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[Gaseous Shepard]

Shepard is male, so that's why he is male in the trailer.

Femshep was invented for those who wanted to be a female. Just be happy you got that.

[Ashley_SR2]

As informative as this thread's discussion has become, I still get the feeling the OP was just trolling. He has only made one post and that was to create this thread, he hasn't even replied to any responses.

But I suppose that the discussion itself was worth it - Nice to see people's takes on it.

Modifié par Ashley_SR2, 05 janvier 2012 - 02:10 .

[Gaseous Shepard]

Ha.......You're prolly right.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Bethesda proves otherwise.

Not really. What you think it disproves isn't actually what you're arguing against.

I am not argueing against something as much as for something. What disturbs me most is Sheploo. Whether he is male or female or what race is almost secondary to the fact that we are to make our own hero and Bioware advertises one specifically which is then mostly refered to in any wallpaper/sscreen etc.

Congratulations to the world of advertising for an attempt at an iconic character.

Shepard was never meant to be the Warden, or a Champiion: a title without a face. A large part of Shepard's story centers around being a personal symbol.

I can't even have an ME/ME2 background on this forum without stupid Sheploo's face. They could just keep Shep's face conceiled. Would it be so hard?

No, but it would hinder their efforts at an iconic character. Which they really were going for, and which has benefited them greatly. Space marines in armor are a dime a thousand.

It's not appealing to me personaly and I bet neither to many others.

And yet many people pick Sheploo's face when they have numerous other options to choose from. Since no one is forced on this forum to choose a Shepard avatar, people who do must have some appeal from it.

Do not assign your views to a multitude and ignore the dissenting multitude.

The idea that you need a 'face' for your franchise is indeed disproven by Bethesda because they don't need one and are more successful.

And this is where you don't understand what you're arguing against.

There may be other reasons for their success, but hell, the fact their marketing seems to not need a 'face' makes is pretty clear that whoever thinks this kind of thing is imporant is obviously wrong.

It's not wrong, you just don't like it.

Different games, and different franchies, and different companies purseiw different strategies. Being able to succede without an aspect doesn't mean the aspect isn't important: advertising strategies are no more uniform than genres of games, and you'd never argue that because Halo succeded wildly without squadmates squadmates aren't important in shooting games.

Some franchies succede on an iconic character. Others succede without an iconic character. But more fail by trying either. It doesn't deligitimize any strategy.

[AlexXIV]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bioware has never been sympathetic in its stories to racists or racial theories even in the games it has included such, and has routinely villified them. Socially progressive, liberal characters and themes have routinely been treated much more sympathetically, and are far more prevalent. Bioware actually struggles to cast racist and/or authoritarian characters as anything but significantly antagonistic.

Bioware has repeatedly pushed the envelope of socially acceptable content, to much criticism. It has helped bring bisexual and even homosexul romances and characters into an emerging mainstream of characters.

There are certainly many game makers who can deserve to be accused of racism and socially reactionary games and practices. Bioware is not one of them.

Agreed! This is the thing that strikes me as the most ridiculous, BioWare is for sure the most PC maker of RPG games around, and we all know it.

I'd go so far as to say anyone who pretends otherwise is being... wilful.

Just because you're doing good in this respect doesn't mean you have to stop there. I mean it's like patting someone on the back for being the least racist/sexist guy in a room full of racist/sexist guys.

[mineralica]

Ashley_SR2 wrote...

As informative as this thread's discussion has become, I still get the feeling the OP was just trolling. He has only made one post and that was to create this thread, he hasn't even replied to any responses.

But I suppose that the discussion itself was worth it - Nice to see people's takes on it.

I've always extremely suspicious to just registered people who create threads on potentially inflammatory topics.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Well you implied I didn't understand it.

You're rather demonstrating that you don't.

So I assume you do?

I believe I have more than you in this circumstance. You are assigning racist motivations where none are necessitated, and claiming positions that don't stand on what you think they stand on.

Or did you just say that because you felt the need to say something?

No one would say anything if they didn't feel an urge to speak.

In this case, your assignment of malevolent motivations on what could be a rather benign advertising strategy by an exceptionally progressive game designer tickled my interest.

[AlexXIV]

mineralica wrote...

Ashley_SR2 wrote...

As informative as this thread's discussion has become, I still get the feeling the OP was just trolling. He has only made one post and that was to create this thread, he hasn't even replied to any responses.

But I suppose that the discussion itself was worth it - Nice to see people's takes on it.

I've always extremely suspicious to just registered people who create threads on potentially inflammatory topics.

I personally judge troll posts by content, not join date. There may be various reasons. Maybe she didn't want to risk posting with her registered account in fear of hate mails or whatever. I thought there was nothing trollish in the OP, aside from the title maybe. But as I said, the actual OP relativates it.

[Ashley_SR2]

Good points about content not registration   But they didn't even reply to their own forum topic? That's just like running into a room full of people and going "You're all sexist!" and running out.

Modifié par Ashley_SR2, 05 janvier 2012 - 02:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

If I'd asked Bioware to change the world it would be asked too much. But doing their part probably without any costs and a chance to even be more successful? Doubt it. They only need to TRY to make ONE trailer in 5 games so far (since DA:O) without showing the male protagonist. Asked too much you say? Then we have to disagree.

Jade Empire doesn't count since it was too early, apparently? Or SWTOR, because it was too recent?

Also this whole 'main demographic' is a bit about racism/sexism.

It's actually about consumer habits. You can look to Hollywood as well, since they follow a lot of the same studies.

Because if I looked like that I would not play video games but instead have a new girl every week.

Not a guy? Homophobe! Don't be exclusionary!

/this was a blatant example of unbased reasoning on a claim advancing only one demgraphic

So people can connect to a hero that looks much better than themselves but not to one who has a darker skin or is of opposite sex? Even if they have 99% the same lines in the game? Only difference are the LIs tbh. If that's not a racist/sexist line of thought then I don't know one.

How aware are you with the concept of projection onto fictional characters?

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Well you implied I didn't understand it.

You're rather demonstrating that you don't.

So I assume you do?

I believe I have more than you in this circumstance. You are assigning racist motivations where none are necessitated, and claiming positions that don't stand on what you think they stand on.

Or did you just say that because you felt the need to say something?

No one would say anything if they didn't feel an urge to speak.

In this case, your assignment of malevolent motivations on what could be a rather benign advertising strategy by an exceptionally progressive game designer tickled my interest.

They don't have malevolent motivations. People are racists to a certain point. Some more, some less. Because races as such are different and people fear what is different. There is alot of superstition you can even see in many posts as for example that a different skin color implies a different thought process or whatever. I mean it may be true for different cultures, but not for color of skin. What I accuse Bioware of is supporting them with their male white blue-eyed heroes. I mean what would happen if they chose a not-so-white person with not-so-blue eyes. Doesn't have to be black or asian. Maybe just mixed up. Without clear race. Whatever. Their heroes look a certain way, basically Shep was the Warden of DA:O and by that say look, this is what heroes look like. It actually goes beyond race/sex. I hate it and will ever hate it.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

If I'd asked Bioware to change the world it would be asked too much. But doing their part probably without any costs and a chance to even be more successful? Doubt it. They only need to TRY to make ONE trailer in 5 games so far (since DA:O) without showing the male protagonist. Asked too much you say? Then we have to disagree.

Jade Empire doesn't count since it was too early, apparently? Or SWTOR, because it was too recent?

Also this whole 'main demographic' is a bit about racism/sexism.

It's actually about consumer habits. You can look to Hollywood as well, since they follow a lot of the same studies.

Because if I looked like that I would not play video games but instead have a new girl every week.

Not a guy? Homophobe! Don't be exclusionary!

/this was a blatant example of unbased reasoning on a claim advancing only one demgraphic

So people can connect to a hero that looks much better than themselves but not to one who has a darker skin or is of opposite sex? Even if they have 99% the same lines in the game? Only difference are the LIs tbh. If that's not a racist/sexist line of thought then I don't know one.

How aware are you with the concept of projection onto fictional characters?

I am no homophobe, I am hetero. There is a difference. And I am not saying that I am any better than anyone. I am obviously not very familar with the concept of projection because for the most part i play femShep. And I don't think I am her at any time of the day. She's just the hero of my story. Point is if I can do it, everyone can. Because I am not that special.

And no, older games don't count because we are talking about the now and the future.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 janvier 2012 - 02:28 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

They don't have malevolent motivations. People are racists to a certain point. Some more, some less. Because races as such are different and people fear what is different. There is alot of superstition you can even see in many posts as for example that a different skin color implies a different thought process or whatever. I mean it may be true for different cultures, but not for color of skin. What I accuse Bioware of is supporting them with their male white blue-eyed heroes. I mean what would happen if they chose a not-so-white person with not-so-blue eyes. Doesn't have to be black or asian. Maybe just mixed up. Without clear race. Whatever. Their heroes look a certain way, basically Shep was the Warden of DA:O and by that say look, this is what heroes look like. It actually goes beyond race/sex. I hate it and will ever hate it.

You hate it without understanding what it even is. You're calling it racist because you hate it, not hating it because it's racist.

What Bioware is doing is appealing to the preferences of their audience. But doing so is no more racist than having a preference is.

[mineralica]

AlexXIV wrote...


I personally judge troll posts by content, not join date. There may be various reasons. Maybe she didn't want to risk posting with her registered account in fear of hate mails or whatever. I thought there was nothing trollish in the OP, aside from the title maybe. But as I said, the actual OP relativates it.

I personally judge trolls by attempts to start flamewars. Or, more precisely, by attempt to start flamewar without being long-term follower of one side (for example, people who have long history on BSN as supporters or haters of femShep / s/s romances / Cerberus and creating topics about femShep / s/s romances / Cerberus are not trolls. Newcomers who jumps in and create such topics possibly are).

Lack of hate speech or bashing in OP can't serve as evidence of "not trolling" since not all trolls are "fat". But baiting on hot topic and leaving afterwards can serve as evidence of contrary.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

They don't have malevolent motivations. People are racists to a certain point. Some more, some less. Because races as such are different and people fear what is different. There is alot of superstition you can even see in many posts as for example that a different skin color implies a different thought process or whatever. I mean it may be true for different cultures, but not for color of skin. What I accuse Bioware of is supporting them with their male white blue-eyed heroes. I mean what would happen if they chose a not-so-white person with not-so-blue eyes. Doesn't have to be black or asian. Maybe just mixed up. Without clear race. Whatever. Their heroes look a certain way, basically Shep was the Warden of DA:O and by that say look, this is what heroes look like. It actually goes beyond race/sex. I hate it and will ever hate it.

You hate it without understanding what it even is. You're calling it racist because you hate it, not hating it because it's racist.

What Bioware is doing is appealing to the preferences of their audience. But doing so is no more racist than having a preference is.

It's racist because they are shaping the preference of their audience.

[AlexXIV]

mineralica wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...


I personally judge troll posts by content, not join date. There may be various reasons. Maybe she didn't want to risk posting with her registered account in fear of hate mails or whatever. I thought there was nothing trollish in the OP, aside from the title maybe. But as I said, the actual OP relativates it.

I personally judge trolls by attempts to start flamewars. Or, more precisely, by attempt to start flamewar without being long-term follower of one side (for example, people who have long history on BSN as supporters or haters of femShep / s/s romances / Cerberus and creating topics about femShep / s/s romances / Cerberus are not trolls. Newcomers who jumps in and create such topics possibly are).

Lack of hate speech or bashing in OP can't serve as evidence of "not trolling" since not all trolls are "fat". But baiting on hot topic and leaving afterwards can serve as evidence of contrary.

Some topics will always start flamewars, like this. There is no way to express your concern about this topic without causing flamewars. But maybe we should not give all the blame to the OP. Just sayin'.

[nitefyre410]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

They don't have malevolent motivations. People are racists to a certain point. Some more, some less. Because races as such are different and people fear what is different. There is alot of superstition you can even see in many posts as for example that a different skin color implies a different thought process or whatever. I mean it may be true for different cultures, but not for color of skin. What I accuse Bioware of is supporting them with their male white blue-eyed heroes. I mean what would happen if they chose a not-so-white person with not-so-blue eyes. Doesn't have to be black or asian. Maybe just mixed up. Without clear race. Whatever. Their heroes look a certain way, basically Shep was the Warden of DA:O and by that say look, this is what heroes look like. It actually goes beyond race/sex. I hate it and will ever hate it.

You hate it without understanding what it even is. You're calling it racist because you hate it, not hating it because it's racist.

What Bioware is doing is appealing to the preferences of their audience. But doing so is no more racist than having a preference is.

It's racist because they are shaping the preference of their audience.

 

Wait ... WHAT !?  

[AlexXIV]

nitefyre410 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

They don't have malevolent motivations. People are racists to a certain point. Some more, some less. Because races as such are different and people fear what is different. There is alot of superstition you can even see in many posts as for example that a different skin color implies a different thought process or whatever. I mean it may be true for different cultures, but not for color of skin. What I accuse Bioware of is supporting them with their male white blue-eyed heroes. I mean what would happen if they chose a not-so-white person with not-so-blue eyes. Doesn't have to be black or asian. Maybe just mixed up. Without clear race. Whatever. Their heroes look a certain way, basically Shep was the Warden of DA:O and by that say look, this is what heroes look like. It actually goes beyond race/sex. I hate it and will ever hate it.

You hate it without understanding what it even is. You're calling it racist because you hate it, not hating it because it's racist.

What Bioware is doing is appealing to the preferences of their audience. But doing so is no more racist than having a preference is.

It's racist because they are shaping the preference of their audience.

 

Wait ... WHAT !?  

It's racist because they are shaping the preference of their audience.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...


I am no homophobe, I am hetero. There is a difference.

Not from your style of argument.

And I am not saying that I am any better than anyone. I am obviously not very familar with the concept of projection because for the most part i play femShep. And I don't think I am her at any time of the day. She's just the hero of my story. Point is if I can do it, everyone can. Because I am not that special.

One of the historic trends of consumerism is that people read things and like characters they can identify with: not literal similarities, as you tried to argue against earlier, but as much as what people want to be. A major part of that is identity, and two major parts of that are race and gender. Demographic groups don't focus on characters of their own demographic more because they hate other demographics, but simply because demographic similarity appeals to them. They project their own aspects on the hero (or heroine) as part of the experience. It doesn't mean they won't enjoy other things, but it does factor into the appeal.


Bioware is always about projection leads. You are Shepard. You will save the galaxy. Shepard has always been cast as someone to project themselves on.

And no, older games don't count because we are talking about the now and the future.

That leaves us with KOTOR, the only current Bioware game, and ME3.

KOTOR has had a smorgesboard of races, genders, and colors in the advertising. ME3 has continued with a promotional Shepard established years ago, in the past and not the now and future. He's not worth weighin in on because he's from a bygone day. ME3 will, however, eventually output fan-selected FemShep.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

It's racist because they are shaping the preference of their audience.

And this is where your failing is. You're confusing cause and effect. And what racism is.

Hint: creating a character with an identity isn't it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2012 - 02:53 .

[Gotholhorakh]

AlexXIV wrote...
If I'd asked Bioware to change the world it would be asked too much. But doing their part probably without any costs and a chance to even be more successful? Doubt it. They only need to TRY to make ONE trailer in 5 games so far (since DA:O) without showing the male protagonist. Asked too much you say? Then we have to disagree.

I think this is where we would disagree, on what "their part" is. I don't think anyone else should be on my moral crusades unless they want to be, least of all companies that are trying to make money.

It might be nice for some people if there are female protagonists in trailers , and I'd like to see it myself. More power to BioWare and its fans if they do that, great.

What I disagree with, is the notion that BioWare is sexist. What is sexist - literally and definitively sexist is the notion that something is sexist if it has a man in it, and that it should be changed to the "correct gender".

Also this whole 'main demographic' is a bit about racism/sexism. I mean you imply that male white gamers don't buy a game because the protagonist has a tan skin.

Just before that point goes further, I certainly haven't implied that! but moving on

Basically, even if that were true (which it well may be, IANAAE), that would be something you kept in mind while advertising, and you would leverage that knowledge sensibly to bring in money. You don't make marketing for any other reason than to let people know they might want to buy your product.

I think that as long as the advert/trailer's made in total good faith, and it's not outrageously offensive or indecent or anything, the notion of messing up some company's advertising to push a particular moral message (possibly to the detriment of the shareholders and employees of that company) seems both illogical and a little bit scary.

How many people out there look like Sheploo? Probably as much as look like the new femShep. Next to none. Because if I looked like that I would not play video games but instead have a new girl every week. So people can connect to a hero that looks much better than themselves but not to one who has a darker skin or is of opposite sex? Even if they have 99% the same lines in the game? Only difference are the LIs tbh. If that's not a racist/sexist line of thought then I don't know one.

I'm struggling to understand what you think BioWare should do.

Firstly: If people think something they want to think, however tiresome, mentally deficient or reprehensible, then how in the name of Sam Hill is that a "problem" that BioWare has a moral responsibility to "fix" with their marketing budget instead of selling their product.

Secondly: If the world sucks, what are you saying BioWare should do exactly? If it is true that some majority of all gamers are racist sexist homophobes because they're straight white males (oh, the irony) what would be your proposed course of action? Strive against that by marketing against what those people will buy? Go out of business to no effect by refusing to "pander" to what people like?

It seems like if that is true, that would be your proposed course of action. Go bust because the world sucks.

If BioWare feel it is their moral duty, as many of the rest of us do, to make the world a better, less sexist, racist, homophic place then peachy, awesome, but I don't really think you have thought through what you're saying.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

 ME3 will, however, eventually output fan-selected FemShep.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

What I disagree with, is the notion that BioWare is sexist. What is sexist - literally and definitively sexist is the notion that something is sexist if it has a man in it, and that it should be changed to the "correct gender".

Indeed. Token affirmative action is racist in and of itself.

I'm struggling to understand what you think BioWare should do.

Firstly: If people think something they want to think, however tiresome, mentally deficient or reprehensible, then how in the name of Sam Hill is that a "problem" that BioWare has a moral responsibility to "fix" with their marketing budget instead of selling their product.

Secondly: If the world sucks, what are you saying BioWare should do exactly? If it is true that some majority of all gamers are racist sexist homophobes because they're straight white males (oh, the irony) what would be your proposed course of action? Strive against that by marketing against what those people will buy? Go out of business to no effect by refusing to "pander" to what people like?

It seems like if that is true, that would be your proposed course of action. Go bust because the world sucks.

If BioWare feel it is their moral duty, as many of the rest of us do, to make the world a better, less sexist, racist, homophic place then peachy, awesome, but I don't really think you have thought through what you're saying.

You forget that it's Bioware's duty to do this in the advertising, no less, rather than insert sympathetic liberalism and discredit bigotry over the course of the game itself.

It isn't even the content of the games.

[Homebound]

dcwarnow wrote...

One thing I have discovered, is that I dislike how the only Shepherd shown in the trailers is the male version.

Before you start complaining, I understand that they had to pick one style of Shepherd to show for cohesion's sake. I get it. And it is not that I am not familiar with it; my boyfriend has played it many times, so I can recognize the male voice as being from the game. Also, I realize that if developers tried to do a trailer for every character version, then there would be thousands of trailers to watch. But in this case, they only have two voice choices: male or female. Why not showcase both of them?

When I played ME1, I got used to that Shepherd's voice. Having recently finished ME2, and after applauding the fact that they got the original voice actress to do the voice again, I eagerly began looking up trailers for the next one. However, I found myself bored during them. And they're talking about how the reapers are HERE, so I should be totally stoked! But there is something about not being able to at least hear the Shepherd that I have grown to care about.

That may just be me being picky. Does anyone else wish they would release at least one trailer with the opposite sex's voice?

it would be cool if they released a female trailer. but is the lack of one sexist? i dont think so. You cant please everypony and thats just how the world works sometimes.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

 ME3 will, however, eventually output fan-selected FemShep.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Why? You've ignorred the advertising they've already done that defies your narrative.