387 réponses à ce sujet

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Using a minority group of your demographic market that you are appealing to is not intrinsically 'better.'

Alex, your pattern of motivations is a projection of your own lack of perspective onto Bioware.

And my perspective is wrong because I think racism and sexism still exists? And that I think a company like Bioware does have responsibility and duty to do their part helping to fix it? I don't even ask for them appealing to a minority. Just that they appeal to their 'main demographic' a bit less obvious. Like other games do too, so it is not something 'impossible' to do, no?

Thing is I think people are only asking themselves 'Am I a racist/sexist?'. Then they answer it with no and are happy with themselves. Instead, for example, asking themselves 'have I done enough to make the world less racist/sexist'. Mind you this topic is probably too big for the BSN and probably too big for Bioware or ME.

[Last Vizard]

AlexXIV wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]I love progress.

In the old days, racism and sexism was casting one group as superior and the other group inferior in ability, virtue, and worthiness. People were lynched, people understood what miscegenation meant and why it was supposedly undesirable, and opportunities and prospects for advancement were actively suppressed.

Now adays, people who don't know better think that racism or sexism is not using a minority demographic for your advertising.

I don't think that. But I can see patterns. Simply said, Bioware could have done better. They chose not to. And the sad thing really is that they didn't do better because they could not. They didn't want to.

They didn't want to because spending extra money on more trailers is not something you want to do if you like money.... wait there moneyist!

They don't need to put in extra money if they do it right from start.

It isn't wrong though, a superfriends montage of Sheps in every shape, size and colour, every gender (even the gender that doesnt know what gender it is) would be overdoing it.  When you see the trailers for sports games most of the time the main group shown are black.... what does that tell you?

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Picking a minority for your advertising for the sake of a minority isn't right, it's actively immoral.

And picking a majority for your advertising for the sake of a majority is right and moral? Because, you know, there is the choice to not show the protagonist in the trailer at all. You missed that, right?

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Using a minority group of your demographic market that you are appealing to is not intrinsically 'better.'

Alex, your pattern of motivations is a projection of your own lack of perspective onto Bioware.

And my perspective is wrong because I think racism and sexism still exists?

Not because of that.

And that I think a company like Bioware does have responsibility and duty to do their part helping to fix it?

That is a part of your problem.

 I don't even ask for them appealing to a minority. Just that they appeal to their 'main demographic' a bit less obvious. Like other games do too, so it is not something 'impossible' to do, no?

Given that Bioware as a matter of course includes many non-white male characters of note who have become respected and memorable characters, and many white male characters who distinctly invalidate any presumptions of white male virtue, your lack of perspective is in not seeing what they already do.

Thing is I think people are only asking themselves 'Am I a racist/sexist?'. Then they answer it with no and are happy with themselves. Instead, for example, asking themselves 'have I done enough to make the world less racist/sexist'. Mind you this topic is probably too big for the BSN and probably too big for Bioware or ME.

Your problem is that you don't understand racism, or sexism, and how they are applied in practice.

[AlexXIV]

Last Vizard wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]I love progress.

In the old days, racism and sexism was casting one group as superior and the other group inferior in ability, virtue, and worthiness. People were lynched, people understood what miscegenation meant and why it was supposedly undesirable, and opportunities and prospects for advancement were actively suppressed.

Now adays, people who don't know better think that racism or sexism is not using a minority demographic for your advertising.

I don't think that. But I can see patterns. Simply said, Bioware could have done better. They chose not to. And the sad thing really is that they didn't do better because they could not. They didn't want to.

They didn't want to because spending extra money on more trailers is not something you want to do if you like money.... wait there moneyist!

They don't need to put in extra money if they do it right from start.

It isn't wrong though, a superfriends montage of Sheps in every shape, size and colour, every gender (even the gender that doesnt know what gender it is) would be overdoing it.  When you see the trailers for sports games most of the time the main group shown are black.... what does that tell you?

Tbh I don't play sports games. And since Bioware isn't making them, what's the point. It may be true what you say or it may not, I can't say anything about it.

[didymos1120]

robarcool wrote...

Looks at join date, sees inherent troll, moves on.

Ugh. This is like BSN's homegrown little logical fallacy.  Join date is meaningless.  I have a dream that one day a person will be judged not by the date of their joining, but by the content of their posts!  Don't much care about trailers though, I have to say. 

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Your problem is that you don't understand racism, or sexism, and how they are applied in practice.

Well enlighten me then. I only grew up as a foreigner in the country I live, so what would I know about it?

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Picking a minority for your advertising for the sake of a minority isn't right, it's actively immoral.

And picking a majority for your advertising for the sake of a majority is right and moral?

Actually, it is. The moral obligation of those who make the advertising for a product is to maximize appeal for the target demographic: otherwise they're wasting money that isn't theirs in inferior pursuits and hurting the interests of those who fund and support the company, ie the owners and shareholders.

Bioware's main consumer demographic is white males.

Because, you know, there is the choice to not show the protagonist in the trailer at all. You missed that, right?

Those advertisements without a central figure generally fail in regards to character-centric games, which Bioware has a marked interest in promoting.

Deliberatly inferior advertising is a economic and moral failure on the part of those who make it.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2012 - 01:36 .

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Picking a minority for your advertising for the sake of a minority isn't right, it's actively immoral.

And picking a majority for your advertising for the sake of a majority is right and moral?

Actually, it is. The moral obligation of those who make the advertising for a product is to maximize appeal for the target demographic: otherwise they're wasting money that isn't theirs in inferior pursuits and hurting the interests of those who fund and support the company, ie the owners and shareholders.

Bioware's main consumer demographic is white males.

Because, you know, there is the choice to not show the protagonist in the trailer at all. You missed that, right?

Those advertisements without a central figure generally fail in regards to character-centric games, which Bioware has a marked interest in promoting.

Deliberatly inferior advertising is a economic and moral failure on the part of those who make it.

Bethesda proves otherwise.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Your problem is that you don't understand racism, or sexism, and how they are applied in practice.

Well enlighten me then. I only grew up as a foreigner in the country I live, so what would I know about it?

Why should that matter? You can learn about Bioware's audience demographics, various theories of business ethics, and the history and practices of racism from the comfort of any computer with an internet connection.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Bethesda proves otherwise.

Not really. What you think it disproves isn't actually what you're arguing against.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 05 janvier 2012 - 01:41 .

[deathshdw]

Abraham_uk wrote...

snip

Here is what I would describe as sexist.

If every single female character was a useless damsel in distress and a solely a sex object and nothing else. If all the female characters whined all the time, made angry comments about the bold knights that saved them, then betrayed the knights out of spite of being saved. Then got captured for the 5th time in the game. The bold hero has to save the damsell again! Then she suddenly warms to him, melts and makes love, but still remains consistent by making stupid remarks and not having a clue what is going on.

:blink:Why does this sound like the plot for both Mario and Legend of Zelda?

[Last Vizard]

AlexXIV wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

]I love progress.

In the old days, racism and sexism was casting one group as superior and the other group inferior in ability, virtue, and worthiness. People were lynched, people understood what miscegenation meant and why it was supposedly undesirable, and opportunities and prospects for advancement were actively suppressed.

Now adays, people who don't know better think that racism or sexism is not using a minority demographic for your advertising.

I don't think that. But I can see patterns. Simply said, Bioware could have done better. They chose not to. And the sad thing really is that they didn't do better because they could not. They didn't want to.

They didn't want to because spending extra money on more trailers is not something you want to do if you like money.... wait there moneyist!

They don't need to put in extra money if they do it right from start.

It isn't wrong though, a superfriends montage of Sheps in every shape, size and colour, every gender (even the gender that doesnt know what gender it is) would be overdoing it.  When you see the trailers for sports games most of the time the main group shown are black.... what does that tell you?

Tbh I don't play sports games. And since Bioware isn't making them, what's the point. It may be true what you say or it may not, I can't say anything about it.

BW or EA pretty much the same thing, my point is that it means nothing... racism/sexism isn't an issue anymore and until everyone has a tea spoon of cement and stops projecting their own fears/views such as sexism and racism onto others we'll be just fine.

BW is neutral, they just make games so maybe your the one thats racist?

[nitefyre410]

Okay can someone answers this questions ... how does putting a Female Shepard on the cover change anything when she is nothing more than re-skin and re-voice Male Shepard? Neither are characters the voiced avatars of the player - they have no personality, no hopes, fears, faults, strengths other than what we the players. They empty shells and can't be portrayed as anything because there is nothing there to be portray.

Female Shepard can neither a be positive portrayal or negative portray of a female character because there is no character.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Your problem is that you don't understand racism, or sexism, and how they are applied in practice.

Well enlighten me then. I only grew up as a foreigner in the country I live, so what would I know about it?

Why should that matter? You can learn about Bioware's audience demographics, various theories of business ethics, and the history and practices of racism from the comfort of any computer with an internet connection.

So how they apply in practice you learned from the internet? Congrats.

[nitefyre410]

deathshdw wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

snip

Here is what I would describe as sexist.

If every single female character was a useless damsel in distress and a solely a sex object and nothing else. If all the female characters whined all the time, made angry comments about the bold knights that saved them, then betrayed the knights out of spite of being saved. Then got captured for the 5th time in the game. The bold hero has to save the damsell again! Then she suddenly warms to him, melts and makes love, but still remains consistent by making stupid remarks and not having a clue what is going on.

:blink:Why does this sound like the plot for both Mario and Legend of Zelda?

 

Oh how many times has Peach been kidnapped by Bowser now sense the  80's ?
 the Princess Peach game on DS  ..flips all that on its head... and let not forget  Smash Brothes ...I have friends that makes  Peach a force to be rekoned with ...

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Bethesda proves otherwise.

Not really. What you think it disproves isn't actually what you're arguing against.

I am not argueing against something as much as for something. What disturbs me most is Sheploo. Whether he is male or female or what race is almost secondary to the fact that we are to make our own hero and Bioware advertises one specifically which is then mostly refered to in any wallpaper/sscreen etc. I can't even have an ME/ME2 background on this forum without stupid Sheploo's face. They could just keep Shep's face conceiled. Would it be so hard? It's not appealing to me personaly and I bet neither to many others. The idea that you need a 'face' for your franchise is indeed disproven by Bethesda because they don't need one and are more successful. There may be other reasons for their success, but hell, the fact their marketing seems to not need a 'face' makes is pretty clear that whoever thinks this kind of thing is imporant is obviously wrong.

[Gotholhorakh]

AlexXIV wrote...
Thing is I think people are only asking themselves 'Am I a racist/sexist?'. Then they answer it with no and are happy with themselves. Instead, for example, asking themselves 'have I done enough to make the world less racist/sexist'..

Out of interest, what is inherently wrong with that?

I just can't envisage a world in which people doing their jobs (like marketing, for instance) or going about their lives, stop, look at their finished product or forum post and think "Hrm, have I done enough to make the world less racist/sexist?".

I think all sorts of things are hugely, massively important, I don't have it in my head that other people with their own lives, priorities, kids to feed etc. would be on a lifetime mission about them... it would be nice and all but forgive me, it seems a little... megalomaniacal to me.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 05 janvier 2012 - 02:03 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Last Vizard wrote...

BW or EA pretty much the same thing, my point is that it means nothing... racism/sexism isn't an issue anymore and until everyone has a tea spoon of cement and stops projecting their own fears/views such as sexism and racism onto others we'll be just fine.

BW is neutral, they just make games so maybe your the one thats racist?

I'd disagree on one particular thing: racism/sexism is an issue... but it's no longer the issue it once was, and not all decisions can be villified by it.


Let's take a case in point: the Fem Shep. Bioware ran an actual open contest for players and fans to decide who would become the official Fem Shep. They included various races, colors, and much variation. What did fans vote for most? A white woman. Bioware held open the door for the public, and that was what their fanbase voted on.

A minority for minority's sake is a strategy that companies can pursue, but it is not a duty or an obligation to. To not promote an affirmative action policy is not the same as to be exclusionary.

Bioware has consistently held open the door in its character creators for people to make whatever gender, and whatever color of protagonist they want. If mostp people settle with a white Shepard, that is because they choose to do so: nothing more, nothing less. Bioware even made Jade Empire, which should stand for itself in any argument about racism and Bioware. Choosing your gender, choosing your race: these have long been staples of Bioware games.

Bioware has never been sympathetic in its stories to racists or racial theories even in the games it has included such, and has routinely villified them. Socially progressive, liberal characters and themes have routinely been treated much more sympathetically, and are far more prevalent. Bioware actually struggles to cast racist and/or authoritarian characters as anything but significantly antagonistic.

Bioware has repeatedly pushed the envelope of socially acceptable content, to much criticism. It has helped bring bisexual and even homosexul romances and characters into an emerging mainstream of characters.


There are certainly many game makers who can deserve to be accused of racism and socially reactionary games and practices. Bioware is not one of them.

[Dean_the_Young]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Your problem is that you don't understand racism, or sexism, and how they are applied in practice.

Well enlighten me then. I only grew up as a foreigner in the country I live, so what would I know about it?

Why should that matter? You can learn about Bioware's audience demographics, various theories of business ethics, and the history and practices of racism from the comfort of any computer with an internet connection.

So how they apply in practice you learned from the internet? Congrats.

Did I say that? No, it doesn't look like I did.

[Gotholhorakh]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Bioware has never been sympathetic in its stories to racists or racial theories even in the games it has included such, and has routinely villified them. Socially progressive, liberal characters and themes have routinely been treated much more sympathetically, and are far more prevalent. Bioware actually struggles to cast racist and/or authoritarian characters as anything but significantly antagonistic.

Bioware has repeatedly pushed the envelope of socially acceptable content, to much criticism. It has helped bring bisexual and even homosexul romances and characters into an emerging mainstream of characters.

There are certainly many game makers who can deserve to be accused of racism and socially reactionary games and practices. Bioware is not one of them.

Agreed! This is the thing that strikes me as the most ridiculous, BioWare is for sure the most PC maker of RPG games around, and we all know it.

I'd go so far as to say anyone who pretends otherwise is being... wilful.

[AlexXIV]

Gotholhorakh wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...
Thing is I think people are only asking themselves 'Am I a racist/sexist?'. Then they answer it with no and are happy with themselves. Instead, for example, asking themselves 'have I done enough to make the world less racist/sexist'..

Out of interest, what is inherently wrong with that?

I just can't envisage a world in which people doing their jobs (like marketing, for instance) or going about their business, stop, look at their finished product or forum post and think "Hrm, have I done enough to make the world less racist/sexist?".

I think all sorts of things are hugely, massively important, I don't have it in my head that other people with their own lives, priorities, kids to feed etc. would be on a lifetime mission about them... it would be nice and all but forgive me, it seems a little... megalomaniacal to me.

If I'd asked Bioware to change the world it would be asked too much. But doing their part probably without any costs and a chance to even be more successful? Doubt it. They only need to TRY to make ONE trailer in 5 games so far (since DA:O) without showing the male protagonist. Asked too much you say? Then we have to disagree.

Also this whole 'main demographic' is a bit about racism/sexism. I mean you imply that male white gamers don't buy a game because the protagonist has a tan skin. How many people out there look like Sheploo? Probably as much as look like the new femShep. Next to none. Because if I looked like that I would not play video games but instead have a new girl every week. So people can connect to a hero that looks much better than themselves but not to one who has a darker skin or is of opposite sex? Even if they have 99% the same lines in the game? Only difference are the LIs tbh. If that's not a racist/sexist line of thought then I don't know one.

[nitefyre410]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...

BW or EA pretty much the same thing, my point is that it means nothing... racism/sexism isn't an issue anymore and until everyone has a tea spoon of cement and stops projecting their own fears/views such as sexism and racism onto others we'll be just fine.

BW is neutral, they just make games so maybe your the one thats racist?

I'd disagree on one particular thing: racism/sexism is an issue... but it's no longer the issue it once was, and not all decisions can be villified by it.


Let's take a case in point: the Fem Shep. Bioware ran an actual open contest for players and fans to decide who would become the official Fem Shep. They included various races, colors, and much variation. What did fans vote for most? A white woman. Bioware held open the door for the public, and that was what their fanbase voted on.

A minority for minority's sake is a strategy that companies can pursue, but it is not a duty or an obligation to. To not promote an affirmative action policy is not the same as to be exclusionary.

Bioware has consistently held open the door in its character creators for people to make whatever gender, and whatever color of protagonist they want. If mostp people settle with a white Shepard, that is because they choose to do so: nothing more, nothing less. Bioware even made Jade Empire, which should stand for itself in any argument about racism and Bioware. Choosing your gender, choosing your race: these have long been staples of Bioware games.

Bioware has never been sympathetic in its stories to racists or racial theories even in the games it has included such, and has routinely villified them. Socially progressive, liberal characters and themes have routinely been treated much more sympathetically, and are far more prevalent. Bioware actually struggles to cast racist and/or authoritarian characters as anything but significantly antagonistic.

Bioware has repeatedly pushed the envelope of socially acceptable content, to much criticism. It has helped bring bisexual and even homosexul romances and characters into an emerging mainstream of characters.


There are certainly many game makers who can deserve to be accused of racism and socially reactionary games and practices. Bioware is not one of them.

This should be preface by a picture of Dean  going " Chill out guys ... I got this."

And you asolutely right ... like how people like shove   that CJ  from GTA : San Andera's is the premire example of  leading Black  male Protagnist.

[AlexXIV]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Your problem is that you don't understand racism, or sexism, and how they are applied in practice.

Well enlighten me then. I only grew up as a foreigner in the country I live, so what would I know about it?

Why should that matter? You can learn about Bioware's audience demographics, various theories of business ethics, and the history and practices of racism from the comfort of any computer with an internet connection.

So how they apply in practice you learned from the internet? Congrats.

Did I say that? No, it doesn't look like I did.

Well you implied I didn't understand it. So I assume you do? Or did you just say that because you felt the need to say something?