel is a dealbreaker for him.

[log1x_dr4g0n]

happy_daiz wrote...

log1x_dr4g0n wrote...

I bet i could make myself a pizza, come back, and this thread will still be going...

I'm sure you're right.

I'm so right.

[PaulSX]

It's a role playing drama, if people are so hate to call ME2 RPG

[King Minos]

Who ever says customising your weapons in ME3 is an rpg feature is an idiot. Because if you believe that then Call of Duty 4 and upward is more of an rpg than the entire Mass Effect series

[1136342t54_]

In Exile wrote...
But that's my point. You're not really shaping a character in that game. It would be one thing if the game wasn't entirely about that past and how that past is influencing the players future. But the whole game is about it. Malachor V and how the Exile lost the connection to the force is the thing.

Again so what? Your basically arguing against me likeing to play someone who is partially predetermined. I already explained the reason why the other way isn't bad. I would state a flaw in that sort of roleplay but it was already done.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

So? RPGs don't always have to be about the player specifically making their own character.

This has long been my position, as well.

As such, either the game needs to let us define the character ourselves, or it needs to give us exhaustive detail of the pre-written background.

Since the cost of providing that exhaustive detail would be, I think, prohibitive, the only viable option is a player-defined character.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 03 janvier 2012 - 08:03 .

[1136342t54_]

AlexXIV wrote...
Basically if your post contains the acronym RPG then it is already a troll post/flamebait Gotta love it.

To be honest this thread is a perfect way to basically troll if it was the intention. 

[TheKillerAngel]

nitefyre410 wrote...

and now the endless debate.. that will never end starts again. 

Il Divo wrote...



Honestly, DA2 has all the things you

listed. It just doesn't do them well, which differentiates between a

good RPG and a bad RPG. If an fps has bad shooting mechanics, do we

really say it's not an fps?

 



No
because we hate fps they are just for stupid frat boys the "COD crowd"
and are too easy for use hardcore game players. They are are made for
the simple minded console players (Ingoring the fact the who FPS  gerne
and Mutliplayer was made possible by  what PC could do at the of  time
Doom and  the interent) 



So we  dismiss this logic  because it
make sense but does not allow us  re-affrim our notions of the evil EA 
and  catering to the dumb COD  crowd.  



sarcasm aside.





No we don't becasue that would not make any sense.







 

As a person who goes to a school with many men in fraternities, those "frat boys" are more interested in getting alkololz and ****ezz than playing CoD.

[Alamar2078]

chunkyman wrote...

 Greetings, fellow forumites!

I am a fan of western RPGs, but I know borderline nothing about the Mass Effect series. I've heard that it is an RPG, but the little info I've heard leads me to believe that it is more of an action game than an RPG.

One reason that I made this thread is because DA2 was sarcastically called Dragon Effect 2, and since I hate DA2 and don't consider it an RPG, I was wondering if Mass Effect 3 (and previous titles) has equal or lesser RPG mechanics in comparison to DA2.

Thanks in advance for the replies!

(Also, do I have to play previous Mass Effect games to understand the plot, or can I start with 3 and still understand everything?)

If it matters I love the ME series but didn't like DA2 at all.  If I had to pidgeon hole the games I'd say ME1 was an RPG with shooter elements.   ME2 seemed to be a shooter with a good story and RPG elements.  I imagine ME3 will be similar to ME2.

I guess what it boils down to is what you consider an RPG and what you don't.  If all an RPG is to you is "level ups" and "new loot" you'll be disappointed.   If an RPG is all about the story and making decisions and seeing how the decisions impact the world then ME1-3 might well be for you.

Seeing that you can get the other games fairly cheaply why not invest in some ME1.  If you like it try ME2 and go from there.