394 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I disagree.  ME is more of an Adventure game than it is an Roleplaying game.  There's almost no roleplaying component.  The player simply finds him way through a pre-written story with very little control over whi his character is or why he does what he does.

Mass Effect bears a stronger resemblance to King's Quest than it does to the Gold Box RPGs.

Using those criteria, is KotOR an RPG?

I think so, yes.  The player has tremendous freedom to decide what his character's motivations are and why he does what he does.

Perhaps not with ME2, which has bigger problems, but I think ME could be quite a good roleplaying game simply by swapping out the dialogue system for KotOR's.  ME with a silent protagonist and full-text dialogue options would be a perfectly cromulent roleplaying game.

See edit above. Yeah, I figured out where you were going after I posted.

So I guess our advice for the OP is similar. If the DA2 dialogue system doesn't work for him, then ME's won't work either.

[AlexXIV]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I disagree.  ME is more of an Adventure game than it is an Roleplaying game.  There's almost no roleplaying component.  The player simply finds him way through a pre-written story with very little control over whi his character is or why he does what he does.

Mass Effect bears a stronger resemblance to King's Quest than it does to the Gold Box RPGs.

Using those criteria, is KotOR an RPG?

I think so, yes.  The player has tremendous freedom to decide what his character's motivations are and why he does what he does.

Perhaps not with ME2, which has bigger problems, but I think ME could be quite a good roleplaying game simply by swapping out the dialogue system for KotOR's.  ME with a silent protagonist and full-text dialogue options would be a perfectly cromulent roleplaying game.

Honestly, no. KotOR was the first RPG I played that really felt empty. It even mostly consisted of endless lifeless corridors. Bioware is doing good on interaction, especially with companions etc. Their problem is to let the world itself feel alive. I mean they could just let you run through an endless tunnel. I honestly don't know why KotOR was even praised so much and got an award. Probably because it was a Star Wars game and it was 'good', fun to play, etc.

[tetrisblock4x1]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

You were quoting a bunch of unrelated statements, which part was factually wrong?

RPGs are about counting numbers
Mass Effect is about shooting things

1. RPG's aren't about counting numbers. They're about role-playing. Everything from DnD to WoW to Diablo to Mass Effect is an RPG.

2. See above.

Uh, yeah, they basically all come down to numbers. Whether your decisions lead to increasing your existing abilities or gaining new ones it's a game of number crunching.
OP asked a question regarding game mechanisms, stated that he disliked DAII because it was too much action not enough number crunching and I feel like ME series and DAII have a similar action to number crunch ratio, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of people here on BSN know the feeling.

So yeah, not trolling.

No. Stat-based RPG's (See DnD, WoW, Diablo, ME1 to a degree) are based around number crunching and min/maxing.

ME2 is an RPG, just not stat based.

Okay. The OP apparantly doesn't agree, and it is where my response was directed. I'm not about to go on some fools quest of trying to change peoples minds by brow beating them with my definition of an RPG. That never works.

[AlexXIV]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Old school RPGs used to simulate a real world in which the player used to be relatively free to move and also had to do certain things to 'live' in it. Eat, drink, fix gear, make money to afford it, etc. Basically the world came alive. In Bioware games lately you hardly even see NPCs move. They just stand there and wait until you approach them.

So you're saying that you want the Sims: SciFi edition?

Old School RPG's were RPG's with Sim elements.

ME is an RPG with shooter elements.

You can continue to complain about it, or you could just live with it.

I said I love ME2 for what it is. I just think that action rpg is a better label than rpg. Because rpg could mean anything from ME2 to Drakensang.

[AgitatedLemon]

The player does not get to choose what Shepard says or how he says it.

Did you actually say this?

I don't know how to reply, apart from saying that you're dumb.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:48 .

[AgitatedLemon]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

You were quoting a bunch of unrelated statements, which part was factually wrong?

RPGs are about counting numbers
Mass Effect is about shooting things

1. RPG's aren't about counting numbers. They're about role-playing. Everything from DnD to WoW to Diablo to Mass Effect is an RPG.

2. See above.

Uh, yeah, they basically all come down to numbers. Whether your decisions lead to increasing your existing abilities or gaining new ones it's a game of number crunching.
OP asked a question regarding game mechanisms, stated that he disliked DAII because it was too much action not enough number crunching and I feel like ME series and DAII have a similar action to number crunch ratio, and I'm pretty sure that a lot of people here on BSN know the feeling.

So yeah, not trolling.

No. Stat-based RPG's (See DnD, WoW, Diablo, ME1 to a degree) are based around number crunching and min/maxing.

ME2 is an RPG, just not stat based.

Okay. The OP apparantly doesn't agree, and it is where my response was directed. I'm not about to go on some fools quest of trying to change peoples minds by brow beating them with my definition of an RPG. That never works.

That's better. And I noticed you stopped slinging personal insults to everyone in the thread too. Kudos.

[AlanC9]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Obsidian turned Revan into a strategic mastermind who prepared the galaxy for the incoming Sith invasion by encouraging the galaxy to increase military production. The invasion the whole galasxy didn't even know was coming. Obsidians version of Revan played the whole galaxy like a conductor plays a symphony. Biowares version was the jedi councils ****.

Malak? He was a dumb **** who wanted to ruin everything for teh lulz just like most of Biowares arch villains.

Obsidian did it better.

Which is just great for Revan the NPC. Revan the PC ends up accomplishing nothing whatsoever.

[AgitatedLemon]

AlexXIV wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Old school RPGs used to simulate a real world in which the player used to be relatively free to move and also had to do certain things to 'live' in it. Eat, drink, fix gear, make money to afford it, etc. Basically the world came alive. In Bioware games lately you hardly even see NPCs move. They just stand there and wait until you approach them.

So you're saying that you want the Sims: SciFi edition?

Old School RPG's were RPG's with Sim elements.

ME is an RPG with shooter elements.

You can continue to complain about it, or you could just live with it.

I said I love ME2 for what it is. I just think that action rpg is a better label than rpg. Because rpg could mean anything from ME2 to Drakensang.

Action RPG is STILL an RPG.

I said it earlier, everything from DnD to Diablo to WoW to DotA to ME is an RPG, by some means. Are they the same style or RPG, hell no, but they're all RPG's.

[nitefyre410]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

The player does not get to choose what Shepard says or how he says it.

Did you actually say this?

I don't know how to reply, apart from insults.

Don't its a trap trust me and whats  worst is  that he is as serious a heart attack.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:50 .

[AlanC9]

AlexXIV wrote...
Honestly, no. KotOR was the first RPG I played that really felt empty. It even mostly consisted of endless lifeless corridors. Bioware is doing good on interaction, especially with companions etc. Their problem is to let the world itself feel alive. I mean they could just let you run through an endless tunnel. I honestly don't know why KotOR was even praised so much and got an award. Probably because it was a Star Wars game and it was 'good', fun to play, etc.

Since the OP specifically mentions KotOR, we should probably just assume it to be what he's looking for in an RPG for purposes of this thread -- unless he qualifies the statement.

As for "action  RPG," I think that certainly applies to ME2 since it has twitch elements in the gameplay. I'm not so sure about putting ME1 in that category.

Modifié par AlanC9, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:51 .

[Candidate 88766]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

No idea how you can deny there was a heavy emphasis on NPC interaction. You spend like half the game in ME1 and ME2 talking to characters.

Shepard does spend a lot of time talking to people, yes, but the player has effectively no control over Shepard during dialogue.  The player does not get to choose what Shepard says or how he says it.  Compare that with DAO or KotOR, where the player gets to choose both of those things.

 
Um, yeah, you do.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:55 .

[nitefyre410]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Old school RPGs used to simulate a real world in which the player used to be relatively free to move and also had to do certain things to 'live' in it. Eat, drink, fix gear, make money to afford it, etc. Basically the world came alive. In Bioware games lately you hardly even see NPCs move. They just stand there and wait until you approach them.

So you're saying that you want the Sims: SciFi edition?

Old School RPG's were RPG's with Sim elements.

ME is an RPG with shooter elements.

You can continue to complain about it, or you could just live with it.

I said I love ME2 for what it is. I just think that action rpg is a better label than rpg. Because rpg could mean anything from ME2 to Drakensang.

Action RPG is STILL an RPG.

I said it earlier, everything from DnD to Diablo to WoW to DotA to ME is an RPG, by some means. Are they the same style or RPG, hell no, but they're all RPG's.

^ this


Like BBQ  chicken is still chicken... the BBQ is the style it which its cooked.

much the Action is reference the battle system and gameplay.

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Obsidian turned Revan into a strategic mastermind who prepared the galaxy for the incoming Sith invasion by encouraging the galaxy to increase military production. The invasion the whole galasxy didn't even know was coming. Obsidians version of Revan played the whole galaxy like a conductor plays a symphony. Biowares version was the jedi councils ****.

Malak? He was a dumb **** who wanted to ruin everything for teh lulz just like most of Biowares arch villains.

Obsidian did it better.

Which is just great for Revan the NPC. Revan the PC ends up accomplishing nothing whatsoever.

I'm gonna go ahead and list myself under the category of gamers who loved both installments.

[AlexXIV]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Old school RPGs used to simulate a real world in which the player used to be relatively free to move and also had to do certain things to 'live' in it. Eat, drink, fix gear, make money to afford it, etc. Basically the world came alive. In Bioware games lately you hardly even see NPCs move. They just stand there and wait until you approach them.

So you're saying that you want the Sims: SciFi edition?

Old School RPG's were RPG's with Sim elements.

ME is an RPG with shooter elements.

You can continue to complain about it, or you could just live with it.

I said I love ME2 for what it is. I just think that action rpg is a better label than rpg. Because rpg could mean anything from ME2 to Drakensang.

Action RPG is STILL an RPG.

I said it earlier, everything from DnD to Diablo to WoW to DotA to ME is an RPG, by some means. Are they the same style or RPG, hell no, but they're all RPG's.

If you want to use such a broad label it doesn't mean much. Because people can't imagine what it means if someone says it's an RPG. If they said action RPG or turn based RPG, or RPG-Sim (as in opposite to for example flight sim) or tactical RPG or economy RPG. See what I did? You can role play in almost any genre if you have enough RPG elements in it. You probably don't know it or have heard of it but there used to be games who merged RPG and tactic. A bit like mount and blade or Spellforce. Just older, and ... better.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

*Krogan Rage*
U idiots GTHO.

[AgitatedLemon]

AlexXIV wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Old school RPGs used to simulate a real world in which the player used to be relatively free to move and also had to do certain things to 'live' in it. Eat, drink, fix gear, make money to afford it, etc. Basically the world came alive. In Bioware games lately you hardly even see NPCs move. They just stand there and wait until you approach them.

So you're saying that you want the Sims: SciFi edition?

Old School RPG's were RPG's with Sim elements.

ME is an RPG with shooter elements.

You can continue to complain about it, or you could just live with it.

I said I love ME2 for what it is. I just think that action rpg is a better label than rpg. Because rpg could mean anything from ME2 to Drakensang.

Action RPG is STILL an RPG.

I said it earlier, everything from DnD to Diablo to WoW to DotA to ME is an RPG, by some means. Are they the same style or RPG, hell no, but they're all RPG's.

If you want to use such a broad label it doesn't mean much. Because people can't imagine what it means if someone says it's an RPG. If they said action RPG or turn based RPG, or RPG-Sim (as in opposite to for example flight sim) or tactical RPG or economy RPG. See what I did? You can role play in almost any genre if you have enough RPG elements in it. You probably don't know it or have heard of it but there used to be games who merged RPG and tactic. A bit like mount and blade or Spellforce. Just older, and ... better.

I listed DotA as one of 'em, so I must... 

But in all seriousness, "RPG" by itself is a sufficient tag, much like how "Action" is used to cover everything from FPS, TPS, Action-RPG, Survival Horror, and even some Adventure games. Or how Platformer is used on everything from Mario to Metroid to Banjo-Kazooie, despite the gameplay in all 3 of these titles being nothing similar.

It's possible for games to have multiple genres if they damn well want to, just look at DotA. If anything, it's an RPG/RTS hybrid. Same with Warcraft 3 (In multiplayer)

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 03 janvier 2012 - 07:01 .

[Abraham_uk]

nitefyre410 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Old school RPGs used to simulate a real world in which the player used to be relatively free to move and also had to do certain things to 'live' in it. Eat, drink, fix gear, make money to afford it, etc. Basically the world came alive. In Bioware games lately you hardly even see NPCs move. They just stand there and wait until you approach them.

So you're saying that you want the Sims: SciFi edition?

Old School RPG's were RPG's with Sim elements.

ME is an RPG with shooter elements.

You can continue to complain about it, or you could just live with it.

I said I love ME2 for what it is. I just think that action rpg is a better label than rpg. Because rpg could mean anything from ME2 to Drakensang.

Action RPG is STILL an RPG.

I said it earlier, everything from DnD to Diablo to WoW to DotA to ME is an RPG, by some means. Are they the same style or RPG, hell no, but they're all RPG's.

^ this


Like BBQ  chicken is still chicken... the BBQ is the style it which its cooked.

much the Action is reference the battle system and gameplay.

There is no debate that Chicken is Chicken, regardless of what style it has been cooked.

The same argument doesn't apply to role playing games. First of all, there is a lack of consensus of what constitutes an RPG.

Now my definition of an RPG is so loose that I even include games such as Grand Theft Auto, Infameous and Final Fantasy XIII into my definition. So Mass Effect in my eyes easily passes as Role Playing Game.

However, someone may argue that the only true Role Playing Game is the old pen and paper dungeons and dragons.

Who am I to argue, when no one can agree on a definition? I've seen loads of threads like this. The only conclusion I can think of is as follows:

Why are we debating over the definition of a term?
Seriously why? Why does it matter if Mass Effect isn't an RPG?

Elements such as story, gameplay, combat, characters, lore, visuals etc are far more important than whether or not a game fits a genre.

[Candidate 88766]

AlexXIV wrote...

If you want to use such a broad label it doesn't mean much. Because people can't imagine what it means if someone says it's an RPG. If they said action RPG or turn based RPG, or RPG-Sim (as in opposite to for example flight sim) or tactical RPG or economy RPG. See what I did? You can role play in almost any genre if you have enough RPG elements in it. You probably don't know it or have heard of it but there used to be games who merged RPG and tactic. A bit like mount and blade or Spellforce. Just older, and ... better.

Thats right though - there are lots of sub-genres within the RPG genre. Both Human Revolution and Skyrim are undeniably RPGs, and yet they couldn't really be more different in their execution.

[AgitatedLemon]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

If you want to use such a broad label it doesn't mean much. Because people can't imagine what it means if someone says it's an RPG. If they said action RPG or turn based RPG, or RPG-Sim (as in opposite to for example flight sim) or tactical RPG or economy RPG. See what I did? You can role play in almost any genre if you have enough RPG elements in it. You probably don't know it or have heard of it but there used to be games who merged RPG and tactic. A bit like mount and blade or Spellforce. Just older, and ... better.

Thats right though - there are lots of sub-genres within the RPG genre. Both Human Revolution and Skyrim are undeniably RPGs, and yet they couldn't really be more different in their execution.

Regardless, they are both still RPG's. The people saying that they aren't are simply stuck using the older definition, which applied to the RPG's of the 90's-early 00's, and PnP RPG's.

I hate sounding like a dick, but it's true.

An RPG is an RPG is an RPG is an RPG, whether it's PnP, Stat-based, ME1 styled, or anything.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 03 janvier 2012 - 07:02 .

[Candidate 88766]

Abraham_uk wrote...

Why are we debating over the definition of a term?
Seriously why? Why does it matter if Mass Effect isn't an RPG?

Elements such as story, gameplay, combat, characters, lore, visuals etc are far more important than whether or not a game fits a genre.

I've been saying this every time this sort of thread turns up.

The vast majority of us play the ME games for the characters and the story. No one ever says they love ME because of its inventory.

[AlanC9]

Il Divo wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Obsidian turned Revan into a strategic mastermind who prepared the galaxy for the incoming Sith invasion by encouraging the galaxy to increase military production. The invasion the whole galasxy didn't even know was coming. Obsidians version of Revan played the whole galaxy like a conductor plays a symphony. Biowares version was the jedi councils ****.

Malak? He was a dumb **** who wanted to ruin everything for teh lulz just like most of Biowares arch villains.

Obsidian did it better.

Which is just great for Revan the NPC. Revan the PC ends up accomplishing nothing whatsoever.

I'm gonna go ahead and list myself under the category of gamers who loved both installments.

Hell, you can put me in that category too. I just really hated the start of KotOR2 once I realized what Obsidian had done. I liked KotOR 2 just fine overall -- probably because I don't like SW metaphysics any more than Chris Avellone does.

Paradoxically, I've been kind of hoping that ME2 is going to turn out to be one big Xanatos Gambit. It's OK when a villain does it to you

[Candidate 88766]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

If you want to use such a broad label it doesn't mean much. Because people can't imagine what it means if someone says it's an RPG. If they said action RPG or turn based RPG, or RPG-Sim (as in opposite to for example flight sim) or tactical RPG or economy RPG. See what I did? You can role play in almost any genre if you have enough RPG elements in it. You probably don't know it or have heard of it but there used to be games who merged RPG and tactic. A bit like mount and blade or Spellforce. Just older, and ... better.

Thats right though - there are lots of sub-genres within the RPG genre. Both Human Revolution and Skyrim are undeniably RPGs, and yet they couldn't really be more different in their execution.

Regardless, they are both still RPG's. The people saying that they aren't are simply stuck using the older definition, which applied to the RPG's of the 90's-early 00's, and PnP RPG's.

I hate sounding like a dick, but it's true.

An RPG is an RPG is an RPG is an RPG.

I'm agreeing with you. There are so many types of game that fit under the RPG umbrella that denying that ME1 and ME2 come under its definition at least partially is a bit silly.

Modifié par Candidate 88766, 03 janvier 2012 - 07:05 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Obsidian did it better.

Only if you think it's the developer's job to define the PC for you.

Certainly if you're looking for the game to tell you an interesting story, KotOR2 did a better job.  But that's not the core feature I want from a roleplaying game.

[AlexXIV]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

If you want to use such a broad label it doesn't mean much. Because people can't imagine what it means if someone says it's an RPG. If they said action RPG or turn based RPG, or RPG-Sim (as in opposite to for example flight sim) or tactical RPG or economy RPG. See what I did? You can role play in almost any genre if you have enough RPG elements in it. You probably don't know it or have heard of it but there used to be games who merged RPG and tactic. A bit like mount and blade or Spellforce. Just older, and ... better.

Thats right though - there are lots of sub-genres within the RPG genre. Both Human Revolution and Skyrim are undeniably RPGs, and yet they couldn't really be more different in their execution.

Regardless, they are both still RPG's. The people saying that they aren't are simply stuck using the older definition, which applied to the RPG's of the 90's-early 00's, and PnP RPG's.

I hate sounding like a dick, but it's true.

An RPG is an RPG is an RPG is an RPG.

Tbh Bethesda games are full RPGs to me even if people claim that Fallout is a shooter. But frankly I can get through the game without firing one gun. By being sneaky, picklocking, hacking, etc. These alternative options to get through the game are not in Bioware games. Which means they force you into combat. Which means they are heavy in the action as only way to get through. Which makes them action games with alot of RPG elements.