394 réponses à ce sujet

[log1x_dr4g0n]

Why can't people just agree there are different types of RPG's, and move on?

[DarthCaine]

No. It's an ACTION RPG

Modifié par DarthCaine, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:31 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

You were quoting a bunch of unrelated statements, which part was factually wrong?

RPGs are about counting numbers
Mass Effect is about shooting things

1. RPG's aren't about counting numbers. They're about role-playing. Everything from DnD to WoW to Diablo to Mass Effect is an RPG.

2. See above.

Uh, yeah, they basically all come down to numbers. Whether your decisions lead to increasing your existing abilities or gaining new ones it's a game of number crunching.
OP asked a question regarding game mechanisms, stated that he disliked DAII because it was too much action not enough number crunching and I feel like ME series and DAII have a similar action to number crunch ratio, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of people here on BSN know the feeling.

So yeah, not trolling.

[Sylvius the Mad]

log1x_dr4g0n wrote...

Why can't people just agree there are different types of RPG's, and move on?

I think people can agree to that.

But the genre has limits.  At some point, a game stops being a roleplaying game.  For many, ME is well beyond that line.

[Candidate 88766]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

LGTX wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

LGTX wrote...

Tell us your definition of RPG, and we'll try our best to deduce if ME fits it Otherwise, I can see a flamewar brewing. The topic is *pretty* controversial to say the least.

It's already started.

Yep. Who am I kidding:(

It's not an RPG, period. It's at best an action RPG. I love ME2, don't get me wrong. But RPG is simply the wrong label.

Does it feature role-playing elements? A sizeable universe filled with characters?

An expanded universe?

Emotional investments?

Decision making?

It sounds a lot like an RPG, albeit with cover and shooting mechanics.

And no, I'm not referring only to ME2. You can't categorize a franchise from 1 game that intentionally deviated from the formula.

I agree.

And frankly I'd argue that ME1 deviated from the formula as well. Both games feature staple RPG features, and while neither is an old-school or traditional RPG they are both at least partly RPGs.

Customisable character.
Heavy emphasis on NPC interaction.
Choice and consequence.
Branching dialogue.
Main missions and side missions.
Hub worlds.
Power skill trees.

While none of those are restricted purely to RPGs, RPGs are the only game types to typically feature all of these things, and both ME1 and ME2 have them.

[I-am-Biwinning]

K compared to something like skyrim, it's kind of like if you cut out everything but the college of winterhold, but you put a huge amount of work into all of the charcters in the college. Sure you could only play as a mage type character, but you'd have a great deal of controll over what happened in the college. Imagine if you could side with the thalmor, and use the eye of magnus to dominate the world. You could side with the college and attempt to use it for good. You could side with the psijic monks and help remove it from the world. Imagine if the characters in the college were developed to the point, that if you had to choose which one lived or died, it really would take you a few minutes to decide which one and why. Mass Effect is kind of like that. You may not be able to role play as a batarian pirate who flies around partying while the reapers destroy the universe, but you have a great degree of control within the limits of the game. It's sacraficing the number of avalaible roles, in order to more satisfying, although restrictive roles available.

[jcolt]

who the hell cares what its classified as as long as its fun to play and has a satisfying story i mean really does it matter

[Sylvius the Mad]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Customisable character.
Heavy emphasis on NPC interaction.
Choice and consequence.
Branching dialogue.

I deny that the ME games contain these features.  The player is given little or no control over his character's personality, and is prevented from making meaningful choices about action or expression by the obfuscatory dialogue mechanic.

People are disagreeing about what features make a game a roleplaying game, yes, but they're also disagreeing about what features ME actually contains.

[LGTX]

AlexXIV wrote...

LGTX wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

LGTX wrote...

Tell us your definition of RPG, and we'll try our best to deduce if ME fits it Otherwise, I can see a flamewar brewing. The topic is *pretty* controversial to say the least.

It's already started.

Yep. Who am I kidding:(

It's not an RPG, period. It's at best an action RPG. I love ME2, don't get me wrong. But RPG is simply the wrong label.

Did I argue anything? State an opinion? I just asked for the OP's definition. 

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I disagree.  ME is more of an Adventure game than it is an Roleplaying game.  There's almost no roleplaying component.  The player simply finds him way through a pre-written story with very little control over whi his character is or why he does what he does.

Mass Effect bears a stronger resemblance to King's Quest than it does to the Gold Box RPGs.

Using those criteria, is KotOR an RPG? The ME1 plot structure is fairly similar to KotOR, except that you don't make as big a difference compared to KotOR 1's radically different DS/LS endings. (Which Obsidian screwed up, but that's another topic).

I can see how the KotOR PC differs in possibly having a radically different motivation from other PCs -- he could be after that big evil thing for himself all the way from Dantooine, whereas all possible Shepards are trying to preserve the galaxy from the threat in ME.

Edit: Nevermind. I see that this is mostly about the dialogue system. I don't evaluate that system the same way you do -- for me the prewritten KotOR reponses are exactly as predeterminated as the prerecorded ME responses -- so naturally we evaluate the games differently.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:38 .

[Candidate 88766]

log1x_dr4g0n wrote...

Why can't people just agree there are different types of RPG's, and move on?

You'd think wouldn't you.

Frankly I just think of the ME games as good games. They may be not be RPGs in the traditional sense, but RPG is still the best way to describe their genre. Bioware just put the emphasis on story and and character ahead of the emphasis on genre, as they have always done, and frankly it think its paid off. The style of their games is relatively unique. If I want a pure open world sandbox RPG I'll go to Bethesda. If I want an engaging story with interesting characters I come to Bioware.

[Sylvius the Mad]

jcolt wrote...

who the hell cares what its classified as as long as its fun to play and has a satisfying story i mean really does it matter

Whether any given player finds the game fun is determined by the features within the game (relative to that player's preferences).

"As long as its fun to play" is a meaningless discriptor, as each of us finds different things fun.  For example, you just made the implicit assumption that having "a satisfying story" was a positive feature in any game for any player, and that's certainly not the case.  I, for one, consider the authored narrative within a roleplaying game to me an extraneous feature, and thus neither a positive or negative on its own.

[1136342t54_]

I really want to say this topic was a very clever way to troll. If so congrats OP you have suceeded lol. If not then you've come to a site where people start large arguments about how Miranda's outfit destroys the entirety of the lore in the game.

Mass Effect is a Action RPG that has many TPS elements combined with traditional Bioware story, choices and customizations. Its an RPG but if your looking for an RPG that is very very heavy with stats then your out of luck.

[AlexXIV]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

LGTX wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

LGTX wrote...

Tell us your definition of RPG, and we'll try our best to deduce if ME fits it Otherwise, I can see a flamewar brewing. The topic is *pretty* controversial to say the least.

It's already started.

Yep. Who am I kidding:(

It's not an RPG, period. It's at best an action RPG. I love ME2, don't get me wrong. But RPG is simply the wrong label.

Does it feature role-playing elements? A sizeable universe filled with characters?

An expanded universe?

Emotional investments?

Decision making?

It sounds a lot like an RPG, albeit with cover and shooting mechanics. There's nothing objectively non-RPG'ish about it. I'm not saying it's pure, uadulterated RP, but it fits the general bill of an RPG. Every other little thing about it is subjective.

And no, I'm not referring only to ME2. You can't categorize a franchise from 1 game that intentionally deviated from the formula.

Alot of games feature RPG elements. But they still ain't labelled RPG. They are simulations, action games, RTS. Choices =/= RPG. Story =/= RPG. Characters/NPCs =/= RPG. Dialogue =/= RPG.

They are all RPG features, but they don't make a game an RPG unless they become the main focus of the game. And I am not sure if for example in ME2 or DA2 for that matter not the combat is the main focus of the game, not the world itself. Old school RPGs used to simulate a real world in which the player used to be relatively free to move and also had to do certain things to 'live' in it. Eat, drink, fix gear, make money to afford it, etc. Basically the world came alive. In Bioware games lately you hardly even see NPCs move. They just stand there and wait until you approach them. Instead of having a cutscene if you enter a place and force you to make a decision how you deal with situation NOW. I mean when in life do you get to choose when you deal with which problem, usually you run into a situation and you can't for example just ask everyone to wait for you until you finished another 'quest'. My main problem why I don't call Bioware games RPG is that they simply don't feel alive. No matter how many graphical gimmics they use, it is a static world.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:40 .

[log1x_dr4g0n]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

log1x_dr4g0n wrote...

Why can't people just agree there are different types of RPG's, and move on?

You'd think wouldn't you.

Frankly I just think of the ME games as good games. They may be not be RPGs in the traditional sense, but RPG is still the best way to describe their genre. Bioware just put the emphasis on story and and character ahead of the emphasis on genre, as they have always done, and frankly it think its paid off. The style of their games is relatively unique. If I want a pure open world sandbox RPG I'll go to Bethesda. If I want an engaging story with interesting characters I come to Bioware.

Same here.

[Candidate 88766]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Customisable character.
Heavy emphasis on NPC interaction.
Choice and consequence.
Branching dialogue.

I deny that the ME games contain these features.  The player is given little or no control over his character's personality, and is prevented from making meaningful choices about action or expression by the obfuscatory dialogue mechanic.

People are disagreeing about what features make a game a roleplaying game, yes, but they're also disagreeing about what features ME actually contains.

You can choose you character's morality to some extent, but I'll give you that one - Shepard is relatively defined for the sake of the story.

No idea how you can deny there was a heavy emphasis on NPC interaction. You spend like half the game in ME1 and ME2 talking to characters.

You make lots of choices in both ME games and while I admit we are yet to see masisve consequcnes, our actions can still lead to characters dying for example, which is a pretty significant consequence.

Maybe the dialogue doesn't necessarily have branches - probably the wrong word - but you get choice over the dialogue, and very few games apart form RPGs ever have that.

So I can sort of agree with two out of four there.

[AlexXIV]

LGTX wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

LGTX wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

LGTX wrote...

Tell us your definition of RPG, and we'll try our best to deduce if ME fits it Otherwise, I can see a flamewar brewing. The topic is *pretty* controversial to say the least.

It's already started.

Yep. Who am I kidding:(

It's not an RPG, period. It's at best an action RPG. I love ME2, don't get me wrong. But RPG is simply the wrong label.

Did I argue anything? State an opinion? I just asked for the OP's definition. 

Well ok, just if everyone can have their own opinon, what is the point of having a genre. Then the genre should be 'others' because it does not fit in any of the established genre.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I disagree.  ME is more of an Adventure game than it is an Roleplaying game.  There's almost no roleplaying component.  The player simply finds him way through a pre-written story with very little control over whi his character is or why he does what he does.

Mass Effect bears a stronger resemblance to King's Quest than it does to the Gold Box RPGs.

Using those criteria, is KotOR an RPG?

I think so, yes.  The player has tremendous freedom to decide what his character's motivations are and why he does what he does.

Perhaps not with ME2, which has bigger problems, but I think ME could be quite a good roleplaying game simply by swapping out the dialogue system for KotOR's.  ME with a silent protagonist and full-text dialogue options would be a perfectly cromulent roleplaying game.

[AgitatedLemon]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

You were quoting a bunch of unrelated statements, which part was factually wrong?

RPGs are about counting numbers
Mass Effect is about shooting things

1. RPG's aren't about counting numbers. They're about role-playing. Everything from DnD to WoW to Diablo to Mass Effect is an RPG.

2. See above.

Uh, yeah, they basically all come down to numbers. Whether your decisions lead to increasing your existing abilities or gaining new ones it's a game of number crunching.
OP asked a question regarding game mechanisms, stated that he disliked DAII because it was too much action not enough number crunching and I feel like ME series and DAII have a similar action to number crunch ratio, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of people here on BSN know the feeling.

So yeah, not trolling.

No. Stat-based RPG's (See DnD, WoW, Diablo, ME1 to a degree) are based around number crunching and min/maxing.

ME2 is an RPG, just not stat based.

[AlanC9]

Thinking more about this, I guess my best advice for the OP would be to think of ME1 as KotOR with the DA2 dialogue wheel and no DS ending. If that sounds bad you wouldn't like ME1, or any of the rest of the series.

ME2 has a different plot structure (BG2 style) and more twitch-based combat. ME3 will retain that combat.

Note that there is a demo for ME2 -- however, the demo, naturally, is spoilerrific for ME1.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:42 .

[Abraham_uk]

chunkyman wrote...

 Greetings, fellow forumites!

I am a fan of western RPGs, but I know borderline nothing about the Mass Effect series. I've heard that it is an RPG, but the little info I've heard leads me to believe that it is more of an action game than an RPG.

One reason that I made this thread is because DA2 was sarcastically called Dragon Effect 2, and since I hate DA2 and don't consider it an RPG, I was wondering if Mass Effect 3 (and previous titles) has equal or lesser RPG mechanics in comparison to DA2.

Thanks in advance for the replies!

(Also, do I have to play previous Mass Effect games to understand the plot, or can I start with 3 and still understand everything?)

Mass Effect series is a shoot-em-up RPG with powers. Yes awesome powers.

Story driven, character driven and plenty of interactions with crew members. Plenty of lore, codexes and some exploration. Hub worlds where you can purchasses items and upgrades.

There are some complaints that Mass Effect 2 was more of a third person shooter than an RPG (please refrain from trolling). It still plays very much like a combination of both. Some of the looting and number crunching aspects have been dropped but Mass Effect 3 will be reintroducing them with new additions.

You also get to make decisions and create your own character (something that separates Western RPG's from Japanese RPG's). Don't worry. Bioware's signature story telling skills still exist here.


Mass Effect is not really about being an RPG or being a shooter. This is just the categories that publisher Electronic Arts and video games place them. Casy Hudson just wanted to create an immersive world with plenty of decisions and enjoyable combat. I feel that he's suceeded.

[AgitatedLemon]

Old school RPGs used to simulate a real world in which the player used to be relatively free to move and also had to do certain things to 'live' in it. Eat, drink, fix gear, make money to afford it, etc. Basically the world came alive. In Bioware games lately you hardly even see NPCs move. They just stand there and wait until you approach them.

So you're saying that you want the Sims: SciFi edition?

Old School RPG's were RPG's with Sim elements.

ME is an RPG with shooter elements.

You can continue to complain about it, or you could just live with it.

[tetrisblock4x1]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I disagree.  ME is more of an Adventure game than it is an Roleplaying game.  There's almost no roleplaying component.  The player simply finds him way through a pre-written story with very little control over whi his character is or why he does what he does.

Mass Effect bears a stronger resemblance to King's Quest than it does to the Gold Box RPGs.

Using those criteria, is KotOR an RPG? The ME1 plot structure is fairly similar to KotOR, except that you don't make as big a difference compared to KotOR 1's radically different DS/LS endings. (Which Obsidian screwed up, but that's another topic).

I can see how the KotOR PC differs in possibly having a radically different motivation from other PCs -- he could be after that big evil thing for himself all the way from Dantooine, whereas all possible Shepards are trying to preserve the galaxy from the threat in ME.

Edit: Nevermind. I see that this is mostly about the dialogue system. I don't evaluate that system the same way you do -- for me the prewritten KotOR reponses are exactly as predeterminated as the prerecorded ME responses -- so naturally we evaluate the games differently.

Obsidian turned Revan into a strategic mastermind who prepared the galaxy for the incoming Sith invasion by encouraging the galaxy to increase military production. The invasion the whole galasxy didn't even know was coming. Obsidians version of Revan played the whole galaxy like a conductor plays a symphony. Biowares version was the jedi councils ****.

Malak? He was a dumb **** who wanted to ruin everything for teh lulz just like most of Biowares arch villains.

Obsidian did it better.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

No idea how you can deny there was a heavy emphasis on NPC interaction. You spend like half the game in ME1 and ME2 talking to characters.

Shepard does spend a lot of time talking to people, yes, but the player has effectively no control over Shepard during dialogue.  The player does not get to choose what Shepard says or how he says it.  Compare that with DAO or KotOR, where the player gets to choose both of those things.

You make lots of choices in both ME games and while I admit we are yet to see masisve consequcnes, our actions can still lead to characters dying for example, which is a pretty significant consequence.

There are perhaps a dozen such choices to be made in wither ME game.  In a game where the player has greater control over dialogue, however, there are hundreds if not thousands of such choices.

Maybe the dialogue doesn't necessarily have branches - probably the wrong word - but you get choice over the dialogue, and very few games apart form RPGs ever have that.

Choosing to open door #3 is not equivalent to choosing the prize (or lack thereof) that resides behind door #3.  ME's obfuscatory dialogue system removes player choice from conversations.  Regardless of whether ME features branching dialogue, the player can do nothing more than guess his way through it.