387 réponses à ce sujet

[Palidane]

Alex, I got a question for you. Let's say some company has 200 employees, and everyone one of them is a black male. It is not a company where there is a reason for this, like male modelling. Would you still consider this exclusive company to be racist?

[billy the squid]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
.

But that's not coercive enough for you. You don't want Bioware to allow diversity: you want them to push it on others to change others.

To your own logic, how is a non-white-male protagonist featured in a trailer pushing something on anyone?

It isn't to me. The race isn't the point or the message of the character.

For you, however, the race of an advertisement is a deliberate message. 'White' is the wrong one. Or, to repost the briliance...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
To your own logic, how is a non-white-male protagonist featured in a trailer pushing something on anyone?

Because
whereas you are reading motivations into things on film without any
reason to believe they exist, in the case of your different protagonist,
you have explicitly stated that it is for such a purpose.

You said it yourself that Bioware is letting you play who you want it. It is not a push, it is a suggestion. One that you can agree with or not. So what would be the worst that can happen if Bioware used a female or black protagonist in their trailer?

Advertising campaign doesn't catch on and is neglected by key demographics.

The game, despite it's quality in execution, never catches the notice of the consumer base. It flops.

Indeed. This is a numbers game it's all economics and marketing, it is not the place for an equal opportunities bonanza.

[Lucky Thirteen]

I want to throw my two cents in.

I don't think the trailer is sexist. I would like to see a femShep trailer though and I want to be patient about it. Until ME3 comes out and there is no trailer of course, cause then I'll complain.

Actually I'd preferred it if Shepard had remained vague all along. A helmeted person who is genderless. Can't help but note that ME1 manShep is a vague helmeted person on the front of the case, while femShep is a vague helmeted person on the back.

At this point, because of the shift to having a face on manShep for advertising purposes, making Shepard vague is impossible because manShep is recognizable to the general audience. However I don't think creating a recognizable femShep face is impossible. I think it's an intelligent marketing move.

So many of the female fans of Mass Effect were drawn to the game because of finding out from their boyfriends and husbands and friends that you can play femShep. Logically, advertising femShep to the world will bring in more fans. Keeping it strictly manShep is of course going to keep the fanbase mostly male. You're not attracting anyone new by keeping the same practices that brought in the same existing fanbase. The point of advertising is to attract the old consumers and attract new consumers, not attract only old consumers. There is no profit in that. That is why the game continues to be dominated by a male audience. A potential female audience isn't aware of the game because there is nothing in advertising to say, hey, you can play a female character that you can relate to just like the male audience gets a male character they can relate to. It is advertised for males only and that alienates the potential female consumers who have an interest in gaming.

They could really break out and go into race even. Create a trailer that has different Shepard appearances through out it. Like those advertisements for Resistance, Modern Warfare, and Assassins Creed, showing the different people as the character of the game.

You see, I have a dream. That dream is that femSheps and manSheps can coexist and have a sexy orgy of respectful gender and racial equality.

This game has brought in so many different people of different backgrounds and different beliefs, it's created a lot of conflict here on the BSN. But instead of fighting, we should be coming together as friends and fans. Because, we can all agree on one thing.

Commander Shepard rules.

Modifié par Lucky Thirteen, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:10 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

You see, I have a dream. That dream is that femSheps and manSheps can coexist and have a sexy orgy of respectful gender and racial equality. 

Say you have a white femShep and a black MShep.

Who tops?

[Trinity Shep]

txmn1016 wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Trinity Shep wrote...

So ya it pisses me off too that they havent come out for a FemShep trailer like they promised but i think finishing the game and announcing the demo is a bit more important to me.

The funny thing is that despite the furore I think it is realistically likely to appear at some point.

Fingers crossed! They listen to their fans so I'm sure your'e right.

Yes well like i said they still have 2 months! thats 60 days! I am sure they will bring what the fans want, they have been great with it so far! And Canadians are terrible liars lol

[Lucky Thirteen]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

You see, I have a dream. That dream is that femSheps and manSheps can coexist and have a sexy orgy of respectful gender and racial equality. 

Say you have a white femShep and a black MShep.

Who tops?

They will take turns. Flipping and rolling around wildly. On the couch and on the floor and against the wall. Cause they would be that awesome.

[Trinity Shep]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

I want to throw my two cents in.

I don't think the trailer is sexist. I would like to see a femShep trailer though and I want to be patient about it. Until ME3 comes out and there is no trailer of course, cause then I'll complain.

Actually I'd preferred it if Shepard had remained vague all along. A helmeted person who is genderless. Can't help but note that ME1 manShep is a vague helmeted person on the front of the case, while femShep is a vague helmeted person on the back.

At this point, because of the shift to having a face on manShep for advertising purposes, making Shepard vague is impossible because manShep is recognizable to the general audience. However I don't think creating a recognizable femShep face is impossible. I think it's an intelligent marketing move.

So many of the female fans of Mass Effect were drawn to the game because of finding out from their boyfriends and husbands and friends that you can play femShep. Logically, advertising femShep to the world will bring in more fans. Keeping it strictly manShep is of course going to keep the fanbase mostly male. You're not attracting anyone new by keeping the same practices that brought in the same existing fanbase. The point of advertising is to attract the old consumers and attract new consumers, not attract only old consumers. There is no profit in that. That is why the game continues to be dominated by a male audience. A potential female audience isn't aware of the game because there is nothing in advertising to say, hey, you can play a female character that you can relate to just like the male audience gets a male character they can relate to. It is advertised for males only and that alienates the potential female consumers who have an interest in gaming.

They could really break out and go into race even. Create a trailer that has different Shepard appearances through out it. Like those advertisements for Resistance, Modern Warfare, and Assassins Creed, showing the different people as the character of the game.

You see, I have a dream. That dream is that femSheps and manSheps can coexist and have a sexy orgy of respectful gender and racial equality.

This game has brought in so many different people of different backgrounds and different beliefs, it's created a lot of conflict here on the BSN. But instead of fighting, we should be coming together as friends and fans. Because, we can all agree on one thing.

Commander Shepard rules.

Well they have made a default FemShep.. they did this quite a while ago, the votes went on Facebook! As for your idea of every Shep being custom i love that idea! Too bad it wouldnt work for marketing, atleast i dont think it would work!

Anyways here is a link to the picture of the FemShep that won the votes!

http://4.bp.blogspot...3-wallpaper.jpg

[Xeranx]

So I'm going to ask this question given what I've read on the last few pages:

Does that mean that if someone created a protagonist of color and/or made that protagonist female that it would imply that a certain viewpoint is being forced?

Modifié par Xeranx, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:21 .

[nitefyre410]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

You see, I have a dream. That dream is that femSheps and manSheps can coexist and have a sexy orgy of respectful gender and racial equality. 

Say you have a white femShep and a black MShep.

Who tops?

They will take turns. Flipping and rolling around wildly. On the couch and on the floor and against the wall. Cause they would be that awesome.

 


Good answer  better than the over intellectual answe that I was going  give.

[AgitatedLemon]

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

You see, I have a dream. That dream is that femSheps and manSheps can coexist and have a sexy orgy of respectful gender and racial equality. 

Say you have a white femShep and a black MShep.

Who tops?

They will take turns. Flipping and rolling around wildly. On the couch and on the floor and against the wall. Cause they would be that awesome.

It sounds like they're fighting, instead of... Well.

[Lucky Thirteen]

Trinity Shep wrote...

Well they have made a default FemShep.

I know. I voted for the blonde and was disapointed the red head won.

But I'm not going to complain about it. FemShep is getting attention and is barely breaking into the marketing business with that vote on facebook.

Now, I'm just patiently waiting for that trailer.

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Lucky Thirteen wrote...

You
see, I have a dream. That dream is that femSheps and manSheps can
coexist and have a sexy orgy of respectful gender and racial equality. 

Say you have a white femShep and a black MShep.

Who tops?

They
will take turns. Flipping and rolling around wildly. On the couch and
on the floor and against the wall. Cause they would be that awesome.

It sounds like they're fighting, instead of... Well.

They are fighting aliens together of course! What do you think I was talking about?

Modifié par Lucky Thirteen, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:26 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Advertising campaign doesn't catch on and is neglected by key demographics.

The game, despite it's quality in execution, never catches the notice of the consumer base. It flops.


Edit: Not really bad enough, so...

With the flop of the game, Bioware loses major invester and consumer confidence, even as other studios with less race-centered advertising campaigns launch a number of successes. Bioware sheds its customer base, tries to march into conservative game making, and dwindles as a minor company.

As Bioware falls, the market vacuume is filled by a new, socially reactionary company who is vocally opposed to Bioware's socially liberal characters. Producing games that unapolgetically villify various cultural minority groups and sexualization of women, but are accepted for their otherwise stellar quality and superb writing, Faux (that's the company) goes on to lead a conservative surge across the gaming genres, leading to the rise of a counter-culture of games with authoriatirain overtones, masculine male leads, objectified women, and little sympathy for minority sexual groups.

Ok I asked for the worst. But honestly it's unlikely. More likely, some people will complain, people still buy the game, Bioware earns credit.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:35 .

[nitefyre410]

Xeranx wrote...

So I'm going to ask this question given what I've read on the last few pages:

Does that mean that if someone created a protagonist of color and/or made that protagonist female that it would imply that a certain viewpoint is being forced?

 


No -  I comes down on portayal and what is presented in the story


There Ancha Mama and then there's say Storm, Luke Cage(New Luke Cage .. the old Oh sweet Christmas)  ,Trane, Steel,  Mr. Terrific.   

On has racial over tones and is built of old  ingrained sterotypes  and the others  are  not.

[AlexXIV]

Palidane wrote...

Alex, I got a question for you. Let's say some company has 200 employees, and everyone one of them is a black male. It is not a company where there is a reason for this, like male modelling. Would you still consider this exclusive company to be racist?

Well it always depends where it is and what it is doing. Also I never said it is racist. I just said chances are it is. Which still leaves the option of being an exception. If your company is somewhere where the population is 99% black, then probably not. If it is located in North America or Europe, then I would have to think about it. I mean if they are models they could have specialized on black models. Even though I wouldn't know why that's neccessary. So what would I consider it? I wouldn't be certain but racist background highly likely.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok I asked for the worst. But honestly it's unlikely. More likely, some people will complain, people still buy the game, Bioware earns credit.

Credit that isn't redeemable for money lost.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok I asked for the worst. But honestly it's unlikely. More likely, some people will complain, people still buy the game, Bioware earns credit.

Credit that isn't redeemable for money lost.

Credit can mean positive feedback aka advertisement. And about how much money lost do we talk here? Is there even something like an evidence that they'd lose money? I guess it is an estimate?

[Il Divo]

Xeranx wrote...

So I'm going to ask this question given what I've read on the last few pages:

Does that mean that if someone created a protagonist of color and/or made that protagonist female that it would imply that a certain viewpoint is being forced?

Alot of these things depend on context, but I wouldn't consider it being forced merely by creating a defined protagonist, especially if the characteristics can be changed once we enter the game itself.

With a game like KotOR, developers can get away with showing various portrayals of the main character (and the cinematic trailers do), but that's also because we have a silent protagonist. How do you advertise a silent protagonist in a cinematic trailer? You can't use dialogue to do so which means that you're not really promoting a single character image, which is one huge advantage of voice-acting. But with voice-acting also comes the recognition of a defined protagonist. Shepard is the hero stopping Saren, so a face works better to that end. From a cinematic perspective, I'm not certain how wise it is to portray your main character as male, female, black, white, etc.

Edit: In before the Sacred Ashes trailer is brought up.

Modifié par Il Divo, 05 janvier 2012 - 05:46 .

[Wynne]

Meh. I'm mostly used to the sexism, unfortunately. For once, it doesn't bother me as much because FemShep Trailer. At least the mold is being broken by somebody, for once, finally. I now have hope it will happen again.

On the other hand, I am getting annoyed that we don't have a date. Could we please have one soon? I want to show it to all my female friends. I want to Tweet it. I want to Facebook it. I want to watch it and squee.

I'm tired of watching the ManShep trailers for my ME3 fix. They're cool, but there's so much "he" stuff being thrown around. I'd really like to have that breath of fresh air pretty soon. Or at least a slight whiff of it.

[Bleachrude]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
I don't say that picking a white guy is wrong. In context with other examples thought that they always do it. It is the same as if you are the boss of a company. You hire a new guy, he is white. Racism? Sexism? Problably not, at least there is no evidence of it. Now if you look at the company as a whole and all your employees are white and male? There you got it. It's about, for once, showing that they are not afraid to pick something that is not white and male.

Their last six games:

Jade Empire
Mass Effect 
DA:O
Mass Effect 2
DA2
SW:TOR

Two of these did not feature a prominent protagonist at all in the marketing (DA:O and SW:TOR) and one of them focused on an Asian woman (Jade Empire).

So thats only half of them that heavily feature a white male protagonist in the marketing, and ME2 can be forgiven because it is a direct sequel to ME2, featuring the same character, so of course they were going to keep the same person in the marketing.

So they've shown that they don't always go for the white male in marketing.

And irrespective of the marketing, Bioware is one of the few developers that actually features non-sterotypical characters of virtually every ethnicity within its game. So what if they don't slap them on the posters? The game itself is the important bit, and that is where Bioware shows that it isn't afraid to subvert sterotypes.

While I agree with you with regard to the topic, I tend to disagree about DA:O. DA:O only showed the male warden...From the Sacred Ashes trailer to the other ad campaigns for it, unless you actually played the game, there is no inidcation that you can be any other sex...

[Destroy Raiden_]

Mesina2 wrote...

How's that sexist?

It's not OP and others don't like male, white, soldier mshep that embodies the typical soldier genre so its sexist easy. 

But by PC logic if you don't like male, white, soldier Mshep then you should be sexist, racist, and anti military.  But since its mshep your not because he's all the above and they've deemed its ok to hate or dislike him, but if you don't like female, white, soldier fshep you ARE sexist, racist, and anti military see the difference? Double standards are great that way.

Modifié par Destroy Raiden , 05 janvier 2012 - 06:14 .

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Ok I asked for the worst. But honestly it's unlikely. More likely, some people will complain, people still buy the game, Bioware earns credit.

Credit that isn't redeemable for money lost.

Credit can mean positive feedback aka advertisement.

Except that no one goes about these days praising companies for racially diverse advertising. There's no significant positive feedback to be gained from an advertising campaign for having a non-white trailer character. it's not exceptional.

A campaign that fails to hit to key demographics is, however, but for all the wrong reasons. Such as suggesting future companies to NOT do such advertising strategies.

And about how much money lost do we talk here?

Millions.

Is there even something like an evidence that they'd lose money? I guess it is an estimate?

In this scenario, a flopped advertising game means a flopped product launch. Which means lots of money lost.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In this scenario, a flopped advertising game means a flopped product launch. Which means lots of money lost.

You are still in the worst case scenario. I don't think it would fail to appeal to the main demographic because of it. Actually if it would feature for example maleShep and femShep at the same time, it would probably be intersting to more than just the main demographic. Bioware stated it would be confusing, but honestly, how is only featuring maleShep not confusing?

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In this scenario, a flopped advertising game means a flopped product launch. Which means lots of money lost.

You are still in the worst case scenario.

Well, that's what you asked for.

I don't think it would fail to appeal to the main demographic because of it. Actually if it would feature for example maleShep and femShep at the same time, it would probably be intersting to more than just the main demographic. Bioware stated it would be confusing, but honestly, how is only featuring maleShep not confusing?

Because it's simple and direct.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
In this scenario, a flopped advertising game means a flopped product launch. Which means lots of money lost.

You are still in the worst case scenario.

Well, that's what you asked for.

I don't think it would fail to appeal to the main demographic because of it. Actually if it would feature for example maleShep and femShep at the same time, it would probably be intersting to more than just the main demographic. Bioware stated it would be confusing, but honestly, how is only featuring maleShep not confusing?

Because it's simple and direct.

And wrong. Because Sheploo is only one of many choices.

[Stardusk78]

What an idiotic thread. It is just marketing, not sexism, people need to learn to recognise the difference.