171 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamwareStudio]

Realmzmaster wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Unless you have surveyed at least 5 to 10% % of those who bought DA you cannot extrapolate the results with any significance.

I think the size of the sample is less important than the randomness and I won't disagree that there is a homogenous group that comes here to post.  How would I classify that group?  I would classify it as gamers sufficiently passionate about Bioware's games to spend time posting about them online.  So is it a good thing that a significant portion of the people who passionately love your games strongly dislike the latest one?  Probably not.  Can you extrapolate anything useful from the feelings of the passionate fans and apply it to the gamers that are just kind of "meh" about them?  I can't say as I'm not a statistician.  However, I would not want to ****** off the people that love my product the most so that I had to live by the whims of the people that are kind of "meh" about my product.  

Bingo.  You said that much better than I did.  Thank you!

So Bioware should just say goodbye to those who like DA2? Those gamers are just as adamant in their love for DA2. So Bioware should just ****** them off even if they represent a significant percentage of those on the forum. The percentage may not be as large as the lovers of DAO, but it is not a number that can be ignored.

If it comes down to either or, yes, they should.  Why?  Because at least twice as many people liked the previous direction.  You take away the preorder sales from DA 2 and the number of people who purchased DA 2 for what it was seriously shrinks.  That number wil continue to shrink once you shave off the people who bought DA for what it was and disliked DA 2 for what it was.

Even without shaving the preorders and new customers who were dissatisfied, however, you can safely say at least twice the amount of dollars would be earned on an approach (Origins) that will continue to gain them customers and restore goodwill.  No one knows if the DA 2 approach will do either of this things, and I'm guessing that it will not.  They already know the Origins approach does, as seen by the amount of carry-over customers from Origins who purchased DA 2.

My guess is that if Bioware/EA continues down the DA 2 path, the mountain to climb will be too high, and the DA series will most likely die.

No AAA series can continue to exist with sales like that of DA 2 following week 1.

[DreamwareStudio]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Ah, yes! Black Isle Studios who were a division of Interplay. Another company who did not watch their bottomline and were dissolved in 2003. That is why they are a dead legend instead of a living legend.

Great games, poor management.

Actually, Black Isle's games always made money.  It was Interplay's management of other titles that drove them both out of business.  Of course, it seriously did not help that WOTC yanked Interplay's license for the Forgotten Realms. 

Modifié par google_calasade, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:21 .

[Realmzmaster]

eyesofastorm wrote...

Forgive my flippancy.  Here's my thing... it seems like people that hate DA2 tend to love DA:O.  It seems that people that love DA2 tend to at least like DA:O.  I could be wrong about that.  I *think* that has happened at least once before.

No quite a few gamers on this forum love or like DA2, but do not love or  like DAO for various reasons. I place the number at much higher than 12

[Realmzmaster]

google_calasade wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Ah, yes! Black Isle Studios who were a division of Interplay. Another company who did not watch their bottomline and were dissolved in 2003. That is why they are a dead legend instead of a living legend.

Great games, poor management.

Actually, Black Isle's games always made money.  It was Interplay's management of other titles that drove them both out of business.  Of course, it seriously did not help that WOTC yanked Interplay's license for the Forgotten Realms. 

No Black Isle games did not always make money. Planescape: Torment barely broke even. Critically acclaimed, a financial flop.

[Zanallen]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

If you look at Brent Knowless's comment:

I knew that I wasn't going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would be. Party control/tactical combat are huge factors in my enjoyment of a role-playing game as is adopting the role of the hero (i.e., customizing my character)

Yep. It does sound the old BioWare that I've known.
BioWare address much of tactical combat in DLC Legacy, ( I think since I don't buy it. I only based on statement released by BioWare ) but still refuse to leave Party control to player hand's through party customization. Adopting the role of hero from Knowless's perspective also no longer become BioWare's interest as they change from isometeric view to cinematic approach ala JRPG. ( hence polarizing the fans into silent protagonist camp vs voiced protagonist ) 

Knowles. Who was lead on DAO. Which began work in 2004 at least, before Jade Empire and Mass Effect. The cinematic approach to RPGs is something that Bioware has been doing since KotOR. It did not suddenly start with DA2. The cinematic approach also has nothing to do with isometic camera.

[Morroian]

eyesofastorm wrote...

Morroian wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

I would say that all of Bioware's game up to ME2 were VERY original. Not all of them were fantastic in every way. NWN wasn't my bag, but I appreciate what it did in terms of approximating a tabletop RPG in the digital world. JE is very one of a kind as well. I didn't like the gameplay that much, but the setting and story were great. ME1 was also pretty one of a kind. ME2 was where they started homogenizing.

ME1 was the continuation of what they were doing with Kotor.

So... you agree that it was old Bioware or... just that I don't want to misinterpret.  I feel like comparing something to KOTOR translates as old Bioware, but I want to be sure.

IMHO Kotor was the first sign of Bioware going in a more commercial direction. Like Zanallen said I don't think Bioware ever were the company some think they were.

Heck even BG and BG2 were more commercial than rpgs had been before given they popularised the real time approach over the turn based approach. 

Modifié par Morroian, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:27 .

[eyesofastorm]

Realmzmaster wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Forgive my flippancy.  Here's my thing... it seems like people that hate DA2 tend to love DA:O.  It seems that people that love DA2 tend to at least like DA:O.  I could be wrong about that.  I *think* that has happened at least once before.

No quite a few gamers on this forum love or like DA2, but do not love or  like DAO for various reasons. I place the number at much higher than 12

24?  JK my man.  Ep...don't ban me bro!

Modifié par eyesofastorm, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:28 .

[Zanallen]

google_calasade wrote...

If it comes down to either or, yes, they should.  Why?  Because at least twice as many people liked the previous direction.  You take away the preorder sales from DA 2 and the number of people who purchased DA 2 for what it was seriously shrinks.  That number wil continue to shrink once you shave off the people who bought DA for what it was and disliked DA 2 for what it was.

Correction. At least twice as many people purchased the previous game. That doesn't mean all of those people liked it. There is going to be a group of people (I know several, but anecdotal evidence and all that) who purchased DAO, didn't like it and didn't purchase DA2 because of it.

[DreamwareStudio]

Realmzmaster wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Ah, yes! Black Isle Studios who were a division of Interplay. Another company who did not watch their bottomline and were dissolved in 2003. That is why they are a dead legend instead of a living legend.

Great games, poor management.

Actually, Black Isle's games always made money.  It was Interplay's management of other titles that drove them both out of business.  Of course, it seriously did not help that WOTC yanked Interplay's license for the Forgotten Realms. 

No Black Isle games did not always make money. Planescape: Torment barely broke even. Critically acclaimed, a financial flop.

Breaking even is akin to where I put DA 2, honestly, only without the longterm damage.  When I said that I was thinking more along the lines of the BG and Icewind Dale games.

[Zanallen]

google_calasade wrote...

Breaking even is akin to where I put DA 2, honestly, only without the longterm damage.  When I said that I was thinking more along the lines of the BG and Icewind Dale games.

The only BG game Black Isle made was Dark Alliance 2 for the PS2.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Zanallen wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

If it comes down to either or, yes, they should.  Why?  Because at least twice as many people liked the previous direction.  You take away the preorder sales from DA 2 and the number of people who purchased DA 2 for what it was seriously shrinks.  That number wil continue to shrink once you shave off the people who bought DA for what it was and disliked DA 2 for what it was.

Correction. At least twice as many people purchased the previous game. That doesn't mean all of those people liked it. There is going to be a group of people (I know several, but anecdotal evidence and all that) who purchased DAO, didn't like it and didn't purchase DA2 because of it.

But there is no evidence that show people dislike DAO apart form this forum. Overall reception was positive from both critics and users at metacritics.

[DreamwareStudio]

Zanallen wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

If it comes down to either or, yes, they should.  Why?  Because at least twice as many people liked the previous direction.  You take away the preorder sales from DA 2 and the number of people who purchased DA 2 for what it was seriously shrinks.  That number wil continue to shrink once you shave off the people who bought DA for what it was and disliked DA 2 for what it was.

Correction. At least twice as many people purchased the previous game. That doesn't mean all of those people liked it. There is going to be a group of people (I know several, but anecdotal evidence and all that) who purchased DAO, didn't like it and didn't purchase DA2 because of it.

That is true, not everyone who bought DA:O thought it was a good game.  It is safe to say, however, the ones who did think highly of Origins far out-numbered those who did not.  It is also safe to say that had DA 2 possessed no cross-over customers the already low sales would be...whew...really bad.

As I said in an earlier post, if you take away the week 1 sales of DA 2, the subsequent numbers cannot sustain a AAA series for very long.

[In Exile]

Morroian wrote...

IMHO Kotor was the first sign of Bioware going in a more commercial direction. Like Zanallen said I don't think Bioware ever were the company some think they were.

Heck even BG and BG2 were more commercial than rpgs had been before given they popularised the real time approach over the turn based approach. 

I'm stealing this from AlanC9, but his argument was always that Bioware clearly showed they cared about commercialization when BG was made on the D&D ruleset (i.e. the popular, commercial one) and not a lesser known but much better ruleset instead.

[Morroian]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

But there is no evidence that show people dislike DAO apart form this forum. Overall reception was positive from both critics and users at metacritics.

There was a fair bit of negative feedback on the DAO forums in particular from console users.

[DreamwareStudio]

Zanallen wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

Breaking even is akin to where I put DA 2, honestly, only without the longterm damage.  When I said that I was thinking more along the lines of the BG and Icewind Dale games.

The only BG game Black Isle made was Dark Alliance 2 for the PS2.

True, they were the publishers for BG.

I stand corrected.

Modifié par google_calasade, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:40 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Morroian wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

But there is no evidence that show people dislike DAO apart form this forum. Overall reception was positive from both critics and users at metacritics.

There was a fair bit of negative feedback on the DAO forums in particular from console users.

Yes I am well aware of criticism from console players but it didn't reflect that much compare to DA 2's overall reception. DA 2 already address that issue but still... 

[DreamwareStudio]

Morroian wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

But there is no evidence that show people dislike DAO apart form this forum. Overall reception was positive from both critics and users at metacritics.

There was a fair bit of negative feedback on the DAO forums in particular from console users.

Even so, I doubt that feedback was akin to what's been made with DA 2.

Just goes to show you can't hit the panic  (or should I say "awesome") button on a game that sold 4.8M and turn it into something almost unrecognizable.

Modifié par google_calasade, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:43 .

[Realmzmaster]

google_calasade wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

google_calasade wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Ah, yes! Black Isle Studios who were a division of Interplay. Another company who did not watch their bottomline and were dissolved in 2003. That is why they are a dead legend instead of a living legend.

Great games, poor management.

Actually, Black Isle's games always made money.  It was Interplay's management of other titles that drove them both out of business.  Of course, it seriously did not help that WOTC yanked Interplay's license for the Forgotten Realms. 

No Black Isle games did not always make money. Planescape: Torment barely broke even. Critically acclaimed, a financial flop.

Breaking even is akin to where I put DA 2, honestly, only without the longterm damage.  When I said that I was thinking more along the lines of the BG and Icewind Dale games.

Except according to Bioware DA2 seems to have done more than break even. Black Isles only published the BG games (Bioware made them). Black Isle did do Icewind Dale which had a decent story and no romamces when compared to BG. Baldur's Gate : Dark Alliance II  was developed for the consoles. It still was not a big seller.
Fallout was their best seller that they created, but then many members of that team left to form Troika Games (makers of TOEE who are also gone).

Many of the members of Black Isle did go and form Obsidian Entertainment. who have continued the Fallout series under Bethesda.

[DreamwareStudio]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Except according to Bioware DA2 seems to have done more than break even.

Statements from Bioware/EA regarding DA 2 seem to be iffy at best given the interviews and marketing I've seen leading up to the launch for DA 2.

Even without taking that into account, game production is incredibly expensive, even for an 18 month dev cycle.  Honestly, I don't know that I believe the number of copies sold for DA 2 made a significant amount of money.  I'm guessing the profit was marginal to average and certainly not worth the damage they sustained regarding reputation.

Hopefully, they've taken everything to heart, and the next DA release we see will be a lot better in regards to reception, profitability, and sustainability.  I see a lot of promise for the world of Thedas and I would hate to see it ruined.

Modifié par google_calasade, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:49 .

[eyesofastorm]

Just want to apologize if I offended anyone. We had a good convo here and it is my nature to be a Dick. Just wanted to emphasize that I am a Dick with a sense of humor and I was having a laugh and maybe that didn't translate well. Here's hoping DA3 fulfills all of our fantasies... err... most of them.

[In Exile]

eyesofastorm wrote...

Just want to apologize if I offended anyone. We had a good convo here and it is my nature to be a Dick. Just wanted to emphasize that I am a Dick with a sense of humor and I was having a laugh and maybe that didn't translate well. Here's hoping DA3 fulfills all of our fantasies... err... most of them.

Warden and Hawke as romance options for the fixed protagonist Sandal! 

....


.... err....

Modifié par In Exile, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:55 .

[migang]

Mike Laidlaw left the lead on DA3?

That means no more "Awesome" button?

Nice!

[eyesofastorm]

In Exile wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Just want to apologize if I offended anyone. We had a good convo here and it is my nature to be a Dick. Just wanted to emphasize that I am a Dick with a sense of humor and I was having a laugh and maybe that didn't translate well. Here's hoping DA3 fulfills all of our fantasies... err... most of them.

Warden and Hawke as romance options for the fixed protagonist Sandal! 

....


.... err....

All of them except that one.

[DreamwareStudio]

eyesofastorm wrote...

Just want to apologize if I offended anyone. We had a good convo here and it is my nature to be a Dick. Just wanted to emphasize that I am a Dick with a sense of humor and I was having a laugh and maybe that didn't translate well. Here's hoping DA3 fulfills all of our fantasies... err... most of them.

Ooh, yeah, Morrigan, you sexy minx, come here...

Oops, I've revealed too much, it seems.

Huh, Leliana snuck in there as well.

[DreamwareStudio]

migang wrote...

Mike Laidlaw left the lead on DA3?

That means no more "Awesome" button?

Nice!

He was promoted to a higher station overseeing DA 3.  Still, I doubt we'll be seeing any reference to an awesome button.