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[thats1evildude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I thought it was Enrampagement?

Fast Jimmy … did you see Regis this morning?

Modifié par thats1evildude, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:33 .

[sylvanaerie]

Yes, I do believe Renvil. Bhelen wouldn't be the first monarch (in real life AND in fiction) to wipe out any and all competition or enemy bloodline, down to the last child. TBH I fully expected this to be the aftermath of Bhelen's rise to power.
I have heard many who played Cousland say they killed Nathaniel Howe because they 'promised themselves they would wipe out every Howe down to the last babe in arms'. And many King Couslands who killed Alistair for the same reasons, as the last of the Theirins. Is it so much of a stretch to believe an ambitious ****** like Bhelen would do the same?

I also believe Bhelen did murder/poison his father to get to the throne that much quicker. I half expect he's so in love with that throne, he'd kill his own son if the boy proved too ambitious/dangerous to Bhelen's power. Yes, I believe he IS that immoral.

At this point Renvil has no reason to lie about this. Hawke doesn't know Bhelen from a hole in the ground, and couldn't care less about dwarven politics especially since they take place in a city under the rock and ACROSS the sea.

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Yeah I know Bhelen killed his uncle, but Renvil's story has a few holes with nothing to back it up. You're really just taking his word on it.

1. Bhelen would have no reason to hunt Renvil once he's on the surface. Despite his changes to Orzammar the majority of dwarves believe that once they depart for the surface they aren't true dwarves anymore. So any rights to challenge Bhelen are moot.

2. Bhelen employed the Hero of Ferelden to destroy the Carta operations in Dust Town, so why would the Surface side be willing to work with him rather than give him retribution for Jarvia's death?

3. Why would Kal-Sharok be willing to harbor one of the traditonalist lords from Orzammar who happened to go to the surface? The citizens of Kal-Sharok harbor a grudge against Orzammar for abandoning them and refused to swear fealty to them when Orzammar rediscovered them. Not to mention if they have the same culture, a surface dwarf would be a casteless disgrace the same as Orzammar.

My guess, Renvil probably was either exiled or escaped to avoid death, but angered the Carta in his own way. 

Probably for the same reason that the Antivan Crows target The Warden in Awakening, even though it contradicts what was stated in Origins by Master Ignacio.

Well that's explainable. The nobles probably didn't tell the crows exactly who they were targeting. They probably just said that they wanted the new arl of Amaranthine executed and they would lead the charge. And failed to mention that it was The Hero of Ferelden.

I think you're putting more thought into this than the writers did when they included the Antivan Crows.

No one in Amaranthine seems to be surprised that The Warden has assumed the mantle of Warden-Commander and Arl of Amaranthine, especially since this is roughly six months after the royal ceremony that took place at the end of Origins. Since it can be assumed that The Warden has been the Commander of the Grey for some time, I don't see why the Antivan Crows would be surprised that The Warden became the Arl of Amaranthine, since the arling is now under the control of the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 06 janvier 2012 - 05:19 .

[LinksOcarina]

At the same time why would it matter? At best, the two attempts on the Warden failed, they were tasked to do it again and went for it.

Professionalism folks, they won't turn down coin even though the target has beaten them twice.

[thats1evildude]

What's the old expression? "There is no honour among thieves." I imagine there is even less among cutthroats like the Crows.

I delight in the fact that Zevran is tearing through that organization like a chainsaw.

[LinksOcarina]

I think they let the wrong elf go free...

I just hope we see Zevran as king of Antiva some day.

[LobselVith8]

LinksOcarina wrote...

At the same time why would it matter? At best, the two attempts on the Warden failed, they were tasked to do it again and went for it.

Professionalism folks, they won't turn down coin even though the target has beaten them twice.

It would matter because it contradicts the story that was provided to us in Origins, and the reasons why the other Houses of Crows wouldn't pursue a Grey Warden had already been listed during the quest.

[thats1evildude]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It would matter because it contradicts the story that was provided to us in Origins, and the reasons why the other Houses of Crows wouldn't pursue a Grey Warden had already been listed during the quest.

Ignacio said they were reluctant to take a contract on the Wardens during the Blight, but ultimately did so because they thought Loghain had a better shot at defeating the darkspawn. The Blight is over in Awakening.

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It would matter because it contradicts the story that was provided to us in Origins, and the reasons why the other Houses of Crows wouldn't pursue a Grey Warden had already been listed during the quest.

Ignacio said they were reluctant to take a contract on the Wardens during the Blight, but ultimately did so because they thought Loghain had a better shot at defeating the darkspawn. The Blight is over in Awakening.

One House accepted the offer, which Zevran thought was a suicide mission. And Ignacio extended an offer to The Warden before he departed to Antiva.

[PrinceLionheart]

sylvanaerie wrote...

I also believe Bhelen did murder/poison his father to get to the throne that much quicker. I half expect he's so in love with that throne, he'd kill his own son if the boy proved too ambitious/dangerous to Bhelen's power. Yes, I believe he IS that immoral.

At this point Renvil has no reason to lie about this. Hawke doesn't know Bhelen from a hole in the ground, and couldn't care less about dwarven politics especially since they take place in a city under the rock and ACROSS the sea.

Yeah, there really is no arguing it. Bhelen is a "reformist" leader, but he's also a paranoid, ruthless, ******. It's not outside the realm of believability that he would go after his rivals heirs. Think about it, one of Bhelen's first acts as the new King is to strip the power away from the Assembly. It'd make sense that the Upper Castes would then support Harrowmount's family to take over the throne since they are Traditionalist. In response, Bhelen kills them one by one to take away any threats from his thrown.

[LinksOcarina]

I thought it was Harrowmont who poisoned Eridan so he can step up and force Behlen out?

That was my understanding of it at least.

[thats1evildude]

Endrin simply died of a broken heart.

[TEWR]

Though Bhelen was planning on poisoning his father, as a kingkiller poison was imported to Orzammar and mistakenly given to a female noble.

[PrinceLionheart]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I thought it was Harrowmont who poisoned Eridan so he can step up and force Behlen out?

That was my understanding of it at least.

It's never explicitly stated who or what caused Endrin's death, but considering it occured shortly after Bhelen caused the death and exile of his two older brothers, the implication poits towards him.

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Though Bhelen was planning on poisoning his father, as a kingkiller poison was imported to Orzammar and mistakenly given to a female noble.

That wasn't necessarily meant for Endrin, though. I imagine poisonings are pretty rampant in Orzammar high society.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Though Bhelen was planning on poisoning his father, as a kingkiller poison was imported to Orzammar and mistakenly given to a female noble.

That wasn't necessarily meant for Endrin, though. I imagine poisonings are pretty rampant in Orzammar high society.

In a time like this though, people were focused more on who should become king rather then their own petty squabbles.

There isn't really any indication that assassinations of other nobles were going on at this time.

Plus, if a noble got mistakenly dosed with a poison meant for another noble, then the noble who imported the poison would know that he messed up and would still try to eliminate his enemy. Just in another form.

Granted, a civil war amongst the Dwarves would provide a good opportunity for this sort of thing, but as I said there isn't any indication that the poison would've been meant for someone else.

Also, Bhelen definitely seems the sort that would try and poison his own father. I imagine the poison was imported to speed up the process of Endrin dying before he could name a successor that wasn't Bhelen. When the poison was given to another noble and Harrowmont was named as successor, Bhelen was forced to resort to calling Harrowmont a usurper.

At least that's how I see it.