40 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

Yeah I know Bhelen killed his uncle, but Renvil's story has a few holes with nothing to back it up. You're really just taking his word on it.

1. Bhelen would have no reason to hunt Renvil once he's on the surface. Despite his changes to Orzammar the majority of dwarves believe that once they depart for the surface they aren't true dwarves anymore. So any rights to challenge Bhelen are moot.

2. Bhelen employed the Hero of Ferelden to destroy the Carta operations in Dust Town, so why would the Surface side be willing to work with him rather than give him retribution for Jarvia's death?

3. Why would Kal-Sharok be willing to harbor one of the traditonalist lords from Orzammar who happened to go to the surface? The citizens of Kal-Sharok harbor a grudge against Orzammar for abandoning them and refused to swear fealty to them when Orzammar rediscovered them. Not to mention if they have the same culture, a surface dwarf would be a casteless disgrace the same as Orzammar.

My guess, Renvil probably was either exiled or escaped to avoid death, but angered the Carta in his own way.

[Forst1999]

1. Bhelen also had no good reason to kill Harrowmont. He already stood down from his claims. Bhelen just can be very vindicative.
2. I think the Carta is pretty pragmatic. We don't know enough about their internal relationships to assume they would want to avenge Jarvia's death over doing buisiness.
3. Maybe Renvil hasn't thought that one through, but Kal-Sharok probably wouldn't deliver him right back to Bhelen either.
No reason to distrust him so far.

[thats1evildude]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

1. Bhelen would have no reason to hunt Renvil once he's on the surface. Despite his changes to Orzammar the majority of dwarves believe that once they depart for the surface they aren't true dwarves anymore. So any rights to challenge Bhelen are moot.

As Forst said, Bhelen is extremely vindictive. I have little difficulty believing that he had all of Harrowmont's relatives murdered for opposing him.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

2. Bhelen employed the Hero of Ferelden to destroy the Carta operations in Dust Town, so why would the Surface side be willing to work with him rather than give him retribution for Jarvia's death?

The reward for Renvil's death is probably substantial. I think they were just acting as opportunists in that conflict.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

3. Why would Kal-Sharok be willing to harbor one of the traditonalist lords from Orzammar who happened to go to the surface? The citizens of Kal-Sharok harbor a grudge against Orzammar for abandoning them and refused to swear fealty to them when Orzammar rediscovered them. Not to mention if they have the same culture, a surface dwarf would be a casteless disgrace the same as Orzammar.

You sort of answered your own question. They bear no love for the king of Orzammar; thus, they'd be willing to take in a fugitive fleeing from Bhelen.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 03 janvier 2012 - 09:49 .

[TEWR]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


1. Bhelen would have no reason to hunt Renvil once he's on the surface. Despite his changes to Orzammar the majority of dwarves believe that once they depart for the surface they aren't true dwarves anymore. So any rights to challenge Bhelen are moot.

As was said by the previous two posters, Bhelen's a ******.

I wonder if we can get a chain going of "As the previous ___ posters said above"?

2. Bhelen employed the Hero of Ferelden to destroy the Carta operations in Dust Town, so why would the Surface side be willing to work with him rather than give him retribution for Jarvia's death?

The Carta up on the surface might not be the same Carta that operates from Orzammar. I believe this Carta is associated with the Merchant's Guild of Kirkwall.

Or Bhelen did put some money out on Renvil's life when he could've better spent that money on helping Orzammar.

Bhelen's a really crappy ruler if you think about it. Better than Harrowmont certainly, but he lets his fury cloud his thinking.

3. Why would Kal-Sharok be willing to harbor one of the traditonalist lords from Orzammar who happened to go to the surface? The citizens of Kal-Sharok harbor a grudge against Orzammar for abandoning them and refused to swear fealty to them when Orzammar rediscovered them. Not to mention if they have the same culture, a surface dwarf would be a casteless disgrace the same as Orzammar.

Well, we don't really know Renvil's stance on the Dwarves. He may be a traditionalist like his family or he may be a reformist, but that doesn't necessarily mean he supported the one with similar views. He could've thought that neither candidate was worthy of the throne. While Harrowmont may have understood -- and drawn up a compromise  -- Bhelen would probably have still viewed Renvil as a threat because.... well.... he's a dick.

What I'm more interested in knowing is how the hell he's going to get into Kal-Sharok considering they have no access to the surface, per a DG post.

I mean, unless the Dwarves there pushed back the line far enough to open up a passage to the surface, Renvil and his two guards are gonna have to fight through Darkspawn lines to get there.

And hell, if they make it through that they'll probably be considered heroes by Kal-Sharok.

[Wulfram]

Firstly, I'll note pedantically that the Warden might have destroyed the Carta on Harrowmont's behalf then switched sides.

Also, the Carta is a criminal organisation.  It's members are after survival and money, not avenging slights to it's honour.  They're more likely to recognise that Jarvia overplayed her hand by extending her operations from Dusttown into Orzammar proper, and want to come to a working arrangement with Bhelen.

edit: Harbouring a rival states exiles is often a favourite way of exercising a grudge.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 janvier 2012 - 12:01 .

[Arthur Cousland]

As the previous posters have said...

What Bhelen did, by killing off the entire Harrowmont clan, isn't anything that wasn't typically done in medieval times. It wouldn't be unusual for the family to die along with a particular enemy of the king, as then someone like Bhelen no longer would have to worry about any of the other Harrowmonts trying to avenge their fallen relative.

[SkittlesKat96]

Also there is the idea/thought that maybe there were still people in Orzammar that supported the Harrowmont family and believed that it was Bhelen's fault for them being driven out of Orzammar, and/or Bhelen really is just crazy about getting rid of all the Harrowmont's as revenge/punishment or etc.

Renvil could have possibly raised an army to take back Orzammar (well actually I don't know where he'd get troops from and whether he would actually do that or not or whether Orzammar would like that or not, but its still a possibility.)

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 04 janvier 2012 - 04:14 .

[Wulfram]

Arthur Cousland wrote...

As the previous posters have said...

What Bhelen did, by killing off the entire Harrowmont clan, isn't anything that wasn't typically done in medieval times. It wouldn't be unusual for the family to die along with a particular enemy of the king, as then someone like Bhelen no longer would have to worry about any of the other Harrowmonts trying to avenge their fallen relative.

Depends which medieval times you're talking about.  In the 11th to 15th century western europe which we generally tend to be thinking of, it would be distinctly unusual.  

Executing Lord Harrowmont himself would be considered pretty shocking, particularly since he made a prompt submission.  Though once he's dead, then killing all his family starts to make more sense.

[andraip]

1. Bhelen also killled Harrowmont without reason. Besides, if you play as a Dwarf (and you know, you will become and exiled surfacer) you can become PARAGON, so yes, exiled dwarves aren't dwarves at all...

2. I guess the succesor of Jarvia was rather happy that he is in command and not Jarvia... besides bussiness is bussiness.

3. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Kal'Sharok hates Orzammar, Renvil hates the King of Orammar. Renvil could be usefull for Kal'Sharok, they could plan an coup d'etat against Bhelen or whatever.

4. A human living in the slums of Kirkwall propably is SOOO interrested in Dwarven politics and doesn't care about GOLD.
Someone in Hawkes position wouldn't care why the Carta wants to kill Renvil, but the gold he's offering to get rid of them would come in handy. Renvil would know that so he has no reason to lie.

[WhiteKnyght]

thats1evildude wrote...

You sort of answered your own question. They bear no love for the king of Orzammar; thus, they'd be willing to take in a fugitive fleeing from Bhelen.

Except that it was Endrin who refused to aid them because they wouldn't swear fealty. The same traditionalist elitist belief the Harrowmont clan supported. Bhelen was a reformer, so it stands to reason that Kal-Sharok would like him more and have mistrust of someone who supported the people who said 'Bow down to us or you're on your own.'

Also if Bhelen were going to have the whole family culled, why not just announce it at the same time he ordered Pyral's execution? As king of Orzammar it's not like anybody had the power to question or stop him, at least publicly. And let's not forget that Bhelen will accept help from the same brother he screwed over and has every reason to be weary of. But he restores the dwarf noble's name, caste, and everything, even makes him a paragon, which arguably gives him more power than he himself possesses. So with Pyral dead, he would probably be willing to spare the Harrowmont family if they swore fealty.

Bhelen's ending does mention there were several assassination attempts on him. Perhaps the Harrowmonts tried to have him assassinated.

Also you guys don't seem to grasp how criminal organizations operate. When you kill a hundred or so of their men and throw a big wrench in their operations, it kinda destroys any trust they might have in you. Not to mention criminal organizations are very petty and will kill you for retribution for the smallest offense, lest they look weak to their rivals. They also likely wouldn't work for Bhelen anyway as he's an authority figure. The lawless don't go well with the one who makes the laws.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 05 janvier 2012 - 02:49 .

[caradoc2000]

Bhelen is a pile of manure, and those tend to attract blowflies like the Carta.

[WhiteKnyght]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Bhelen is a pile of manure, and those tend to attract blowflies like the Carta.

Bhelen is an excellent example of how cutthroat Dwarven politics really are. He's just more transparent about it. If we could see the rapsheets for each member of the noble caste we'd probably find they've all tried to deceive, assassinate, and frame each other at some point.

Plus if Bhelen was willing to employ the Carta, why not just hire Jarvia to kill Pyral? Pyral Harrowmont dies = Bhelen runs unopposed for king and can intimidate all the Deshyrs into voting for him.

My point is that people are taking a lot on faith. Renvil isn't his uncle, we have no proof of anything beyond his claims, yet we believe him just because it's something we think Bhelen is capable of doing. It's like in Asunder when it looked like the Lord Seeker framed Rhys for Pharamond's murder. But it turned out it was Adrian, someone who wasn't expected to.

[caradoc2000]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Bhelen is an excellent example of how cutthroat Dwarven politics really are. He's just more transparent about it.

Perhaps. Even his father Endrin didn't want him to get the throne. As the coronation scenes prove, he is a poor winner and an equally poor loser.

As to the topic, I don't find it difficult to believe that Bhelen would hunt the remaining Harrowmonts. Why would Renvil need to use the Bhelen card if it wasn't true? Hawke doesn't know Bhelen, but he has had (unpleasant) dealings with the Carta. Wouldn't Hawke be willing to help Renvil against the Carta? In other words why would mentioning Bhelen make Hawke any more willing to help?

Modifié par caradoc2000, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:14 .

[thats1evildude]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Plus if Bhelen was willing to employ the Carta, why not just hire Jarvia to kill Pyral? Pyral Harrowmont dies = Bhelen runs unopposed for king and can intimidate all the Deshyrs into voting for him.

At that point in Origins, the Carta had grown immensely powerful in Orzammar. Attempting to hire Jarvia would be very risky, as she could threaten to expose Bhelen's efforts of an alliance. Even if Harrowmont was murdered — which would be immensely difficult, as he was closely guarded — the Assembly might not look too favourably on their would-be king allying with a bunch of casteless criminals who threaten the security of the city. They might decide to find someone else to take the job.

On the other hand, by the time DA2 rolls around, the Carta is now operating in a surfacer city far away from Orzammar. Bhelen, now secure in his position, can hardly lose face by putting out word that there's a reward for Renvil's death.

The Grey Nayr wrote...

My point is that people are taking a lot on faith. Renvil isn't his uncle, we have no proof of anything beyond his claims, yet we believe him just because it's something we think Bhelen is capable of doing.

Well, let's look at this from another perspective. That quest occurs in Act 1, when you're trying to save up cash for the Deep Roads expedition. This nobleman is offering to pay you if you fight off a bunch of assassins and help him get to his ship. Although you can't truly tell what sort of person he may be, Renvil seems like a decent enough guy who claims that his entire family was murdered by a tyrant. The only other way of getting paid during that quest is to ally with the people trying to kill him. Why NOT help Renvil, other than the fact that the Carta pay slightly better?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 05 janvier 2012 - 07:04 .

[TEWR]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Plus if Bhelen was willing to employ the Carta, why not just hire Jarvia to kill Pyral? Pyral Harrowmont dies = Bhelen runs unopposed for king and can intimidate all the Deshyrs into voting for him.

Bhelen needed to have the Assembly in his favor. If he had hired Jarvia to kill his opponent, it would've been obvious to the Assembly what he did.

And then he wouldn't be able to take the throne.

Remember that a King names the successor, but the Assembly has to approve it.

EDIT: When in doubt about Dwarven politics, always consult the true Dwarven kings of Orzammar!

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:49 .

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

Well, let's look at this from another perspective. That quest occurs in Act 1, when you're trying to save up cash for the Deep Roads expedition. This nobleman is offering to pay you if you fight off a bunch of assassins and help him get to his ship. Although you can't truly tell what sort of person he may be, Renvil seems like a decent enough guy who claims that his entire family was murdered by a tyrant. The only other way of getting paid during that quest is to ally with the people trying to kill him. Why NOT help Renvil, other than the fact that the Carta pay slightly better?

It may seem that they pay better, but Renvil's the former noble who promises to pay more later on. Which he does.

But, I get what you're saying. At that time period for Hawke the Carta pays more.

And IIRC, his guards addressed him as Lord Harrowmont before he called himself such.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:55 .

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EDIT: When in doubt about Dwarven politics, always consult the true Dwarven kings of Orzammar!

Sandal?

He just goes on about … damn, I forgot the word he always uses. Starts with an E, I think. Electrocution? Encapsulation? Estrangement?

[Aggie Punbot]

I think it's Engagement!

[thats1evildude]

TS2Aggie wrote...

I think it's Engagement!

EN-GAGE-MENT!

No, not quite right. Entanglement, maybe?

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EDIT: When in doubt about Dwarven politics, always consult the true Dwarven kings of Orzammar!

Sandal?

He just goes on about … damn, I forgot the word he always uses. Starts with an E, I think. Electrocution? Encapsulation? Estrangement?

The word you're thinking of is Elopement.

Sandal really wants to run away from Bodahn and get married. To fifteen different women. Because he's a Mormon.

He also wants to grow a beard, but Xanthos Aeducan keeps telling him that he needs to take it one step at a time. The beard will overwhelm the ladies too much.

With great beard comes great responsibility, as no one resists a Dwarf.

====================================================

I now want to see Sandal with a beard, just to see how hilarious he'd look. And then I want him to shave it off. Or rip it off.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 janvier 2012 - 06:06 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I thought it was Enrampagement?

[Wulfram]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Plus if Bhelen was willing to employ the Carta, why not just hire Jarvia to kill Pyral? Pyral Harrowmont dies = Bhelen runs unopposed for king and can intimidate all the Deshyrs into voting for him.

Because Harrowmont was holed up in his mansion protected by loads of guards, too paranoid to meet anyone who hadn't first proved their loyalty.

[WhiteKnyght]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

My point is that people are taking a lot on faith. Renvil isn't his uncle, we have no proof of anything beyond his claims, yet we believe him just because it's something we think Bhelen is capable of doing.

Well, let's look at this from another perspective. That quest occurs in Act 1, when you're trying to save up cash for the Deep Roads expedition. This nobleman is offering to pay you if you fight off a bunch of assassins and help him get to his ship. Although you can't truly tell what sort of person he may be, Renvil seems like a decent enough guy who claims that his entire family was murdered by a tyrant. The only other way of getting paid during that quest is to ally with the people trying to kill him. Why NOT help Renvil, other than the fact that the Carta pay slightly better?

Gascard also claimed that his sister was murdered by a powerful blood mage, he sounded believable, but it turned out that he was lying just to find Quentin for his own butthurtness.

Renvil may have tried to assassinate Bhelen, maybe he hired the Carta to do it. But Bhelen lived, found out it was him, and Renvil was forced to flee or be executed for attempted regicide. And after fleeing to the surface, he probably didn't have the amount of money he and the Carta agreed upon and they wanted him dead for it. I imagine assassinating a king would cost a lot more than anything he was able to spare for hiring Hawke.

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Yeah I know Bhelen killed his uncle, but Renvil's story has a few holes with nothing to back it up. You're really just taking his word on it.

1. Bhelen would have no reason to hunt Renvil once he's on the surface. Despite his changes to Orzammar the majority of dwarves believe that once they depart for the surface they aren't true dwarves anymore. So any rights to challenge Bhelen are moot.

2. Bhelen employed the Hero of Ferelden to destroy the Carta operations in Dust Town, so why would the Surface side be willing to work with him rather than give him retribution for Jarvia's death?

3. Why would Kal-Sharok be willing to harbor one of the traditonalist lords from Orzammar who happened to go to the surface? The citizens of Kal-Sharok harbor a grudge against Orzammar for abandoning them and refused to swear fealty to them when Orzammar rediscovered them. Not to mention if they have the same culture, a surface dwarf would be a casteless disgrace the same as Orzammar.

My guess, Renvil probably was either exiled or escaped to avoid death, but angered the Carta in his own way. 

Probably for the same reason that the Antivan Crows target The Warden in Awakening, even though it contradicts what was stated in Origins by Master Ignacio.

[WhiteKnyght]

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Yeah I know Bhelen killed his uncle, but Renvil's story has a few holes with nothing to back it up. You're really just taking his word on it.

1. Bhelen would have no reason to hunt Renvil once he's on the surface. Despite his changes to Orzammar the majority of dwarves believe that once they depart for the surface they aren't true dwarves anymore. So any rights to challenge Bhelen are moot.

2. Bhelen employed the Hero of Ferelden to destroy the Carta operations in Dust Town, so why would the Surface side be willing to work with him rather than give him retribution for Jarvia's death?

3. Why would Kal-Sharok be willing to harbor one of the traditonalist lords from Orzammar who happened to go to the surface? The citizens of Kal-Sharok harbor a grudge against Orzammar for abandoning them and refused to swear fealty to them when Orzammar rediscovered them. Not to mention if they have the same culture, a surface dwarf would be a casteless disgrace the same as Orzammar.

My guess, Renvil probably was either exiled or escaped to avoid death, but angered the Carta in his own way. 

Probably for the same reason that the Antivan Crows target The Warden in Awakening, even though it contradicts what was stated in Origins by Master Ignacio.

Well that's explainable. The nobles probably didn't tell the crows exactly who they were targeting. They probably just said that they wanted the new arl of Amaranthine executed and they would lead the charge. And failed to mention that it was The Hero of Ferelden.