387 réponses à ce sujet

[Xeranx]

Abraham_uk wrote...

dcwarnow wrote...

One thing I have discovered, is that I dislike how the only Shepherd shown in the trailers is the male version.

Before you start complaining, I understand that they had to pick one style of Shepherd to show for cohesion's sake. I get it. And it is not that I am not familiar with it; my boyfriend has played it many times, so I can recognize the male voice as being from the game. Also, I realize that if developers tried to do a trailer for every character version, then there would be thousands of trailers to watch. But in this case, they only have two voice choices: male or female. Why not showcase both of them?

When I played ME1, I got used to that Shepherd's voice. Having recently finished ME2, and after applauding the fact that they got the original voice actress to do the voice again, I eagerly began looking up trailers for the next one. However, I found myself bored during them. And they're talking about how the reapers are HERE, so I should be totally stoked! But there is something about not being able to at least hear the Shepherd that I have grown to care about.

That may just be me being picky. Does anyone else wish they would release at least one trailer with the opposite sex's voice?

Is it sexist? No.

However showcasing a female Shepard would be nice.

Here is what I would describe as sexist.

If every single female character was a useless damsel in distress and a solely a sex object and nothing else. If all the female characters whined all the time, made angry comments about the bold knights that saved them, then betrayed the knights out of spite of being saved. Then got captured for the 5th time in the game. The bold hero has to save the damsell again! Then she suddenly warms to him, melts and makes love, but still remains consistent by making stupid remarks and not having a clue what is going on.

Bioware has never done this.

I AM TIRED AND SICK OF CHARACTERS THAT KEEP GETTING CAPTURED ALL THE TIME!!!!! I'M TIRED OF THEM HAVING NOTHING USEFUL TO DO IN THE PLOT AND BEING THE ANNOYING PERSON WHO EVENTUALLY WARMS UP TO THE KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOUR. IF I WANTED TAMING OF THE SHREW, I'D WATCH THE PLAY PERFORMED IN STRATFORD UPON AVON BY PROPER SHAKESPERIAN ACTORS. NOT BY LOOSERS WHO DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHAT A GOOD GAME IS.

Seriously, that almost sounds like Bella Swan throughout the Twilight saga.  Yes, I read the books. 

[Last Vizard]

Darth Death wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Darth Death wrote...

Not a lot of gamers play as femshep...

Plenty do.  About 1/5th of all ME players.  That works out to a lot of people.

That's not a lot... And I'm not trying to add salt to the wound but: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/07/20/only-18-of-mass-effect-players-play-female/

With that said, I'm trying to discredit those who play as femshep. This is only for citation proposes.   

Friend of mine always plays female... I laughed so hard when he was annoyed that Garrus wanted a piece of him while he's trying for the Asari hahaha

[nitefyre410]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

I honestly think this knee-jerk monitoring of everybody and everything for PCness is the arch enemy of egalitarianism and liberal progressive change and does nothing but provoke defensive revulsion in most people.

BioWare is a company that has fostered and encouraged an inclusive atmosphere in its games and community and taken a hell of a lot of flak for it - I can't see how anyone can dispute that since the evidence of it is plain for us all to see.

The fact that BioWare, even BioWare can be in the reticule, targeted as "sexist" and "racist" on such a mindless basis is further evidence of how silly it all is.

 

not only this but it  trivualizes  the struggles of those that have been though and experienced  this very things and that is just as if not worst. 

[Darth Death]

 

 Canidate 88766 wrote...

He's not saying they don't count, he's saying that despite 400,000 people playing as FemShep there are 1,600,000 people not playing as FemShep. There may be a lot of FemShep players but according to those stats they are still in the minority. 

That's exactly where I was going. You said it better than myself. 

[rabidhanar]

Xeranx wrote...
Seriously, that almost sounds like Bella Swan throughout the Twilight saga.  Yes, I read the books. 

I know your pain. Read the entire Saga for 100 bucks. Not worth it at all. Oh and I was forced to see all the movies so far  (movie critic here, hate every last one of those accursed movies!)
sorry for getting off topic guys.

Modifié par rabidhanar, 05 janvier 2012 - 03:44 .

[nitefyre410]

Xeranx wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

dcwarnow wrote...

One thing I have discovered, is that I dislike how the only Shepherd shown in the trailers is the male version.

Before you start complaining, I understand that they had to pick one style of Shepherd to show for cohesion's sake. I get it. And it is not that I am not familiar with it; my boyfriend has played it many times, so I can recognize the male voice as being from the game. Also, I realize that if developers tried to do a trailer for every character version, then there would be thousands of trailers to watch. But in this case, they only have two voice choices: male or female. Why not showcase both of them?

When I played ME1, I got used to that Shepherd's voice. Having recently finished ME2, and after applauding the fact that they got the original voice actress to do the voice again, I eagerly began looking up trailers for the next one. However, I found myself bored during them. And they're talking about how the reapers are HERE, so I should be totally stoked! But there is something about not being able to at least hear the Shepherd that I have grown to care about.

That may just be me being picky. Does anyone else wish they would release at least one trailer with the opposite sex's voice?

Is it sexist? No.

However showcasing a female Shepard would be nice.

Here is what I would describe as sexist.

If every single female character was a useless damsel in distress and a solely a sex object and nothing else. If all the female characters whined all the time, made angry comments about the bold knights that saved them, then betrayed the knights out of spite of being saved. Then got captured for the 5th time in the game. The bold hero has to save the damsell again! Then she suddenly warms to him, melts and makes love, but still remains consistent by making stupid remarks and not having a clue what is going on.

Bioware has never done this.

I AM TIRED AND SICK OF CHARACTERS THAT KEEP GETTING CAPTURED ALL THE TIME!!!!! I'M TIRED OF THEM HAVING NOTHING USEFUL TO DO IN THE PLOT AND BEING THE ANNOYING PERSON WHO EVENTUALLY WARMS UP TO THE KNIGHT IN SHINING ARMOUR. IF I WANTED TAMING OF THE SHREW, I'D WATCH THE PLAY PERFORMED IN STRATFORD UPON AVON BY PROPER SHAKESPERIAN ACTORS. NOT BY LOOSERS WHO DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA OF WHAT A GOOD GAME IS.

Seriously, that almost sounds like Bella Swan throughout the Twilight saga.  Yes, I read the books. 

but but Stephenia Meyers has to be the  next  JK Rowlings...she HAS TO BE .

I have not . nor will I read the books ...nor can any one tell that Twilight is good piece of writing in  any form  book or film. 

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I'll send you a pm when the game launches without the trailer.

You probably won't. You're not honest enough to acknowledge that Bioware has made and promoted games without centering on white males, both in the past (Jade Empire) and present (SWTOR), so even if you did remember you probably would just say nothing.

What? I said Jade Empire was long ago

And so were ME1 and DAO. Selectively setting the goal posts to shut out anything to the contrary is dishonest.

and SWTOR is an MMO there is not even a single protagonist in that game.

There is: you.

SWTOR is a story-centered game revolving around the player. It's effectively DA if someone else could join in to help you with your quests. It's a standard Bioware plotline, including the character being the center of the story development across a self-contained plotline.


SWTOR is as much a Bioware RPG as any other.

I take the last 4 games because they are recent. Between DA:O and Jade Empire are like 5 years. And JE was a fail and the sequel is ... where? Nowhere. Also SWTOR does not have one single protagonist, that's right, the game has many. As every MMO. For every class a new protagonist and he's probably not the 'hero that saves the day' because it doesn't usually work in MMOs.

[rabidhanar]

AlexXIV wrote...
I take the last 4 games because they are recent. Between DA:O and Jade Empire are like 5 years. And JE was a fail and the sequel is ... where? Nowhere. Also SWTOR does not have one single protagonist, that's right, the game has many. As every MMO. For every class a new protagonist and he's probably not the 'hero that saves the day' because it doesn't usually work in MMOs.

So a gaming company cannot be judged on games that were out earlier?

JE being a fail (your opinon FTR) does in no way effect the fact that the main protagonist was not a White Male.
For SWTOR I count it as a conglomeration of multiple RPG storylines in an MMO setting. Each individual character is indeed the "hero that saves the day". There are storyline missions that cannot be played with any other player, just as there are flashpoints that require a group. The fact remains that multiple skin tones and aliens were showcased in trailers and whatnot.

Modifié par rabidhanar, 05 janvier 2012 - 03:50 .

[Gotholhorakh]

AlexXIV wrote...

rabidhanar wrote...

Every
single poster I saw of Skyrim had Mr. Freezing Cold there on it. His
Face wearing the helmet and two wispy smoke trails going around it.

Here is one now.

AlexXIV wrote...
If the trailer comes before launch I win. If it doesn't I at least get to send you guys a pm.

There is no winning or losing in this. You think this is a contest?

Still
can't see his face. He is just a Nord in a game that plays in the
Skyrim which is the homeland of the Nord. Some things just make sense
the way they are. And as I said, that they even had to pick the white
guy in Fallout is a shame. Still not the poster boy of the game.

Considering the fact that you seem to say the existence of white people in game trailers is in and of itself racist, how on Earth would comments of this tone be morally defensible?

Wha... The mind boggles, it really does.

nitefyre410 wrote...

not
only this but it  trivualizes  the struggles of those that have been
though and experienced  this very things and that is just as if not
worst. 

Indeed, and threatens to damage progress.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 05 janvier 2012 - 03:55 .

[AlexXIV]

rabidhanar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I take the last 4 games because they are recent. Between DA:O and Jade Empire are like 5 years. And JE was a fail and the sequel is ... where? Nowhere. Also SWTOR does not have one single protagonist, that's right, the game has many. As every MMO. For every class a new protagonist and he's probably not the 'hero that saves the day' because it doesn't usually work in MMOs.

So a gaming company cannot be judged on games that were out earlier?

JE being a fail (your opinon FTR) does in no way effect the fact that the main protagonist was not a White Male.
For SWTOR I count it as a conglomeration of multiple RPG storylines in an MMO setting. Each individual character is indeed the "hero that saves the day". There are storyline missions that cannot be played with any other player, just as there are flashpoints that require a group. The fact remains that multiple skin tones and aliens were showcased in trailers and whatnot.

If you look at the direction a company takes you have to see historical context. It may be that with the different skin tones etc. they have done better than in ME/DA. I that case I can only hope they keep it up. Probably not in ME3, but in future single player games. I really didn't pay much attention to SWTOR yet.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

I take the last 4 games because they are recent. Between DA:O and Jade Empire are like 5 years.

4.
Jade Empire was 2005, seven years ago.
ME1 was 2007, five years ago.
DA:O was 2009, three years ago
ME2 was 2010, two years ago.
DA2 was 2011, one year again.


ME1 was two years after Jade Empire, far closer to it than now. ME2 carried the advertising they had already established five years ago.

And JE was a fail and the sequel is ... where? Nowhere.

Now, might it's fail be partly because it didn't appropriately appeal to Bioware's key demographics?

That, perhaps, a game of Chinese culture (through Western Eyes) with Chinese characters and Chinese themeology, did not break open new demographics by virtue of being NOT white male, and failed the key demographics to be a success?

Also SWTOR does not have one single protagonist, that's right, the game has many. As every MMO. For every class a new protagonist and he's probably not the 'hero that saves the day' because it doesn't usually work in MMOs.

You might as well say that because every player has their own Shepard, there's no one Mass Effect protagonist.

SWTOR is a player-centered storyline, like all other Bioware RPGs. Being an MMO doesn't change that, surprisingly enough, any more than ME3 is invalidated because it offers a co-op.

[AlexXIV]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

rabidhanar wrote...

Every
single poster I saw of Skyrim had Mr. Freezing Cold there on it. His
Face wearing the helmet and two wispy smoke trails going around it.

Here is one now.

AlexXIV wrote...
If the trailer comes before launch I win. If it doesn't I at least get to send you guys a pm.

There is no winning or losing in this. You think this is a contest?

Still
can't see his face. He is just a Nord in a game that plays in the
Skyrim which is the homeland of the Nord. Some things just make sense
the way they are. And as I said, that they even had to pick the white
guy in Fallout is a shame. Still not the poster boy of the game.

Considering the fact that you seem to say the existence of white people in game trailers is in and of itself racist, how on Earth are comments of this tone morally defensible?

Wha... The mind boggles, it really does.

nitefyre410 wrote...

not
only this but it  trivualizes  the struggles of those that have been
though and experienced  this very things and that is just as if not
worst. 

Indeed, and threatens to damage progress.

I don't say that picking a white guy is wrong. In context with other examples thought that they always do it. It is the same as if you are the boss of a company. You hire a new guy, he is white. Racism? Sexism? Problably not, at least there is no evidence of it. Now if you look at the company as a whole and all your employees are white and male? There you got it. It's about, for once, showing that they are not afraid to pick something that is not white and male.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 janvier 2012 - 03:59 .

[nitefyre410]

rabidhanar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I take the last 4 games because they are recent. Between DA:O and Jade Empire are like 5 years. And JE was a fail and the sequel is ... where? Nowhere. Also SWTOR does not have one single protagonist, that's right, the game has many. As every MMO. For every class a new protagonist and he's probably not the 'hero that saves the day' because it doesn't usually work in MMOs.

So a gaming company cannot be judged on games that were out earlier?

JE being a fail (your opinon FTR) does in no way effect the fact that the main protagonist was not a White Male.
For SWTOR I count it as a conglomeration of multiple RPG storylines in an MMO setting. Each individual character is indeed the "hero that saves the day". There are storyline missions that cannot be played with any other player, just as there are flashpoints that require a group. The fact remains that multiple skin tones and aliens were showcased in trailers and whatnot.

 

Which comes to my earlier point of that none of these characters  can't be racist or  not, sexist or not because they are not characters... they are just avatars.. nothing more.   Its not like say  GTA with  CJ  as its main protaganist or  50 Cent Bullet Proof which present blacks  Males as how they are  more often or not protrayed.  No there is no character for Shepard to portray male or female because there is no character just an avatar.

[rabidhanar]

AlexXIV wrote...
I don't say that picking a white guy is wrong. In context with other examples thought that they always do it. It is the same as if you are the boss of a company. You hire a new guy, he is white. Racism? Sexism? Problably not, at least there is no evidence of it. Now if you look at the company as a whole and all your employees are white and male? There you got it. It's about, for once, showing that they not afraid to pick something that is not white and male.

Or it could simply be that the employer sought out the best people in that field of work and they happen to be white. Color had nothing to do with it, perhaps it was merely a coincedence. An unexpected coincedence, yes, but a coincedence. Frankly if I was that employer and I had two resumes in front of me, I would choose the mroe qualified resume, regardless of race. That is not being racist, that is having good business sense.

Purposefully hiring someone because of their race is just as wrong as purposefully NOT hiring someone because of their race. Skin color should never apply to any choice. A rule that should be applied to every single choice we ever make.

Modifié par rabidhanar, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:07 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

rabidhanar wrote...

Every
single poster I saw of Skyrim had Mr. Freezing Cold there on it. His
Face wearing the helmet and two wispy smoke trails going around it.

Here is one now.

AlexXIV wrote...
If the trailer comes before launch I win. If it doesn't I at least get to send you guys a pm.

There is no winning or losing in this. You think this is a contest?

Still
can't see his face. He is just a Nord in a game that plays in the
Skyrim which is the homeland of the Nord. Some things just make sense
the way they are. And as I said, that they even had to pick the white
guy in Fallout is a shame. Still not the poster boy of the game.

Considering the fact that you seem to say the existence of white people in game trailers is in and of itself racist, how on Earth would comments of this tone be morally defensible?

Wha... The mind boggles, it really does.

More stupid is that his rational for it (that advertising a character makes the audience more attracted to that character, and is thus discriminatory to other groups) applies to all fictional characters with distinctive traits, regardless of the group or the trait.

The problem wouldn't go away if advertising Shepard were black: it would simply be a racist company trying to shape people's preferences into liking blacks. If it were a woman, Bioware would be trying to shape audiences into liking female protagonists at the expense of others. The root of the sin doesn't go away, since the sin of discrimination is apparently putting forward any distinguished person.

Hell, the Master Chief could be a woman under that suit and it would still be discriminatory to people who don't wear armor.

There is no logical limit to it. A Human Warden would be discriminatory against shorter people (like dwarfs). A broad-shouldered sillouete would be discriminatory against the thin. A thin figure would be an offense against the broad.


The only 'moral' advertising would be one without characters at all. And that could probably be lambasted as an insult to the blind.

[Il Divo]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That, perhaps, a game of Chinese culture (through Western Eyes) with Chinese characters and Chinese themeology, did not break open new demographics by virtue of being NOT white male, and failed the key demographics to be a success?

Too soon, mate. I loved Jade Empire. Brilliant plot, setting, pacing, and characters. Damn shame they let it go. It had so much potential.

[Gotholhorakh]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't say that picking a white guy is wrong. In context with other examples thought that they always do it. It is the same as if you are the boss of a company. You hire a new guy, he is white. Racism? Sexism? Problably not, at least there is no evidence of it. Now if you look at the company as a whole and all your employees are white and male? There you got it. It's about, for once, showing that they not afraid to pick something that is not white and male.

You got it?

You've got what? I'm sorry, but because of the sentence before it, it kind of looks like you're saying "you've got evidence of racism".

I can't be sure that's what you're saying.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't say that picking a white guy is wrong. In context with other examples thought that they always do it. It is the same as if you are the boss of a company. You hire a new guy, he is white. Racism? Sexism? Problably not, at least there is no evidence of it. Now if you look at the company as a whole and all your employees are white and male? There you got it. It's about, for once, showing that they are not afraid to pick something that is not white and male.

A tragic misunderstanding of discrimination.

Discrimination isn't when you end up with one dominant demographic: discrimination is when you end up with one dominant demographic because you reject other demographics on the basis of their demographic.

There are endless reasons why a workplace might end up dominanted by one demographic group or another, without discrimination.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:09 .

[Candidate 88766]

AlexXIV wrote...
I don't say that picking a white guy is wrong. In context with other examples thought that they always do it. It is the same as if you are the boss of a company. You hire a new guy, he is white. Racism? Sexism? Problably not, at least there is no evidence of it. Now if you look at the company as a whole and all your employees are white and male? There you got it. It's about, for once, showing that they are not afraid to pick something that is not white and male.

Their last six games:

Jade Empire
Mass Effect 
DA:O
Mass Effect 2
DA2
SW:TOR

Two of these did not feature a prominent protagonist at all in the marketing (DA:O and SW:TOR) and one of them focused on an Asian woman (Jade Empire).

So thats only half of them that heavily feature a white male protagonist in the marketing, and ME2 can be forgiven because it is a direct sequel to ME2, featuring the same character, so of course they were going to keep the same person in the marketing.

So they've shown that they don't always go for the white male in marketing.

And irrespective of the marketing, Bioware is one of the few developers that actually features non-sterotypical characters of virtually every ethnicity within its game. So what if they don't slap them on the posters? The game itself is the important bit, and that is where Bioware shows that it isn't afraid to subvert sterotypes.

[nitefyre410]

rabidhanar wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I don't say that picking a white guy is wrong. In context with other examples thought that they always do it. It is the same as if you are the boss of a company. You hire a new guy, he is white. Racism? Sexism? Problably not, at least there is no evidence of it. Now if you look at the company as a whole and all your employees are white and male? There you got it. It's about, for once, showing that they not afraid to pick something that is not white and male.

Or it could simply be that the employer sought out the best people in that field of work and they happen to be white. Color had nothing to do with it, perhaps it was merely a coincedence. An unexpected coincedence, yes, but a coincedence. Frankly if I was that employer and I had two resumes in front of me, I would choose the mroe qualified resume, regardless of race. That is not being racist, that is having good business sense.

Purposefully hiring someone because of their race is just as wrong as purposefully NOT hiring someone because of their race. Skin color should never apply to any choice. Something that should be applied to every single choice we ever make.

 

Oh that opens the door to much broader debate about the lack of the in adqeuate  focus on computers, math,  reading and writing ... in low income  niegberhoods and the state of the school systems.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If a business decision is automatically right because it is a business decision, then if your main demographic are ... n4zis, then it makes it right to sell n4zi propaganda? There is business ethics and ethics in general. And I would say ethics in general are more valuable than business ethics.
 
I think companies like Bioware ... or Bethesda ... actually all media can use their influence to encourage diversity. I mean what is the demographic for movies that star a black actor, like Will Smith? Only black people? Doubt it. It actually even bothers me that in many movies the white guy always gets the white girl and the black guy always gets the black girl. What the ...? Are they afraid of bad reaction to a mixed couple? Sometimes you get the feeling. Thing is if you work in the media you are not just someone running a business. You are a multiplier you give a message to many people. And what it this message supposed to be? That the majority is always right? That everyone stick to his own race?

I mean if you sell a car or coffee or computer or whatever. Then that's it. But if you sell stories you also sell the message of that story. It's not the same and people have to realize that. Because it touches the mind and shapes it.

[Il Divo]

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't say that picking a white guy is wrong. In context with other examples thought that they always do it. It is the same as if you are the boss of a company. You hire a new guy, he is white. Racism? Sexism? Problably not, at least there is no evidence of it. Now if you look at the company as a whole and all your employees are white and male? There you got it. It's about, for once, showing that they are not afraid to pick something that is not white and male.

Wait, what? The examples aren't equivalent at all. The entire point of the advertising, as others have pointed out, is aiming for your target demographic. What does that have to do with employing qualified individuals in a particular job opportunity? Unless you're going to provide information on how all those white workers were chosen, it's still not even remotely racism.

The two have entirely different motivations which separates why one example focuses on a white demographic (advertising) where the other focuses on employing the most qualified individuals possible (the company).

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:10 .

[rabidhanar]

nitefyre410 wrote...
Oh that opens the door to much broader debate about the lack of the in adqeuate  focus on computers, math,  reading and writing ... in low income  niegberhoods and the state of the school systems.

Which quite frankly I do not care about if I am an employer. I am not going to feel sorry for someone for being underqualified, I am merely going to toss aside their resume. Boo hoo, you cannot get the job done well because you could not get the proper education. As an employer, the excuse does not matter: you could not do the job well, end of line. Do not waste my time.

And regardless of your income, education, etc. you can be successful. I have known people that worked in Walmart who are millionaires, no joke. It is not about how much you get paid, it is how you spend and save.

Flame me all you want, go right ahead. I will not be harmed in the slightest, heck I will probably chuckle at your actions.

Now can we get out of this example, talking politics wears on my nerves.

Modifié par rabidhanar, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:16 .

[slimgrin]

Slidell505 wrote...

Once again the BSN is unable to identify a legitimate troll post.

And I am among the guilty.

[nitefyre410]

rabidhanar wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
Oh that opens the door to much broader debate about the lack of the in adqeuate  focus on computers, math,  reading and writing ... in low income  niegberhoods and the state of the school systems.

Which quite frankly I do not care about if I am an employer. I am not going to feel sorry for someone for being underqualified, I am merely going to toss aside their resume. Boo hoo, you cannot get the job done well because you could not get the proper education. As an employer, the excuse does not matter: you could not do the job well, end of line. Do not waste my time.

And regardless of your income, education, etc. you can be successful. I have known people that worked in Walmart who are millionaires, no joke. It is not about how much you get paid, it is how you spend and save.

Flame me all you want, go right ahead. I will not be harmed in the slightest, heck I will probably chuckle at your actions.

Now can we get out of this example, talking politics wears on my nerves.

 

Well you're  the one that took what I said as a knock  on  your point ... I was just merely stating that it opens up a broader discussion. 

And you took as if I did not agree with you ... where I never said  I didn't .

So calm down.. please.

Modifié par nitefyre410, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:21 .