387 réponses à ce sujet

[Ticktank]

He's white. Racist!
He's young. BW hates old people!
He's straight. Once again society is oppressing gay people!
He's human. Animal hater!
He's smart. Liberal agenda!
He doesn't look like my Shepard. BW doesn't listen to fans!

This is stupid.

[Gterror]

Ticktank wrote...

He's white. Racist!
He's young. BW hates old people!
He's straight. Once again society is oppressing gay people!
He's human. Animal hater!
He's smart. Liberal agenda!
He doesn't look like my Shepard. BW doesn't listen to fans!

This is stupid.

[Candidate 88766]

AlexXIV wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

the male version was chosen as the fact from the get go, its called brand recognition

And clearly it doesn't work with a female. Or latino, or asian, or black person. Ah I know, it was coincidence/random. They rolled a dice and it turned out that white male won. Like in DA:O. Like in DA2. Sorry but this threat isn't even about the question if it is racism/sexism. It is about the question if people are ok with it. For this thread I can easily gather that alot (too many imo) are quite fine with it. Surprise, surprise.

Also I really have to say this. There are many troll posts (probably one of two) in this thread, the OP is not one. It's a valid concern. More valid than most others I have seen on this forum. Fact is Bioware promised a femHawke trailer for DA2. It was pushed back until the game was released and we never got one. So about half a year ago (or longer) they said there would be a trailer featuring femShep. That was when ME3 was still supposed to be released in autumn. Now they pushed back the release half a year and still no trailer. And there won't be one. Game will be released once again without Bioware living up to their word.

Now most people here don't care about this trailer, which is why they don't care. But would it be ANYTHING else Bioware promised and didn't deliver the BSN would be on fire. Be it the desired consequences to choices or whatever. Granted, there are more imporant things like this. I am just saying the OP complaint is 100% valid. No matter how many people who are ok with racism and sexism disagree. I mean is it really a surprise that people are not overly bothered by such things if they are part of the majority who isn't affected at all? No, it isn't.

I don't want to start an argument, but why do actually want the FemShep trailer?

You already know that she is going to be in the game, so her presence doesn't need to be advertised.
The choice between male and female is pretty much the first one you make, so awareness of the choice of gender isn't required.
She's not going to replace male Shepard in the main ME3 marketing, so its not going to subvert current marketing trends of having a white male protagonist.

The only reason I can think of is to see what she looks like after the changes they made, but seeing as a lot of people will end up using custom Shepards anyway that doesn't seem very important - a couple of screenshots would do the trick.

Don't get me wrong - it'd be nice to see a trailer of FemShep, but I just don't understand why its such a big deal. 

I don't need a femShep trailer. But basically, my canon is femShep. And the way I see it Bioware is doing everything to make clear that Sheploo is the 'original' or 'canon' or whatever. It's not a big deal, mind you. I play Bioware games and RPGs in general long enough to know how they work. I just hate if someone, a female player, makes (imo) a valid complain and then a bunch of (probably male) trolls jump the thread and call her troll. If I had anything to say this thread would be heavily moderated, as many others in the BSN. These forums are simply too troll-friendly. That's my main concern really. OP had any right to post this, period. And people attacking her because of it (instead of discussing in a civil manner) are trolling.

To fix this Bioware merely need to stop using a certain character to promote their game. They could promote it using companions/squadmates or other NPCs. There is no need for Shep being in any trailers at all (at least not in person, with a face). They could just use the helmet like in the prologue of ME2. For example. But that's not what they doing. If you asked me, they deserve all the heat they get for making wrong choices in advertisement almost all the time. I love Bioware games so I am one of those who blame most of what is going wrong with their franchises (i.e. lower sales than Bethesda) on their marketing, rather than their games as such.

I wasn't attacking the OP - I was just curious as to the reasons behind wanting a FemShep trailer.

I don't think they're trying to show that he is the 'canon' Shepard - they've made it clear many times that they don't believe there is a canon storyline - they just use him as the marketing one.

And while they're marketing isn't great, a story-focused franchise needs to have its protagonist front and centre in the marketing. Shepard is intergal to the story, you can't just take him out of marketing. Unlike most RPGs, Shepard speaks and this needs to be portrayed int he marketing. Shepard isn't a blank slate - advertising ME in such a way would be misleading. You are not just any character, you are Shepard, a character that is at least partially defined beyond your control. The marketing needs to reflect this.

Bioware simply had to make a choice between male and female when it came to the Shepard used for marketing, and unfortunately the sensible choice is a white male protagonist. No one likes to admit it, but it is the choice that will generate the most sales, mostly because advertising for almost everything always seems geared towards the US market and other western markets.

[AlexXIV]

I couldn't disagree more. One of the big points that makes Bioware games special is that you can choose your protagonist. Is he male, is she female? Is he/she black, asian, white, latino? That's what they are not transporting by their advertisement. I know many people learn about it long after release. If someone looks the trailer, how are they supposed to know that they can have a choice? How are they supposed to know that the character displayed is not the only one they can play?

They can use the voice of Shepard, both actually, the female and male. In turns. Put in some lines of maleShep and femShep, but never show them in person. Make it a myth what Shep looks like. Because it is not canon, it is not decided. The player decides. They are hiding one of their main features because some idiot in their marketing thinks they need a face to be recognized. That's bull. It would work just as well if not better if Shepard never shows in person in a trailer. Just take the launch trailer. They talk about Shep most of the time. They don't need to show, talking is enough. People will be curious about Shep instead of getting Sheploo the Model with some cheesy lines. Totally breaks the trailer imo.

I wouldn't even know why Bioware always seem to advertise something different than they are doing. Are they so uncertain of their work, or think they have something to hide or claim to make people buy it? Imo their games are good enough to advertise them as exactly what they are about.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 janvier 2012 - 12:22 .

[Gotholhorakh]

nitefyre410 wrote...

but there is always breathing mask  some can complain about...


I
do see you're point -  what is frustracting at times is that most don't
even want to have the conversation. As soon any of the ism are brought 
in the picture.   We as gamers and almost any for that matter - get
defensive.

Well of course they do. It's just like religious nuts - when people feel they are constantly, endlessly being moralised with and told off when they haven't set out to hurt anyone in any way, or done anything wrong, they'll have defensive reactions.

They'll ignore it. They'll agree and say anything to shut their "moral superiors" up. They'll mock it and make light of it and eventually, if you just keep on for long enough at them, like it won't leave them alone and they can't do anything right, it's possible they'll become hostile and antagonistic towards you and your philosophy.

Creating that perception in people ends up completely counter-productive, because perfectly nice people run screaming from the (possibly good and beneficial) message you would like them to take on board.

Sorry, I digress - but I've seen this in heavily religious/political situations a few times, and I recognise exactly the same behaviours in people's reaction to PCness on this forum and elsewhere

AlexXIV wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Sorry but this threat isn't even about the question if it is racism/sexism. It is about the question if people are ok with it. For this thread I can easily gather that alot (too many imo) are quite fine with it. Surprise, surprise.

"Surprise, surprise" sounds clever, It isn't rubbish because the BioWare forums and community are such a hotbed of sexism and racism. It's an orgy of discrimination and intolerance around here, yessirree.

AlexXIV wrote:
Now most people here don't care about this trailer, which is why they don't care. But would it be ANYTHING else Bioware promised and didn't deliver the BSN would be on fire.

...but be fair now, the thread didn't jump in with "BioWare broke a promise". The OP's message was "The Trailer is Sexist"  with a slight addition of "I found the male-only trailers boring".

Not "Are you OK with sexism and racism?". It ddn't ask this.

Not "BioWare broke a promise, do you care?". It didn't mention this.

Judging/gauging the intent behind people's responses after retrospectively changing what the OP said is impossible, right? RIGHT?

The topic may be badly chosen. But I assume people did read the OP. Maybe I assume wrong.

Are you sure? Because it looked quite a lot like yo were assuming the opposite, that was kind of my point.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 05 janvier 2012 - 12:26 .

[AlexXIV]

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Are you sure? Because it looked quite a lot like yo were assuming the opposite, that was kind of my point.

It looked like I was assuming what?

[SinnSly]

dcwarnow wrote...

One thing I have discovered, is that I dislike how the only Shepherd shown in the trailers is the male version.

Before you start complaining, I understand that they had to pick one style of Shepherd to show for cohesion's sake. I get it. And it is not that I am not familiar with it; my boyfriend has played it many times, so I can recognize the male voice as being from the game. Also, I realize that if developers tried to do a trailer for every character version, then there would be thousands of trailers to watch. But in this case, they only have two voice choices: male or female. Why not showcase both of them?

When I played ME1, I got used to that Shepherd's voice. Having recently finished ME2, and after applauding the fact that they got the original voice actress to do the voice again, I eagerly began looking up trailers for the next one. However, I found myself bored during them. And they're talking about how the reapers are HERE, so I should be totally stoked! But there is something about not being able to at least hear the Shepherd that I have grown to care about.

That may just be me being picky. Does anyone else wish they would release at least one trailer with the opposite sex's voice?

I hate the trailers to be honest, I jsut want females to take over for good at least once, I mean FemShep and FemHawke are way better than the males in looks (especially Hawke) and voice!!!

I couldn't agree with you more dude :3

[Palidane]

AlexXIV wrote...

I couldn't disagree more. One of the big points that makes Bioware games special is that you can choose your protagonist. Is he male, is she female? Is he/she black, asian, white, latino? That's what they are not transporting by their advertisement. I know many people learn about it long after release. If someone looks the trailer, how are they supposed to know that they can have a choice? How are they supposed to know that the character displayed is not the only one they can play?

They can use the voice of Shepard, both actually, the female and male. In turns. Put in some lines of maleShep and femShep, but never show them in person. Make it a myth what Shep looks like. Because it is not canon, it is not decided. The player decides. They are hiding one of their main features because some idiot in their marketing thinks they need a face to be recognized. That's bull. It would work just as well if not better if Shepard never shows in person in a trailer. Just take the launch trailer. They talk about Shep most of the time. They don't need to show, talking is enough. People will be curious about Shep instead of getting Sheploo the Model with some cheesy lines. Totally breaks the trailer imo.

I wouldn't even know why Bioware always seem to advertise something different than they are doing. Are they so uncertain of their work, or think they have something to hide or claim to make people buy it? Imo their games are good enough to advertise them as exactly what they are about.

Ok, this is starting to descend into "Why won't Bioware cater to my every need?". Did you get a college degree in marketing? There is a whole team at Bioware that did, and I wouldn't presume you know what sells better than they do.

Truth time: The main demographic for this game is western college age white males. And statistics show that almost everybody associates better with someone like them. Ergo, Shepard is a white male. How is this sexist in any way? Is it sexist that more white males buy this game than anyone else? Is it sexist that EA wants to make money?

[Gotholhorakh]

AlexXIV wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
Are you sure? Because it looked quite a lot like yo were assuming the opposite, that was kind of my point.

It looked like I was assuming what?

Here:

Gotholhorakh wrote...
...but be fair now, the thread didn't jump in with "BioWare broke a promise". The OP's message was "The Trailer is Sexist"  with a slight addition of "I found the male-only trailers boring".

Not "Are you OK with sexism and racism?". It ddn't ask this.

Not "BioWare broke a promise, do you care?". It didn't mention this.

Judging/gauging
the intent behind people's responses after retrospectively changing
what the OP said is impossible, right? RIGHT?

That.

Palidane wrote...

Ok, this is starting to descend into "Why
won't Bioware cater to my every need?". Did you get a college degree in
marketing? There is a whole team at Bioware that did, and I wouldn't
presume you know what sells better than they do.

Truth time: The
main demographic for this game is western college age white males. And
statistics show that almost everybody associates better with someone
like them. Ergo, Shepard is a white male. How is this sexist in any way?
Is it sexist that more white males buy this game than anyone else? Is
it sexist that EA wants to make money?

I don't see it as a problem for people to ask for their needs to be catered to - that's what we all do ultimately and is part of the relationship between us and BioWare. I don't think they have generally got a massive problem catering to the needs of people in just that way anyway.

I don't even see a philosophical problem with someone saying "this has nobody like me in it, I find it boring" because after all, that's the kind of stuff you need to hear about, and tally up from people if you want to sell them what they like and want.

I think the core point you make, which is a sound one a number of people have made, is that people make decisions about adverts on the basis of what they think will make money, be that through brand identity, demographics, looking good or whatever, and that the notion BioWare is on some mission to make trailers that are "sexist" is ludicrous.

Not least because we know BioWare and they do endeavour to be egalitarian and cater to people's need sensitively.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 05 janvier 2012 - 12:40 .

[Last Vizard]

Honestly.... this is why lawyers make so much money, everything is "sexist" or "racist" why wouldn't you say poor marketing or something instead of saying "sexist" like theres a couple of guys making the trailers laughing saying "women don't deserve a female lead character trailer"...

most gamers are guys that play action games, thats why ME2 was a 3rd person gears version of RPG and why ME3 will focus even more on action... its not sexist, they're just marketing to the majority of consumers.

News flash, males and females are different psychologically/phsyically and all manner of scientific studies have shown this, even the ones where they were intentionally trying to make boys act like girls and guess what? it didn't bloody work because men are hunters and women are gatherers genetically.

In some (Australia) cases women have more rights/benifits than men in the workplace and divorce settlements, anyway everyone is equal in the west, "doesn't matter if you're brown, black, yellow or normal". lol

Modifié par Last Vizard, 05 janvier 2012 - 12:53 .

[AlexXIV]

Palidane wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

I couldn't disagree more. One of the big points that makes Bioware games special is that you can choose your protagonist. Is he male, is she female? Is he/she black, asian, white, latino? That's what they are not transporting by their advertisement. I know many people learn about it long after release. If someone looks the trailer, how are they supposed to know that they can have a choice? How are they supposed to know that the character displayed is not the only one they can play?

They can use the voice of Shepard, both actually, the female and male. In turns. Put in some lines of maleShep and femShep, but never show them in person. Make it a myth what Shep looks like. Because it is not canon, it is not decided. The player decides. They are hiding one of their main features because some idiot in their marketing thinks they need a face to be recognized. That's bull. It would work just as well if not better if Shepard never shows in person in a trailer. Just take the launch trailer. They talk about Shep most of the time. They don't need to show, talking is enough. People will be curious about Shep instead of getting Sheploo the Model with some cheesy lines. Totally breaks the trailer imo.

I wouldn't even know why Bioware always seem to advertise something different than they are doing. Are they so uncertain of their work, or think they have something to hide or claim to make people buy it? Imo their games are good enough to advertise them as exactly what they are about.

Ok, this is starting to descend into "Why won't Bioware cater to my every need?". Did you get a college degree in marketing? There is a whole team at Bioware that did, and I wouldn't presume you know what sells better than they do.

Truth time: The main demographic for this game is western college age white males. And statistics show that almost everybody associates better with someone like them. Ergo, Shepard is a white male. How is this sexist in any way? Is it sexist that more white males buy this game than anyone else? Is it sexist that EA wants to make money?

I don't need a college degree to make better choices. That's the sad thing about it. Bethesda do it differently. Or what is the face of Skyrim? Or Oblivion? Or Morrowind? They have no model to pose for them and still sell better. There it is about the world, they should just promote the world and leave the main character open. And it works well enough. Bioware already admitted they are looking at Bethesda. Why not look at their marketing too?

It's not sexist that Shepard is male white, if you don't see it in context with DA:O/DA2. They even advertised Dragon Age saying 'the world is the main character'. But who is the main character in the trailers? 2 male white guys. See what I mean? It's not the case of 'one male white person getting the job'. It is a matter of 'only male white persons getting the job'. It's getting racist/sexist not because of one person. It's getting it because it's an exclusive.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 janvier 2012 - 12:57 .

[NegativelyChrgd]

Pointing fingers and playing the "sexism" card on the trailer which is really a insult to Bioware's character says more about the OP imo. BW can be criticized for several things but sexism, no. About what another poster said, "Sheploo" has been the poster Shepard since the first game so we shouldn't be too suprised if they don't get around to creating the female analog before release.(Just around the corner!) They did conduct that default female shepard community vote though which was pretty good. The fact that you can play as a female is in the actual game which is great for all female gamers, and the males that are also inclined. We shouldn't get so worked up over the trailers though... If they didn't do female shepard in ME3 the game then we would have something to worry about!

[AlexXIV]

Gotholhorakh wrote...
...but be fair now, the thread didn't jump in with "BioWare broke a promise". The OP's message was "The Trailer is Sexist"  with a slight addition of "I found the male-only trailers boring".

Not "Are you OK with sexism and racism?". It ddn't ask this.

Not "BioWare broke a promise, do you care?". It didn't mention this.

Judging/gauging
the intent behind people's responses after retrospectively changing
what the OP said is impossible, right? RIGHT?

That.

I still don't see what you are trying to say. There are reasons why things are like they are. They are many and probably complicated. The point is, racism/sexism doesn't start when people walk through the street with torches intending to burn or hang other people. It starts with little things. Bioware is a company big and influentual enough to know and take responsibility. They are not only making games, they are also influencing (young) people's minds.

[nitefyre410]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

nitefyre410 wrote...

but there is always breathing mask  some can complain about...


I do see you're point -  what is frustracting at times is that most don't
even want to have the conversation. As soon any of the ism are brought 
in the picture.   We as gamers and almost any for that matter - get
defensive.

Well of course they do. It's just like religious nuts - when people feel they are constantly, endlessly being moralised with and told off when they haven't set out to hurt anyone in any way, or done anything wrong, they'll have defensive reactions.

They'll ignore it. They'll agree and say anything to shut their "moral superiors" up. They'll mock it and make light of it and eventually, if you just keep on for long enough at them, like it won't leave them alone and they can't do anything right, it's possible they'll become hostile and antagonistic towards you and your philosophy.

Creating that perception in people ends up completely counter-productive, because perfectly nice people run screaming from the (possibly good and beneficial) message you would like them to take on board.

Sorry, I digress - but I've seen this in heavily religious/political situations a few times, and I recognise exactly the same behaviours in people's reaction to PCness on this forum and elsewhere

Right exactly which is one of the  major why the disscusion can't take place to start.  Too many people are getting brow beaten with it... or to quote  "I'm tired of being made to feel  I'm  sexist pig just because I attractive women."    Ex.  Ashley's new hair style... has the character changed? nope still the same Ashely. Still the same  Ashley  and here comes the brow beating.  What makes it every worst is the gaming journalism(HA ... what joke right?)  take this and use it a means to get site traffic it up.  

What the real question the OP is asking is that  should video game protagantist portray a wider demo-graphic of characters?   that would be a resounding yes.

[Gotholhorakh]

AlexXIV wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...
...but be fair now, the thread didn't jump in with "BioWare broke a promise". The OP's message was "The Trailer is Sexist"  with a slight addition of "I found the male-only trailers boring".

Not "Are you OK with sexism and racism?". It ddn't ask this.

Not "BioWare broke a promise, do you care?". It didn't mention this.

Judging/gauging
the intent behind people's responses after retrospectively changing
what the OP said is impossible, right? RIGHT?

That.

I still don't see what you are trying to say. There are reasons why things are like they are. They are many and probably complicated. The point is, racism/sexism doesn't start when people walk through the street with torches intending to burn or hang other people. It starts with little things. Bioware is a company big and influentual enough to know and take responsibility. They are not only making games, they are also influencing (young) people's minds.

I think I made it quite clear. You issued what was effectively a moral rebuke for people's responses (in general) to the two points quoted above, when nobody was responding to either of them because they weren't in the topic or the OP.

[Dean_the_Young]

]I love progress.

In the old days, racism and sexism was casting one group as superior and the other group inferior in ability, virtue, and worthiness. People were lynched, people understood what miscegenation meant and why it was supposedly undesirable, and opportunities and prospects for advancement were actively suppressed.

Now adays, people who don't know better think that racism or sexism is not using a minority demographic for your advertising.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2012 - 01:07 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]I love progress.

In the old days, racism and sexism was casting one group as superior and the other group inferior in ability, virtue, and worthiness. People were lynched, people understood what miscegenation meant and why it was supposedly undesirable, and opportunities and prospects for advancement were actively suppressed.

Now adays, people who don't know better think that racism or sexism is not using a minority demographic for your advertising.

I don't think that. But I can see patterns. Simply said, Bioware could have done better. They chose not to. And the sad thing really is that they didn't do better because they could not. They didn't want to.

[Last Vizard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]I love progress.

In the old days, racism and sexism was casting one group as superior and the other group inferior in ability, virtue, and worthiness. People were lynched, people understood what miscegenation meant and why it was supposedly undesirable, and opportunities and prospects for advancement were actively suppressed.

Now adays, people who don't know better think that racism or sexism is not using a minority demographic for your advertising.

lol Well said.

[nitefyre410]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]I love progress.

In the old days, racism and sexism was casting one group as superior and the other group inferior in ability, virtue, and worthiness. People were lynched, people understood what miscegenation meant and why it was supposedly undesirable, and opportunities and prospects for advancement were actively suppressed.

Now adays, people who don't know better think that racism or sexism is not using a minority demographic for your advertising.

 

^  Exactly  

[Dean_the_Young]

Using a minority group of your demographic market that you are appealing to is not intrinsically 'better.'

Alex, your pattern of motivations is a projection of your own lack of perspective onto Bioware.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2012 - 01:14 .

[Last Vizard]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]I love progress.

In the old days, racism and sexism was casting one group as superior and the other group inferior in ability, virtue, and worthiness. People were lynched, people understood what miscegenation meant and why it was supposedly undesirable, and opportunities and prospects for advancement were actively suppressed.

Now adays, people who don't know better think that racism or sexism is not using a minority demographic for your advertising.

I don't think that. But I can see patterns. Simply said, Bioware could have done better. They chose not to. And the sad thing really is that they didn't do better because they could not. They didn't want to.

They didn't want to because spending extra money on more trailers is not something you want to do if you like money.... wait there moneyist!

[Fiery Phoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]I love progress.

In the old days, racism and sexism was casting one group as superior and the other group inferior in ability, virtue, and worthiness. People were lynched, people understood what miscegenation meant and why it was supposedly undesirable, and opportunities and prospects for advancement were actively suppressed.

Now adays, people who don't know better think that racism or sexism is not using a minority demographic for your advertising.

:lol: Dean wins this thread!

[AlexXIV]

Last Vizard wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]I love progress.

In the old days, racism and sexism was casting one group as superior and the other group inferior in ability, virtue, and worthiness. People were lynched, people understood what miscegenation meant and why it was supposedly undesirable, and opportunities and prospects for advancement were actively suppressed.

Now adays, people who don't know better think that racism or sexism is not using a minority demographic for your advertising.

I don't think that. But I can see patterns. Simply said, Bioware could have done better. They chose not to. And the sad thing really is that they didn't do better because they could not. They didn't want to.

They didn't want to because spending extra money on more trailers is not something you want to do if you like money.... wait there moneyist!

They don't need to put in extra money if they do it right from start.

[Dean_the_Young]

Picking a minority for your advertising for the sake of a minority isn't right, it's actively immoral.

[robarcool]

Looks at join date, sees inherent troll, moves on.

Modifié par robarcool, 05 janvier 2012 - 01:20 .