387 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I don't say that picking a white guy is wrong. In context with other examples thought that they always do it. It is the same as if you are the boss of a company. You hire a new guy, he is white. Racism? Sexism? Problably not, at least there is no evidence of it. Now if you look at the company as a whole and all your employees are white and male? There you got it. It's about, for once, showing that they are not afraid to pick something that is not white and male.

A tragic misunderstanding of discrimination.

Discrimination isn't when you end up with one dominant demographic: discrimination is when you end up with one dominant demographic because you reject other demographics on the basis of their demographic.

There are endless reasons why a workplace might end up dominanted by one demographic group or another, without discrimination.

Being dominated is one thing, but being exclusive another. If you have a company with 100+ employees and none is not white or male, what are the chances that you only picked the 'best for the job'? Unless you assume a certain race/sex is unable to do a certain job. In that case I would like an example.

[DDG4005]

aksoileau wrote...

Ugh this thread has turned for the worse.

Indeed.

[rabidhanar]

nitefyre410 wrote...
Well you  the one that took what I said as a knock  on  your point ... I was just merely stating that it opens up a broader discussion. 

And you took as if I did not agree with you ... where I never said  I didn't ...

Actually, I am sorry that I did not explain who that was targeted at. Stating my opinoin on that matter out in broad daylight to everyone. Was nothing against you or anyone else, justing giving people context to further input by me.

I always hate that excuse, it frustrates me to no end. I remember back in the day where how well you worked made a hell of a bigger difference then what skin color you are. This new society is quite wrong in that regard. Who to blame for the change, I cannot say. It is taking a simple concept (working well = getting hired) and adding a bunch of hoops and clauses to it.

Modifié par rabidhanar, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:24 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

If a business decision is automatically right because it is a business decision, then if your main demographic are ... n4zis, then it makes it right to sell n4zi propaganda?

Besides the tragic invocation of Godwin's Law, I happen to believe in freedom of speach enough that I'd defend it. The only sustainable defense against insanity is rationality, not mutual insanity.

All freedom of expression accepts the right of others to express themselves as well even if you don't like it.

There is business ethics and ethics in general. And I would say ethics in general are more valuable than business ethics.

Ethics in general are business ethics. Ethics in general respect the right of people to their own property, and their own priorities, without coercion unless they are being destructive.



 

I think companies like Bioware ... or Bethesda ... actually all media can use their influence to encourage diversity. I mean what is the demographic for movies that star a black actor, like Will Smith? Only black people? Doubt it.

Then read up, because it's true.

There are relatively few black actors who have broken through to succede with white audiences: that's why black Hollywood stars are rarer than the rest.


What you're advocating is that someone force companies to try and change public behavior to something you approve of. Which, ironically, is a pretty racist view of proper racial balances. The problem with that is, well, why should it be your view that directs how these people push somone else's morality on others?

It actually even bothers me that in many movies the white guy always gets the white girl and the black guy always gets the black girl. What the ...? Are they afraid of bad reaction to a mixed couple?

Consumers do react negatively, by and large, unless the cross-race coupling is a theme of the movie.

Sometimes you get the feeling. Thing is if you work in the media you are not just someone running a business. You are a multiplier you give a message to many people. And what it this message supposed to be? That the majority is always right? That everyone stick to his own race?

There is no message.

If you assign motivation of allegory to everything, you've simply assigned motivation to things that don't have it. The movie isn't saying 'mixed race couplings are bad', and pushing it in people's head. It's reflecting 'you pay me money to give you what you want.'

I mean if you sell a car or coffee or computer or whatever. Then that's it. But if you sell stories you also sell the message of that story. It's not the same and people have to realize that. Because it touches the mind and shapes it.

Romanticism aside, it's not the company you dislike. It's the consumer base. You just see the company as the means of pushing your morals on others. And that everyone should have your view pushed on them because it's yours. For some reason, you also think advertising is the way to do it.

The hilarious thing is, Bioware does do a significant part in pushing the boundaries to make things more acceptable, and has never defended bigotry. Bioware enables everyone to pick their own race, design their own characters, and enables them to pursue their own relationships and explore.

But that's not coercive enough for you. You don't want Bioware to allow diversity: you want them to push it on others to change others.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:43 .

[AlexXIV]

rabidhanar wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
Well you  the one that took what I said as a knock  on  your point ... I was just merely stating that it opens up a broader discussion. 

And you took as if I did not agree with you ... where I never said  I didn't ...

Actually, I am sorry that I did not explain who that was targeted at. Stating my opinoin on that matter out in broad daylight to everyone. Was nothing against you or anyone else, justing giving people context to further input by me.

I always hate that excuse, it frustrates me to no end. I remember back in the day where how well you worked made a hell of a bigger difference then what skin color you are. This new society is quite wrong in that regard. Who to blaim for the change, I cannot say. It is taking a simple concept (working well = getting hired) and adding a bunch of hoops and clauses to it.

Because it is simplification. You cannot control everyone in regard of the reasons they hire people. So they say you have to employ that and that many to make sure you are not discriminating for race. Is it a perfect system? No? But neither is racism. I have seen too many people complain about others getting their job even though they less qualified, and turned out it was wrong. This kind of statement is really just an excuse. As a white guy if you are competent and relieable you have less problem to find a job than anyone else.

[Gotholhorakh]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

*snip*

What a spiffing post. Props.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
.

But that's not coercive enough for you. You don't want Bioware to allow diversity: you want them to push it on others to change others.

To your own logic, how is a non-white-male protagonist featured in a trailer pushing something on anyone? You said it yourself that Bioware is letting you play who you want it. It is not a push, it is a suggestion. One that you can agree with or not. So what would be the worst that can happen if Bioware used a female or black protagonist in their trailer?

[nitefyre410]

rabidhanar wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...
Well you  the one that took what I said as a knock  on  your point ... I was just merely stating that it opens up a broader discussion. 

And you took as if I did not agree with you ... where I never said  I didn't ...

Actually, I am sorry that I did not explain who that was targeted at. Stating my opinoin on that matter out in broad daylight to everyone. Was nothing against you or anyone else, justing giving people context to further input by me.

I always hate that excuse, it frustrates me to no end. I remember back in the day where how well you worked made a hell of a bigger difference then what skin color you are. This new society is quite wrong in that regard. Who to blame for the change, I cannot say. It is taking a simple concept (working well = getting hired) and adding a bunch of hoops and clauses to it.

It should be like but  my life expirence  and the experiences of other I know tells me  something different.  Yes its equally as frustrating to me as well -  maybe even more so than  I get across  in a post on the BSN - I doubt I could put into words.

[rabidhanar]

and I say it IS racism. You are purposefully hiring an individual because of color. I do not care what your motivations are, however good intended. When color becomes part of the equation, it is racism. Good or bad results do not dictate racism. It is the act of modified behavior due to creed of Color.

Demographic is different, though I do not have the fluency of the english language to argue for that. I leave that to different individuals.

Modifié par rabidhanar, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:46 .

[AlexXIV]

rabidhanar wrote...

and I say it IS racism. You are purposefully hiring an individual because of color. I do not care what your motivations are, however good intended. When color becomes part of the equation, it is racism. Good or bad results do not dictate racism. It is the act of selection due to color/creed.

Demographic is different, though I do not have the fluency of the english language to argue for that. I leave that to different individuals.

They do not hire other races because they are of other races. They hire them because they are just as good or better. The only difference is that they don't hire a white guy instead even though he is worse at the job. Because that's what happens if you don't have these kind of laws.

It may look like you have to be a bit of a racist to fight racism at times. That's the world we live in. Was it perfect we wouldn't even have to talk about this.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:38 .

[Gotholhorakh]

AlexXIV wrote...
To your own logic, how is a non-white-male protagonist featured in a trailer pushing something on anyone?

Because whereas you are reading motivations into things on film without any reason to believe they exist, in the case of your different protagonist, you have explicitly stated that it is for such a purpose.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:39 .

[rabidhanar]

AlexXIV wrote...
They do not hire other races because they are of other races. They hire them because they are just as good or better. The only difference is that they don't hire a white guy instead even though he is worse at the job. Because that's what happens if you don't have these kind of laws.

And how do you know that they hired because they are as good or better? If your force a position to be X race, you cut out competition from Y race. Y race can no longer be in that position, that is a racist action against Y race.

The individual hired might be the best individual in the World at that particular field, but if you prevent someone else from even being looked at due to creed of color, that is racism.

Modifié par rabidhanar, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Being dominated is one thing, but being exclusive another. If you have a company with 100+ employees and none is not white or male, what are the chances that you only picked the 'best for the job'?

Rare but not impossible, context depending. You don't recruit from a population as a whole, after all, and only when you need to.


Let's take engineering. Forty years ago, women didn't do engineering by and large, and the main demographic that produced engineers was the white male demographic.

A company started in that time would naturally start with a predominantly white male demographic. If that company was stable and had a good retention policy, it wouldn't change at the same rate as the demographic of 'availalbe non-white non-male' population, because it isn't always hiring them. Even as the ratio of 'white male replacement' lowers from nearly 1:1 to, oh, 3:5, a company can still (by reoccuring chance) still maintain a force dominated by white males without discrimination.

Unless you assume a certain race/sex is unable to do a certain job. In that case I would like an example.

Infiltraiting the KKK. :happy:

Situations where being unnoticed in a specific racial group aside, let's take foreign language expertise. Say Chinese. Most Chinese speakers in the US are, well, Chinese related. It's not a skill that is widely spread outside the group. A company that needs twenty Chinese speakers could well end up hiring twenty chinese because they're the most available and proficient the compay could find at the time for an acceptable price.

But you also ignore the 'certain race/sex groups may no't want a certain job', which does happen. Quite frequently. Demographics do not universally share all preferences.  The primary consumers and producers of written male gay porn, for example, are heterosexual women. One of the more vehement anti-gay demographic groups is black men. Even without the population difference, you're not as likely to find a black man writing gay porn as a white person.


Or, to put a more bizaar twist, no matter how progressive their hiring policies, don't count on many Jews at the Neo**** party headquarters.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:48 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
.

But that's not coercive enough for you. You don't want Bioware to allow diversity: you want them to push it on others to change others.

To your own logic, how is a non-white-male protagonist featured in a trailer pushing something on anyone?

It isn't to me. The race isn't the point or the message of the character.

For you, however, the race of an advertisement is a deliberate message. 'White' is the wrong one. Or, to repost the briliance...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
To your own logic, how is a non-white-male protagonist featured in a trailer pushing something on anyone?

Because
whereas you are reading motivations into things on film without any
reason to believe they exist, in the case of your different protagonist,
you have explicitly stated that it is for such a purpose.

You said it yourself that Bioware is letting you play who you want it. It is not a push, it is a suggestion. One that you can agree with or not. So what would be the worst that can happen if Bioware used a female or black protagonist in their trailer?

Advertising campaign doesn't catch on and is neglected by key demographics.

The game, despite it's quality in execution, never catches the notice of the consumer base. It flops.


Edit: Not really bad enough, so...

With the flop of the game, Bioware loses major invester and consumer confidence, even as other studios with less race-centered advertising campaigns launch a number of successes. Bioware sheds its customer base, tries to march into conservative game making, and dwindles as a minor company.

As Bioware falls, the market vacuume is filled by a new, socially reactionary company who is vocally opposed to Bioware's socially liberal characters. Producing games that unapolgetically villify various cultural minority groups and sexualization of women, but are accepted for their otherwise stellar quality and superb writing, Faux (that's the company) goes on to lead a conservative surge across the gaming genres, leading to the rise of a counter-culture of games with authoriatirain overtones, masculine male leads, objectified women, and little sympathy for minority sexual groups.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:02 .

[Il Divo]

AlexXIV wrote...

To your own logic, how is a non-white-male protagonist featured in a trailer pushing something on anyone? You said it yourself that Bioware is letting you play who you want it. It is not a push, it is a suggestion. One that you can agree with or not. So what would be the worst that can happen if Bioware used a female or black protagonist in their trailer?

Primarily because you have motivation, which is what separates racist actions from not racist actions. Bioware appealing to their target demographic is not racist. If their target demographic were black college-level students, Bioware would be appealing to them instead, hence why the comparisons are not equivalent.

Your comparison however is motivated by a desire to go against the status quo. You yourself call it a "suggestion", which still leaves the issue that if Bioware used a female or black protagonist, I could start claiming that they are discriminating against any group not provided for in the advertising.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:47 .

[Dean_the_Young]

rabidhanar wrote...

and I say it IS racism. You are purposefully hiring an individual because of color. I do not care what your motivations are, however good intended. When color becomes part of the equation, it is racism. Good or bad results do not dictate racism. It is the act of modified behavior due to color/creed.

Creed of color. Not creed or color.

[nitefyre410]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Being dominated is one thing, but being exclusive another. If you have a company with 100+ employees and none is not white or male, what are the chances that you only picked the 'best for the job'?

Rare but not impossible, context depending. You don't recruit from a population as a whole, after all, and only when you need to.


Let's take engineering. Forty years ago, women didn't do engineering by and large, and the main demographic that produced engineers was the white male demographic.

A company started in that time would naturally start with a predominantly white male demographic. If that company was stable and had a good retention policy, it wouldn't change at the same rate as the demographic of 'availalbe non-white non-male' population, because it isn't always hiring them. Even as the ratio of 'white male replacement' lowers from nearly 1:1 to, oh, 3:5, a company can still (by reoccuring chance) still maintain a force dominated by white males without discrimination.

Unless you assume a certain race/sex is unable to do a certain job. In that case I would like an example.

Infiltraiting the KKK. :happy:

Situations where being unnoticed in a specific racial group aside, let's take foreign language expertise. Say Chinese. Most Chinese speakers in the US are, well, Chinese related. It's not a skill that is widely spread outside the group. A company that needs twenty Chinese speakers could well end up hiring twenty chinese because they're the most available and proficient the compay could find at the time for an acceptable price.

But you also ignore the 'certain race/sex groups don't want a certain job', which does happen. Quite frequently. Demographics do not universally share all preferences.  The primary consumers and producers of written male gay porn, for example, are heterosexual women. One of the more vehement anti-gay demographic groups is black men. Even without the population difference, you're not as likely to find a black man writing gay porn as a white person.

Not that I'm gay but god don't remind me - I look at some my friends and go.."You do know not even 100 years that would be you right.? "

[txmn1016]

I don't think it's sexist that only a maleshep trailer exists. I just think it sucks. I was promised a femshep trailer and that's why I want it. Its 2 mos. away from the game release and there have been 3 or 4 trailers/game excerpts released featuring maleshep. Where's my femshep, Bioware? I'm a girl, and I'm going to buy the game regardless, but it still sucks that the game isn't being marketed (in a substantial way) to me (or the hoards of other female gamers).

[Trinity Shep]

Ok so i just fell upon this this and thought i would make a comment.

First, i dont think its sexist, id say its stupid... especially that they said they would come out with a trailer for FemShep and nothing has happened, no one would know that she is even a default now if they werent trying to keep up with the news in the game.

Second, Some of you need to calm down, yes this is frustrating but they still have 2 months, If you check the people that work for BioWare and are working on ME3 its not a finished product yet so i think maybe i would rather them finish checking for bugs in the game that shift to something else.. one thing at a time!

Third, Sorry if Shep sounds Canadian and all that, after all BioWare is proudly Canadian, From Edmonton! Which i am so happy about as i too am Canadian!

So ya it pisses me off too that they havent come out for a FemShep trailer like they promised but i think finishing the game and announcing the demo is a bit more important to me. They are all on Christmas break till they 9th, im sure when they come back they will have a few surprises up their sleeves!

Modifié par Trinity Shep, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

nitefyre410 wrote...

Not that I'm gay but god don't remind me - I look at some my friends and go.."You do know not even 100 years that would be you right.? "

Too true.


It's actually quite an interesting field of study. Hyper-masculine cultures can often be some of the most insecure, particularly challenges to their masculinity. Homosexuality in men is still seen as 'efiminante' in many respects, not manly, despite the ancient Greeks and Romans building one of the most masculine cultures in the world.

In today's society, homosexuality is seen as demasculating. In ye olden days, not indulging in homosexuality was suspect. It wasn't just accepted, but to some extent expected for a man to pick up a younger boy.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2012 - 04:55 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Trinity Shep wrote...

So ya it pisses me off too that they havent come out for a FemShep trailer like they promised but i think finishing the game and announcing the demo is a bit more important to me.

The funny thing is that despite the furore I think it is realistically likely to appear at some point.

[txmn1016]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Trinity Shep wrote...

So ya it pisses me off too that they havent come out for a FemShep trailer like they promised but i think finishing the game and announcing the demo is a bit more important to me.

The funny thing is that despite the furore I think it is realistically likely to appear at some point.

Fingers crossed! They listen to their fans so I'm sure your'e right.

[Mecha Tengu]

RAWR im a girl gamer I demand to be represented

curse those bioware overlords, sexist man pig chauvinist opressors


^

lol cmon, none of us males give a thought about sexism or racism when it comes to a promotional trailer. You all need to relax

[nitefyre410]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

Not that I'm gay but god don't remind me - I look at some my friends and go.."You do know not even 100 years that would be you right.? "

Too true.


It's actually quite an interesting field of study. Hyper-masculine cultures can often be some of the most insecure, particularly challenges to their masculinity. Homosexuality in men is still seen as 'efiminante' in many respects, not manly, despite the ancient Greeks and Romans building one of the most masculine cultures in the world.

In today's society, homosexuality is seen as demasculating. In ye olden days, not indulging in homosexuality was suspect. It wasn't just accepted, but to some extent suspected for a man to pick up a younger boy.

This all true and add that on top the already skewed preception of  what a man is how a man carry himself.   Most peoples defination of how a man should act  today .

the good  big boys don't cry  which one of the reason we may be looking at serious rise of   depression in  young men and men today period.

[aksoileau]

I don't care if I can change Shepard's gender or change his skin color to whatever I want. That trailer is sexist and racist!!!!111