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The VS romance arc: an analysis

Débuté par Tropulous , janv. 05 2012 02:50

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#26
Mims
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 02:43

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/salute

While not a VS romancer myself, I always thought the setup for ME3 would be a good one. Probably in retrospect I would have included a few more lines about Kaidan/Ashley in ME2 [particularly in regards to things like Liara's LOTSB conversation], but otherwise I think the payoff will be great.

My little brother has been loyal to Ashley since the first game. I don't think he's even romanced another character or looked at another character, which I find hella adorable.

#27
CptData
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 03:28

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Now I read the full essay (including spoilers) and I like the way the OP is thinking.

Again: Kudos. Well done.

#28
Negam
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 05:00

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After reading this essay, all I can do is give props to you, OP: great work!

#29
kromify
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 05:22

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fantastic read! really good work.

i bought ME2 before ME, so I don't have the same attachment to the VS as some. playing through the first game i'm usually thinking "next i get to romance thane!" i never feel like i'm cheating on ash or kaidan because i always knew what would happen. it's good to have the other side of the coin presented so well :-)

#30
Wrathra
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 05:25

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Thank you for this

10/10

#31
Ryzaki
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 05:27

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This was an excellent read.

Though my eye twitched at the "cheating". It's not. It never will be.

#32
Eliantariel
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 05:37

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Thank you very much for all the thoughts that you made yourself and shared with us. It was great to read and it is very interesting how well it fits to the 3-arc design.

Concerning "cheating": I really think it depends on the player and how their Shepard is role-played. For some it will be cheating, for others not. Maybe in combination of chosen dialogue in ME3 it will be settled as cheated or not cheated.

#33
kareatix
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 05:41

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Fantastic analysis. You pretty much summed up how my perception of the VS romance changed over time. At first I was angry and disappointed (oh noes, bioware writers hate my fave characters!) but then I realised that among other things, it's the (unresolved) conflict that makes me look forward to ME3 so much. Other romances seemed a bit too "smooth" for my taste, and the relationship with the VS was/is just... well, "bumpy".

And although I understand that some VS fans may have mixed feelings about the treatment of their favourite characters in ME2 and ME3, I also have a feeling no other characters get this kind of development, this wide range of possible player reactions to the relationship (yea, I've read the script). People who like Kaidan/Ash will get what they want, people who don't will also be satisfied. It's something I'm really happy about.

So once again, thanks for your post.

#34
Tropulous
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 07:02

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I'm so glad that so many people read the analysis :lol:. Thanks for all your words!

As for the people who asked if I could analyze other romances: I might do that if I had the time and energy, but it took me a lot of time to whip out that one analysis, and now I have to study for my exams. Perhaps in another time.

As for the Liara romance: I'd say it follows the three-act structure too, at least theoretically. The fact that you can do LotSB right after meeting her completely destroys the dramatic progression of the second act though, so I'm not sure how I'd tackle an analysis of her romance arc.

In any case, you should know how the three-act structure works now, so I'd be delighted if someone else wanted to try a similar analysis! Either of another romance arc, of the main plot of the Mass Effect trilogy (it follows the three-act too), or something else :)

Modifié par Tropulous, 05 janvier 2012 - 07:05 .

#35
CptData
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 07:13

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Ryzaki wrote...

This was an excellent read.

Though my eye twitched at the "cheating". It's not. It never will be.


It depends on how the characters will see it in game.
I concur if you say it's not cheating since Horizon can be considered as break up (or Shepard's death!!!). However, that letter following that event on Horizon tries to fix done damage and keeps a door open to continue that relationship.

So if the characters in game consider it as "cheating" if you go after another LI, then it's "cheating", regardless of what we think. If it's not considered as cheating, then not. I can live with both interpretations. :whistle:

My canon!Shep considers it as cheating, by the way, my second playthrough does not. However, neither my canon nor that secondary guy took a new LI in ME2. So my first one considers himself as loyal, my second Shepard considers himself as single and not interested in the women on board.

Roleplay? ^^

Modifié par CptData, 05 janvier 2012 - 07:14 .

#36
Ryzaki
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 07:17

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CptData wrote...
It depends on how the characters will see it in game.
I concur if you say it's not cheating since Horizon can be considered as break up (or Shepard's death!!!). However, that letter following that event on Horizon tries to fix done damage and keeps a door open to continue that relationship.

So if the characters in game consider it as "cheating" if you go after another LI, then it's "cheating", regardless of what we think. If it's not considered as cheating, then not. I can live with both interpretations. :whistle:


No it's not.

Shep's death is what ended the relationship. There was never any attempt to patch it up. Cheating implies deceit and trickery. (thus you can't "cheat" in an open relationship no matter who else you sleep with as long as you're being honest with your partner). If Shep and the VS had still been in an exclusive relationship then yes Shep would be cheating by romancing X afterwards. (Just like the VS would have been cheating by sleeping with whomever they were sleeping with after Shep was "dead").

I could consider the sky pink that doesn't make it pink.

I saw that letter as trying to keep the door open to restart the relationship.

And yeah no. If Kaidan says my Shep cheated on him my Shep will laugh in his face and walk away. Like I said cheating implies deceit and trickery. My Shep did not lie to Kaidan about the state of their relationship. Even the VS refers to their relationship like it was in the past "I loved you." 

Edit: Of course if your Shep wants to see it as cheating he's free to do so. I just get agitated when people try to say other people's Shep's "cheated." when no it's not cheating. The whole point of cheating is that you're lying and decieving someone.

If Shep comes to the VS in ME3 and said "Oh I've been loyal to you baby and I never ever been with anyone else and let's get back together." then yes then he's a cheating lying bastard (to both the ME2 LI and ME1 LI). If Shep goes "Eh. I moved on." No he didn't cheat. He moved on.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2012 - 07:22 .

#37
CptData
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 07:17

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Tropulous wrote...

I'm so glad that so many people read the analysis :lol:. Thanks for all your words!

As for the people who asked if I could analyze other romances: I might do that if I had the time and energy, but it took me a lot of time to whip out that one analysis, and now I have to study for my exams. Perhaps in another time.

As for the Liara romance: I'd say it follows the three-act structure too, at least theoretically. The fact that you can do LotSB right after meeting her completely destroys the dramatic progression of the second act though, so I'm not sure how I'd tackle an analysis of her romance arc.

In any case, you should know how the three-act structure works now, so I'd be delighted if someone else wanted to try a similar analysis! Either of another romance arc, of the main plot of the Mass Effect trilogy (it follows the three-act too), or something else :)


Think I wrote you a PM regarding that topic: Liara's romance follows the same trope, but the points are shifted a bit. Overall the Liara romance comes with less ups and downs and you can do a part of the confrontation in ME2 already (LotSB). That's why Liara-fans feel relieved while VS-fans are still at the point "everything-is-lost".

Overall Liara-romance comes closer to a "perfect" romance (for those guys who love it that way), while both VS-romances are pretty much overshadowed by Shepard's death and drama caused by Cerberus.


Ryzaki wrote...

No it's not.

Shep's death is what ended the relationship. There was never any attempt to patch it up.
Cheating implies deceit and trickery. (thus you can't "cheat" in an open relationship no matter who else you sleep with as long as you're being honest with your partner). If Shep and the VS had still been in an exclusive relationship then yes Shep would be cheating by romancing X afterwards. (Just like the VS would have been cheating by sleeping with whomever they were sleeping with after Shep was "dead").

I could consider the sky pink that doesn't make it pink.

I saw that letter as trying to keep the door open to restart the relationship.

And yeah no. If Kaidan says my Shep cheated on him my Shep will laugh in his face and walk away. Like I said cheating implies deceit and trickery. My Shep did not lie to Kaidan about the state of their relationship.

As I said, it highly depends on your own interpretation.

You can't tell me "it's not" - because that's your interpretion. The focus is on "your" in that statement.
It doesn't meet mine - it doesn't need to. 

So if my Ashley tells Shepard I was cheating, then my Shepard will accept this. If you're going to throw away the VS-romance because it doesn't meet your own view on the things, then it's your decision. :P
Besides that, the VS believes Shepard cheated on death. For them Shepard never died but vanished to become an agent for Cerberus. They don't know what we do. Lets hope they're going to listen.

Just for the record: we're not talking about "is the sky pink or not" but "is the gras of my neighbor greener than mine".

Modifié par CptData, 05 janvier 2012 - 07:23 .

#38
Guest_Catch This Fade_*
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 07:20

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Tropulous wrote...

WARNING: MASSIVE WALL OF TEXT IN THIS POST

Okay. Do you guys remember Casey Hudson saying that the ME1 romance arc follows the 3-act concept, back before ME2 came out? No? He did say that, right here. Well, it turns out, that statement is actually very true: the key events of the trilogy follow the template quite rigorously. Let's break down the VS romance arc, and compare it to the typical narrative of the Three Act Structure. I recommend that you open that link, because I'll use terms from that page, and it'll make this analysis easier to read.

Mass Effect 1

The First Act is the Setup. Generally speaking, it lasts the first quarter of the story, and is where the main characters are introduced and the dramatic premise (i.e. what the story's about) and the dramatic situation (i.e. the setting and context in which the story's taking place) are established. At some point in the First Act (usually half-way, but not always) the Call to Adventure (or in more mundane settings, an Inciting Incident) occurs to set the plot of the film in motion. Whether the protagonist accepts it or not, it doesn't matter; events are set in motion causing the protagonist to follow the path of the narrative, whether they want to or not.

True enough, in Mass Effect 1 we meet Ashley and Kaidan. During the game we learn about them, and their dramatic situation (their personality, their motivations, their personal story) and dramatic premise (whether we're interested in them as friends or something more) are established. It's all tame flirting until the Inciting Incident of the romance arc rolls in: the Normandy is grounded and all regulations are thrown out of the window to finalize the mission, so when the VS visits Shepard they go "ah, what the hell" and there's a confession of feelings. It's clear the flirting has materialized into an actual romantic investment at this point, and we can choose to celebrate that by having sex or not. In any case, the romance is now set in motion, and the relationship is established until Plot Point #1 happens in Mass Effect 2. And Plot Point #1, the reversal that sends the narrative into a different direction than it had previously been going, the jump between the first act and the second act, is Shepard's death.

This is why the game doesn't register if you left to die on Virmire a character you were romancing: the Inciting Incident that upgrades the romance from "mild flirting" to "full-fledged relationship" hasn't happened yet, so it wasn't really a romance yet. This is why the romance imports as complete into ME2 even if you turn them down in your quarters: the confession of feelings and the manifestation of romantic investment is there, you're just turning down the sex. And this is why the emails they send in ME2 talk so highly of the "night before Ilos": it's not because of the sex (they might have had time for it again or not in the month before the Normandy blows up), it's because, you know, it's the event that set the relationship in motion.

Mass Effect 2

The Second Act, the Confrontation, is the longest. In this act, the main character(s) meet their Mentors, Love Interests are established and, most especially, the protagonists will encounter obstacles in the form of people, objects and settings that appear with rising potency and increasing frequency in order to stymie the protagonist. In particular, the presence of the foe will be felt, causing the first clashes between The Protagonist and The Antagonist.

The presence of the foe (Cerberus) is certainly felt in Mass Effect 2: not only do they provide the obstacles that stymie the protagonist (by making sure Shepard is cut off from the Alliance and preventing contact with the VS), they're also responsible for opening a huge rift in the relationship, creating the main conflict to conquer in the romance arc. Sure, it's Anderson that stonewalls you and the VS from knowing about each other, and it's the VS the one who flips out. But ultimately, they all have main plot reasons for doing so, and it's all because of Cerberus.

At some point during this stage (often halfway), the protagonist will seem to be close to accomplishing the ultimate goal, but events will conspire to prevent success. As a result, the protagonist will reach his/her lowest point and will often temporarily give up in despair.

Here comes the Setback (or Midpoint) event of the story: say hello to Horizon. Let's analyze that part and everything surrounding it, from the point of view of the romance arc.

Up until this point we've been unable to contact the VS, but now there's an opportunity where we can actually meet them. And once we do, there's a display of affection between Shepard and the VS; it might seem like we are close to accomplishing the goal (reestablishing the relationship). However, events conspire to prevent success, and that's because of the main plot: Shepard being Alive and With Cerberus is too shocking for the VS to take. We can try to resolve the situation, but it's not possible. In the end, the VS leaves, and we are left with an intense feeling of frustration, of disappointment, of what could have been but wasn't (this is why there are so many Horizon fix fics; it's an outlet for the fans to vent frustration).

(A side comment: remember, the VS doesn't actually dump you, or humiliate you, or do many of the terrible things
they have been accused of doing by the fandom. However, the frustration we get from that part of the story heightens our emotions to the point that for us, they might as well have done such things. That sensation is the purpose of the Setback event of the three-act structure, essentially. And like the rest of stories based on that template, it's there to grab and shake the audience, to make us more personally affected by the characters, and to help make the final resolution of the story that much more satisfying. Conflict is the soul of drama, after all. It should also be noted that by the end of the story, when we have the full picture of it, the impression we have of the Setback usually changes quite a bit from the one we get the first time we see it. This happens quite frequently with stories based on the three-act structure, and a tweet from Mac Walters hints that it might be the case here.)

Things go downhill from here. The stakes of the main plot get higher, Cerberus becomes more actively manipulative, Shepard is forced to put down personal feelings to help the crew, and we are still unable to contact the VS. Sure, there's the email, which serves to soften (a little) the sucker punch of Horizon, and it's a reminder that their feelings behind the relationship are still kind of there, even if they're clearly hurt (and it's a necessary reminder for the players, because without it we would have no way to know that the relationship can be salvaged at all). But the email comes at the Crisis part of the story, the dark half of the second act, and it shows: it's not reassuring, it's full of doubts, and it offers no hope. Indeed, for many players, the uncertainty of the email pissed them off even more, while the most hopeful clung to the "reminder of feelings" part.

It's around this part that we can start to define our reaction to the lowest point of the romance arc, when the protagonist is at its worst and the conflict is at its strongest: are we going to give up ("cheat"), or are we going to resist against all odds ("stay true")? The time before crossing the Omega 4 Relay is where we make the final decision: we can put behind the VS for good and consummate a relationship with a ME2 love interest, we can regret it and turn down the developing relationship at the last moment, and if we decided to resist, we spend what could be Shepard's last hours alone, staring miserably at the picture, to drive home the point.

I imagine that this is a reason why the writers consistently refer to "hooking up with someone in ME2 while having a romance from ME1" as "cheating", and why it has somewhat negative connotations. From the storytelling point of view of the ME1 romance arc, it means you have given up; you have abandoned the struggle and have no intention of continuing the fight. And hey, there's a reason why many protagonists have succumbed to despair or temptation at their darkest hour: it's only human. Meanwhile, staying loyal is much more challenging, but there's a reason why protagonists that resist giving up on their struggles exist, too: that kind of determination is what makes them heroes. It all comes down to preference, really; we could argue which way is better, but we are never going to agree on that. And that's without counting many other decisive elements and alternative interpretations, external to this  romance, that factor in the decision of the players to go one way or another; it's certainly a situation with a wide array of possibilities. If the writers at Bioware did their homework they'll take most of them into account, with dialogue for every outcome.

Regardless of our actions, at the end of Mass Effect 2 the relationship with the VS is at an all-time low, and it's not going to improve until Plot Point #2. And Plot Point #2, the reversal that sends the narrative into a different direction than it had previously been going, the jump between the second act and the third act, won't come around until Mass Effect 3. This is why there was no chance to reply to the email, to contact the VS at all, to have some extra content that allowed a little reconciliation: aside from "because we already have a use for them in the main plot", the three-act structure demands that the end of act two must be the lowest point of the story, and there's no way around that.

Mass Effect 3

In order to fully analyze this part, I would need to mention spoilers from the leak, but I won't do that here. Instead, I'll give you some reassuring words: the writers still stick to the three-act structure, so you can imagine what will happen. We will be able to choose how to resolve the conflict, and the resolution will be satisfying for everyone. And after that, there will be as much content with the VS as we want. So there's nothing to worry about, because the story will deliver :)

If you have read the leaks (or if you don't mind getting a BIG amount of ME3 spoiled) and want the full analysis, PM me.

Some of my own conclusions

Some of these are my own opinions. Feel free to agree with them or not.

1) Hey look, it seems like the writers at Bioware actually know what they're doing!

An obvious conclusion, but it bears repeating: the writers don't hate the VS, or the VS fans, or want to steer players away from the VS to their own favorites. They simply would scrap the concept and start over if that was the case, and professional writers don't let their preferences taint the story anyway. No, these kind of plotlines are planned from the start, from the moment you're creating and polishing the characters and their roles in the story, from the moment you're thinking up the main plot and deciding on the key moments and themes and twists you'll hit with the trilogy. And they wouldn't have dedicated so many resources to them if they didn't want players to experience their romance arc (just like I wouldn't be writing ridiculously long essays on fictional characters in my free time if I didn't care for them).

It remains to be seen how well implemented the full story will be in the end. So far, the writers have manipulated our emotions quite masterfully. After Mass Effect 1, we hadn't hit Plot Point #1 yet, and we were still at the part of the romance arc where everything looked promising, and we hadn't met the main conflict yet. The players were happy, and had high hopes for their romances. After Mass Effect 2, we were at the lowest point of the relationship with them, the point where everything looked bleak and giving up seemed like the best option. For the players, the feelings of hopelessness and betrayal and general unhappiness regarding the VS were intense at this point. It's been a while since the game came out, and there's been time for everyone to calm down (or for everyone to rationalize their hurt feelings), but still, something can be said about the VS in ME2: pretty much nobody felt indifferent about them anymore. Whether we love them or hate them, they got us to feel strongly about their characters, and ultimately that is what plays the biggest role in making satisfying the resolution of their personal plotline. So when Mass Effect 3 comes out, everything about them should be explained, and should conclude their story the way we choose to. And from the impression I got from the leaked text, it looks like everyone will be satisfied, one way or another.

It also remains to be seen if it was a good idea to use the three-act structure, a template for creating dramatic storylines, for a romance arc. After all, it seems like the most popular romances are those with little conflict. Maybe fans aren't that interested in all the emotional highs and lows and tension and anxiety of drama when doing romances; they simply want a closer connection to their favorite characters, to get to know them better, and to have a good time with them (and hopefully there will be sex scenes, too). This is probably a good reason (though not the only one by any means) for why so many people picked a new LI in ME2; they were turned off from the ME1 romance because of the dramatic turn it took.

On the other hand, romances have been accused many times of being pure fanservice, pointless fluff that adds nothing to the story. By linking a romance to the main plot, they're adding another dimension to it, a more personal reason to get involved and take sides regarding Cerberus; by making the romance affected by the main plot, they're extending the scope and the seriousness of it, since it's influencing Shepard's private life. By doing this, the mutual feedback between both storylines should help and strengthen each other, ultimately raising the total emotional impact on the player. And emotional impact is what storytelling is about, after all.

Of course, weaving the romance of a character into the main plot creates its own set of problems, such as...

2) What if I don't like the VS?

Obviously, not everybody is going to be interested in romancing the same characters. That's good, romances are optional for a reason, and the VS storyline works for the friendship path too, even if it doesn't have quite the same dramatic punch. However, regardless of the player preferences, certain character plotlines are going to be necessarily involved with the main plot. That's how stories are built. Since characters are different from each other, they can't really have interchangeable roles without weakening the main plot, so you're going to be stuck with certain characters on certain roles whether you like it or not. This means that in the case of the VS, for the players that didn't like or care about them and didn't even consider them good friends, they'll still have forced conflict with them, and the mutual feedback I mentioned earlier that both storylines have on each other could be negative instead of positive. It's the same reason why some people are complaining about Liara's "forced friendship", "forced plot involvement" and such; if the characters you hate have roles on the story you don't like for them, it can have a negative impact on your game experience.

My stance on this topic is that holding on to character hate is as useful as complaining about the roles certain characters will have on the plot because that's how the story was written: it's ultimately pointless. Sure, everyone will have characters that rub them the wrong way (I have my own), but by holding on to that hate and refusing to see their positive traits, the only thing you are going to achieve is to cut down you own enjoyment of the game. I'm not going to ask the fanbase to stop raging -this is the Internet, after all- but from an individual point of view, I do consider it the wisest thing to do.

An extra thought

On the progression of romances: Romantic subplots on a single game always follow the standard of "talk, talk, then sex before the final mission". They aren't following the three-act structure, but they do follow the structure of basic storytelling, which is "rising action until the climax" (there's a sex joke here somewhere). It doesn't make for the most realistic romances, but it helps make the culmination scenes more memorable. It's just the approach the writers have chosen.

Finally, if anyone at Bioware stumbles across this: the fact that I spent the time to write such a long essay on fictional characters (and in English, which isn't my native language!) probably speaks of how invested you managed to get me in the games, and how well you succeeded as storytellers. So, keep going guys. For all it's worth, you have my support :)

This might be the best analysis I've read yet on the situation.

#39
Ryzaki
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 07:25

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CptData wrote...
As I said, it highly depends on your own interpretation.

You can't tell me "it's not" - because that's your interpretion. The focus is on "your" in that statement.
It doesn't meet mine - it doesn't need to. 

So if my Ashley tells Shepard I was cheating, then my Shepard will accept this. If you're going to throw away the VS-romance because it doesn't meet your own view on the things, then it's your decision. :P



Okay then so you accept that my Shep wasn't cheating on anyone? 

Eh VS tells my Shep he/she cheated my Shep will laugh and walk away. And it's not "throwing away" it's moving on. (why are we even going on about throwing away the VS romance because it doesn't meet anyone's views on anything? Maybe my Shep *gasps* likes the ME2 Lis more? Or that he made a mistake and didn't know the VS as well as he thought (or feels that the VS didn't get "him" but merely what they wanted him to be).).

Besides that, the VS believes Shepard cheated on death. For them Shepard never died but vanished to become an agent for Cerberus. They don't know what we do. Lets hope they're going to listen.

Just for the record: we're not talking about "is the sky pink or not" but "is the gras of my neighbor greener than mine".


If they actually believe Shep didn't die then meh. My Shep flat out told them he was dead and plenty of people saw his corpse (fought over it) to prove it. They apparently already didn't listen.

So cheating is open to interpretation then? Alright. My interpretation is that my Shep didn't (and couldn't) cheat on the VS because they had no ongoing relationship for cheating to occur. Maybe yours did. I dunno. I'm just sick of people painting all Sheps with the "cheater" brush. To me a main component of cheating is betrayal and deceit. Neither of which I see Shep do to the VS.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2012 - 07:35 .

#40
CptData
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 07:52

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^ This, Sir, I can accept.
I just felt a tiny bit offended by your "No it's not" - since it felt like "I'm right and you're not."
We're both right OR both wrong.

Now lets close the case ... don't wanna derail the thread. It's too awesome. ^_^

Modifié par CptData, 05 janvier 2012 - 07:52 .

#41
Ryzaki
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 07:57

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CptData wrote...

^ This, Sir, I can accept.
I just felt a tiny bit offended by your "No it's not" - since it felt like "I'm right and you're not."
We're both right OR both wrong.

Now lets close the case ... don't wanna derail the thread. It's too awesome. ^_^


I felt a bit offended by the "cheating" bullet in the first place. Twas unnecessary.

Eh I'm pretty sure the devs will leave it open to interpretation. I just hope they have Shep decide if it's cheating or not cheating and not have the VS bust out a "you cheated on me!" because my respect for them is already pretty damn low. 

And yeah.

#42
CptData
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 08:05

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Ryzaki wrote...

I felt a bit offended by the "cheating" bullet in the first place. Twas unnecessary.

Eh I'm pretty sure the devs will leave it open to interpretation. I just hope they have Shep decide if it's cheating or not cheating and not have the VS bust out a "you cheated on me!" because my respect for them is already pretty damn low. 

And yeah.


Maybe. Maybe we can get both interpretations in one game buy picking different options. Maybe in one dialogue Ashley/Kaidan accept that you were not cheating since Shepard considered the relationship as "dead like I was for two years". Lets hope you can pick such an option.
I'll go for that other option: "Ash, I was dead, but when I came back my first thought was with you."

Besides that, I won't run into that particular dialogue since none of my Shepards picked a new LI in ME2. So that issue won't come up.

#43
Tropulous
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 08:09

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If it serves as a consolation, I used the word "cheating" because it's the word the writers use, and because it's shorter than "hooking up with a ME2 LI while having an active ME1 romance". It wasn't my intention to stir that debate here.

As for your opinion of the VS, Ryzaki... if you've read the leaks, I wrote a full analysis of the VS romance arc covering Mass Effect 3. If you're interested, I can PM it to you.

#44
Ryzaki
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 08:15

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Tropulous wrote...

If it serves as a consolation, I used the word "cheating" because it's the word the writers use, and because it's shorter than "hooking up with a ME2 LI while having an active ME1 romance". It wasn't my intention to stir that debate here.

As for your opinion of the VS, Ryzaki... if you've read the leaks, I wrote a full analysis of the VS romance arc covering Mass Effect 3. If you're interested, I can PM it to you.


To me moving on is the best word to use. Cheating has severe negative connations. Like I said to me at least it implies trickery and deceit.

Eh I read the leaks too. My impression of them didn't improve. It is a well written romance but not for me I'm afraid.

CptData wrote...Maybe. Maybe we can get both interpretations in one game buy picking different options. Maybe in one dialogue Ashley/Kaidan accept that you were not cheating since Shepard considered the relationship as "dead like I was for two years". Lets hope you can pick such an option.

I'll go for that other option: "Ash, I was dead, but when I came back my first thought was with you."

Besides that, I won't run into that particular dialogue since none of my Shepards picked a new LI in ME2. So that issue won't come up.


As long as cheating is relegated to an option Shep can pick as an describer (or cheating is used where it actually fits in my view like moving on from a ME2 Li to Liara without bothering to break it off with the ME2 LI). So yeah as long as it's just Shep calling it that optionally or where Shep did actually decieve someone I won't care. (like Shep trying to pretend s/he didn't sleep with the ME2 LI to Ash/Kaidan).

I just hope my Shep can kill any discussions about their and the VS relationship with a "I moved on and let's get back to business." if I can do that I'm happy. [granted I can edit out the romances with the two Sheps and just have them single in ME1 but bleh.]

I just really don't like cheating as a describer. To me it doesn't fit.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2012 - 08:17 .

#45
thelele
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 08:27

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So the writers did plan the VS romance out pretty well. This is going to be a good romance. Damn good. You managed to make me trust the writers again, OP. ;)

The ME3 analysis is fantastic too.

#46
Shepard's_Fist
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 08:37

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Very well put analysis. I couldn't agree more with your thoughts on "fanservice" and "force plot involvement". It's too bad that everyone can't get past those perceptions and just enjoy the ride. I can't wait for this game, it's going to be a thrilling conclusion to this series. Well done.

#47
K_Tabris
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 09:47

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xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

wow, that was a great read and a great analysis...

that almost restored my faith in the next game.

almost.


The real question is, how much character assassination will the V.S. in order for every V.S.-mancer to get their smut?  I don't think they can get better than LotSB or possibly Thane's romance, but I'm still prepared to be surprised.

#48
Tropulous
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 10:41

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Ryzaki wrote...

To me moving on is the best word to use. Cheating has severe negative connations. Like I said to me at least it implies trickery and deceit.

Eh I read the leaks too. My impression of them didn't improve. It is a well written romance but not for me I'm afraid.


"Moving on" implies that you have no intention whatsoever to return to the ME1 romance, which is someting you can do in ME3. It's a perfectly sensible roleplaying choice, of course... but we're speaking in general terms here, and a choice of words that dismisses one of the potential situations isn't very desirable, I'd say.

Granted, "cheating" has another whole set of connotations... but it's the word the writers use, which means that if I use it, people will know what I talk about. Which is why it's the word I use in the analysis.

I didn't really want to restart the debate here, though. I just wanted to point that out.

Modifié par Tropulous, 05 janvier 2012 - 10:44 .

#49
Wynne
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 10:43

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Very interesting analysis. Also, I used to think I was the verbose poster on these forums. I HAVE NOW BEEN SCHOOLED. ;)

Mims wrote...

My little brother has been loyal to Ashley since the first game. I don't think he's even romanced another character or looked at another character, which I find hella adorable.

That is hella adorable. :) Your bro must be a sweet guy, and I love dudes that appreciate toughness in a woman's character like that.

Ryzaki wrote...

This was an excellent read.

Though my eye twitched at the "cheating". It's not. It never will be.

You have my vast agreement.

My personal main FemShep playthrough had her pretty much fall for Kaidan, then get her heart broken on Horizon. As far as she was concerned, it was over, because he didn't believe in her and didn't care enough to come to her and resolve things. All he had to do was set up a meeting on the Citadel; she passed through there sometimes, she would've met him in a heartbeat. That was her perspective, flawed or no--the ball was in his court, he knew he could lose her again, he passed up the opportunity to work with her again and make sure that didn't happen. He did call her a traitor after all, even if he did apologize. To her, and me, his note sounded like a goodbye. "I still care for you, don't die, but I don't know who you are anymore." 

So when she prepared to walk into death with a hunky alien at her side, who was going to die anyway even if they did get through that suicide mission, it really didn't take much for her to say "be alive with me tonight." She had the sense Thane wouldn't have thrown that kind of accusation at her; after all, he remembers everything, which is both awesome and terrifying, but results in a person who would not forget the Shepard he knew. Not even after two years. She felt like Kaidan did forget, and whatever she might feel in the future when she finds out the extenuating circumstances, it hurt and angered her at the time.

Ryzaki wrote...

Eh I'm pretty sure the devs will leave it
open to interpretation. I just hope they have Shep decide if it's
cheating or not cheating and not have the VS bust out a "you cheated on
me!" because my respect for them is already pretty damn low.

Same here. I want to either patch up my friendship with Kaidan or, possibly, decide that he's changed and is ultimately better for her than Thane, depending on who Kaidan is after all he's been through and who Thane is now that the questions of his wife and his death and his son are behind him. I'd like to think either would understand, in the end. Both romances happened under extreme duress.

For my ManShep... I don't know. It's a bit more IC for Ashley to bust out the emotional tirades, but she's already done that and apologized for it. For it to happen again would suck. Especially since Jack and Ash seem like the type to like each other. It's going to suck to have to choose between them, too, if it comes to that, but I don't think my guy would hurt Jack. Ash can take it; for Jack, that kind of betrayal... eh, I can't see her being okay after having love held in front of her face and having it taken away again. But it's still harsh, because I was always so fond of Ash, and Torran is a big fluffy softy of a Paragon who mostly thought Ash didn't want him anymore, and Jack needed him. He is the type who wants to use his emotional stability as a base for someone who challenges him, but needs him.

I want the chance for the relationships to evolve (especially if it's like what happened in LotSB with Liara--where people have their moments of harsh words and pain, but then regain their maturity shortly afterward and apologize, trying to find common ground, and work things out like adults). For forgiveness to grow. And that is not going to happen if the VS gets too high and mighty.

I and my VS-involved Shepards are willing to listen and try to understand, willing to concede that the VS had really good reasons for their actions that they didn't or even couldn't share with Shepard at the time, but not to have the VS display such a crushing lack of: faith in Shepard/understanding for extreme circumstances yet again. Not if it's not immediately followed by realization and apologies.

Well, regardless, I love that the romance arc is so detailed that it makes me think in such depth. I really do. I hope they can pull it off to a degree that will make it truly edifying and will not feel unfair, and make us replay ME2 with a sense of perspective as to what the VS was going through and that they had to make the choices they did. I hope that I'll have to choose between the two romances, and that the choice will be at least somewhat agonizing, but will make me feel like I know what makes sense for my character.

I'll try most options out eventually, probably; both "cheating" and staying faithful to the memory of what Shepard and the VS had. I just want it all to feel like it makes sense in context. I like grey morality in my relationships, because usually that's how it is in real life, too. Shepard and the VS both went through their own personal hells, I think. I'd like for them to be able to come to an understanding.

Or bitterly hate each other, if Shep decides to be cruel. I wonder if that's also possible. That would be awesome, in a really mean sort of way. Constantly sniping exes, running into battle together, each determined to make sure that the other doesn't die because "No one gets to have the pleasure of killing you except for me, and that's after all this Reaper business is done so that it can be nice and slow!"

Well, maybe not. But it's a charming thought, right? ;)

Modifié par Wynne, 05 janvier 2012 - 10:45 .

#50
Ryzaki
Posté 05 janvier 2012 - 10:45

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Tropulous wrote...
"Moving on" implies that you have no intention whatsoever to return to the ME1 romance, which is someting you
can do in ME3. It's a perfectly sensible roleplaying choice, of course... but we're speaking in general terms here, and a choice of words that dismisses one of the potential situations isn't very desirable, I'd say.

Granted, "cheating" has another whole set of connotations... but it's the word the writers use, which means that if I use it, people will know what I talk about. Which is why it's the word I use in the analysis.


But cheating implies that Sheps trying to continue the romance as well. So you're dismissing one of the potential situations yourself are you not? My Sheps have no intention of trying to get back together with the VS. Thus why my eye twitches at the word cheating. Heck even those that stayed "loyal" (which they weren't. They simply didn't romance anyone in ME2) wouldn't be getting back together with the VS.

Eh the devs using it to me doesn't make it any more accurate. The devs had Tali call herself a woman. That wasn't right either unless Tali's species has suddenly changed to human.

Frankly simply saying romancing a ME2 LI would've been both accurate and not dismissing one of the potential situations.

@Wynne: Heh my Shep feels he misjudged what Ash stood for and she for him. They fell in love with ideals of each other and not the actual thing thus why after he takes a step back from the whirlwind that was ME1 and looks at it with a clear head he sees he made a bad decision getting involved with her.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2012 - 10:57 .

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