102 réponses à ce sujet

[Tropulous]

Ryzaki wrote...

But cheating implies that you're trying to continue the romance as well. So you're dismissing one of the potential situations yourself are you not?

Eh the devs using it to me doesn't make it any more accurate. The devs had Tali call herself a woman. That wasn't right either.

Frankly simply saying romancing a ME2 LI would've been both accurate and not dismissing one of the potential situations.

And I never claimed it was accurate, because it very much isn't. But as I said, the fact the the writers use that word means that if I use it, people will know I mean "romancing a ME2 LI while having an active ME1 romance", and they'll know I mean that with the use of a single word. It's not a good word to use, but it's the lesser of two evils.

The ideal solution would be for everyone to settle universally on an accurate word that describes the ME1 LI -> ME2 LI situation without throwing in subjectivity, but there's been no success on that front. And I prefer to leave that battle for native speakers of English.

[Ryzaki]

Tropulous wrote...
And I never claimed it was accurate, because it very much isn't. But as I said, the fact the the writers use that word means that if I use it, people will know I mean "romancing a ME2 LI while having an active ME1 romance", and they'll know I mean that with the use of a single word. It's not a good word to use, but it's the lesser of two evils.

The ideal solution would be for everyone to settle universally on an accurate word that describes the ME1 LI -> ME2 LI situation without throwing in subjectivity, but there's been no success on that front. And I prefer to leave that battle for native speakers of English.

I see what you mean. Still I will object to the use of that word because of its connotations.

Aw. Frankly though I'd just stick with "romancing a ME2 LI" or romanced a ME2 LI. But that's because like I said...cheating makes my eye twitch.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 janvier 2012 - 11:07 .

[Wynne]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Wynne: Heh my Shep feels he misjudged what Ash stood for and she for him. They fell in love with ideals of each other and not the actual thing thus why after he takes a step back from the whirlwind that was ME1 and looks at it with a clear head he sees he made a bad decision getting involved with her.

See, that makes perfect sense to me, too. It's why I want them to give us deep options here--this is an area where the player should be able to decide, not just "do I want this character or this one," but also the crucial question of why.

This was, as Tropulous called it, a "romance arc," not just a romance. To truly do it justice, we need control over Shepard, as much as we can get. We need a heart-to-heart talk and resolution. If the VS just threw, "you cheated!" at Shepard with no apology and no relenting, then I would lose all the respect I want to rebuild for Ash and Kaidan. There would be no fledgling friendship, just a whole lot of renegade options and "go to hells" because as you said, I take strong exception to the word "cheating." If the VS had expressed a desire to continue the relationship despite the harsh circumstances, then sure, it was cheating. But that's not what happened.

I might play a character that would cheat, but it's hard for me, because it's something I would never do. I would break up with someone, but I wouldn't cheat on them, it's not how I work as a person. Hell, I would even warn someone who continually rejected me for sex, "if this keeps up, I will end up either breaking up with you or cheating on you, so something has to change"-- but it's extraordinarily unlikely that I would actually cheat because that's so pointless. Why crush someone's sense of trust when the relationship is essentially over? Far better to just decide whether you want to either end it or fix it rather than choose a useless cry for help which opens the door for the other person to say, "we're over because you hurt me past what I can bear." I wouldn't tolerate cheating in a partner of mine, so I wouldn't tolerate that in myself, either.

So, yeah. I agree with you completely on how much I don't like the word cheating where it doesn't belong, because to me, cheating is for indecisive, self-hating people. But I do like that the OP uses quotation marks around the word, because that softens it in my eyes.

Well, here's hoping they make these VS interactions as multi-dimensional as such a hefty subject deserves.

[Ryzaki]

Wynne wrote...
See, that makes perfect sense to me, too. It's why I want them to give us deep options here--this is an area where the player should be able to decide, not just "do I want this character or this one," but also the crucial question of why.

This was, as Tropulous called it, a "romance arc," not just a romance. To truly do it justice, we need control over Shepard, as much as we can get. We need a heart-to-heart talk and resolution. If the VS just threw, "you cheated!" at Shepard with no apology and no relenting, then I would lose all the respect I want to rebuild for Ash and Kaidan. There would be no fledgling friendship, just a whole lot of renegade options and "go to hells" because as you said, I take strong exception to the word "cheating." If the VS had expressed a desire to continue the relationship despite the harsh circumstances, then sure, it was cheating. But that's not what happened.

Yes being able to let Shep explain him/herself would be ideal.

It's not. A nice conversation where Shep and the VS can mend bridges either by re-establishing their romantic relationship or with Shep trying to rebuild their friendship and no unnecessary name calling and childish quips on either end would be nice. (of course there should be the option for Shep to act like a petulant child and get treated like one in turn by the VS but there should also be mature and reasonable choices as well).

I might play a character that would cheat, but it's hard for me, because it's something I would never do. I would break up with someone, but I wouldn't cheat on them, it's not how I work as a person. Hell, I would even warn someone who continually rejected me for sex, "if this keeps up, I will end up either breaking up with you or cheating on you, so something has to change"-- but it's extraordinarily unlikely that I would actually cheat because that's so pointless. Why crush someone's sense of trust when the relationship is essentially over? Far better to just decide whether you want to either end it or fix it rather than choose a useless cry for help which opens the door for the other person to say, "we're over because you hurt me past what I can bear." I wouldn't tolerate cheating in a partner of mine, so I wouldn't tolerate that in myself, either.

So, yeah. I agree with you completely on how much I don't like the word cheating where it doesn't belong, because to me, cheating is for indecisive, self-hating people. But I do like that the OP uses quotation marks around the word, because that softens it in my eyes.

Well, here's hoping they make these VS interactions as multi-dimensional as such a hefty subject deserves.

I tried playing a character who would cheat...but...no it didn't go anywhere. Left a bad taste in my mouth. And yeah I feel pretty much as you do. Just seems like a pointless breech in trust.

I hope so as well.

[PunchySporkk]

Wonderful essay, now I'm even more excited for the game to come out! I have been replaying ME2 and wondering whether I wanted to hold out for Kaidan or pick someone new for maximum drama... and now I think I have to do both. Thanks!

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Ryzaki wrote...

Tropulous wrote...

If it serves as a consolation, I used the word "cheating" because it's the word the writers use, and because it's shorter than "hooking up with a ME2 LI while having an active ME1 romance". It wasn't my intention to stir that debate here.

As for your opinion of the VS, Ryzaki... if you've read the leaks, I wrote a full analysis of the VS romance arc covering Mass Effect 3. If you're interested, I can PM it to you.

To me moving on is the best word to use. Cheating has severe negative connations. Like I said to me at least it implies trickery and deceit.

To YOU it's moving on.

It's all a matter of how you see it yourself. I see it as cheating.

For the VS, if they sleep with someone or w/e ... it's not cheating. They thought Shepard was dead.

For Shepard, without knowing the status of the VS, and knowing they are still alive,(relationship or not... they don't get into that on horizon... and the VS clearly still has feelings for Shepard), it's cheating when you haven't resolved the other relationship yet. 

[Drone223]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Tropulous wrote...

If it serves as a consolation, I used the word "cheating" because it's the word the writers use, and because it's shorter than "hooking up with a ME2 LI while having an active ME1 romance". It wasn't my intention to stir that debate here.

As for your opinion of the VS, Ryzaki... if you've read the leaks, I wrote a full analysis of the VS romance arc covering Mass Effect 3. If you're interested, I can PM it to you.

To me moving on is the best word to use. Cheating has severe negative connations. Like I said to me at least it implies trickery and deceit.

To YOU it's moving on.

It's all a matter of how you see it yourself. I see it as cheating.

For the VS, if they sleep with someone or w/e ... it's not cheating. They thought Shepard was dead.

For Shepard, without knowing the status of the VS, and knowing they are still alive,(relationship or not... they don't get into that on horizon... and the VS clearly still has feelings for Shepard), it's cheating when you haven't resolved the other relationship yet. 

Agreed its up to the player to decide, but like you I see it as cheating

[Some Dude]

That was a good read OP, nice analysis!

[Ryzaki]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...
To YOU it's moving on.

It's all a matter of how you see it yourself. I see it as cheating.

For the VS, if they sleep with someone or w/e ... it's not cheating. They thought Shepard was dead.

For Shepard, without knowing the status of the VS, and knowing they are still alive,(relationship or not... they don't get into that on horizon... and the VS clearly still has feelings for Shepard), it's cheating when you haven't resolved the other relationship yet. 

So Shep and the VS are automatically still in a relationship during ME2? And Shep is decieving the ME2 LI about his/her current relationship with the VS? And the VS about his/her relationship with the ME2 LI?

So because Shep died and considered that to be the end of the relationship (you can still have feelings for someone and the relationship be over.) he's somehow cheating because he didn't yell at the VS as they were walking away "It's over ash!"

There was no attempt to restart the relationship. On neither Shep's part nor the VS. Actually one could see that "come with me Ash/Kaidan." to be an attempt on Shep's part just for them to get shut down. Maybe one could see the letter as such an attempt on the VS' side but for me it was too little too late. Heck Shep can even flat out tell Kelly as far as he/she's concerned it's over. No one mentions the VS as a current LI (not Kasumi, not Liara).

Yeah I'm not seeing Shep deciding to sleep with a ME2 LI as cheating not unless in ME3 he lies about it and tries to get back with Ash.

It's up to player interpretation but for me cheating implies lying and deceitfulness neither of which my Shep did to the VS and if they call him a cheater they can kick rocks and any attempt at any friendship will be shot dead right there. Neither him nor they were beholden to each other. Even marriage says Until death do we part. They never got together after they parted so there's no relationship to betray. Shep was dead longer then they've been in a relationship and the second their relationship is tested they turn tail and walk away. (they do make sure to get their digs in about Shep's intelligence and loyalty in first that was nice).

So yeah I'm not gonna see that as cheating no matter how many say otherwise. And if they did consider their partner cheating on them for doing what Shep did I'd probably laugh in their face.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 janvier 2012 - 02:57 .

[K_Tabris]

xxSgt_Reed_24xx wrote...

To YOU it's moving on.

It's all a matter of how you see it yourself. I see it as cheating.

For the VS, if they sleep with someone or w/e ... it's not cheating. They thought Shepard was dead.

For Shepard, without knowing the status of the VS, and knowing they are still alive,(relationship or not... they don't get into that on horizon... and the VS clearly still has feelings for Shepard), it's cheating when you haven't resolved the other relationship yet. 

Exactly: It's all how you RP your Shepards.  As of now, the Mass Effect series still has some rpg elements to them.  For my main Shep, all the closure she needed happened on Horizon.  For others,Horizon was the strained Act 2.

IMO, the death of Shepard no longer ends the relationship when she is resurrected.  The fact that Shepard comes back throws a huge wrench into the whole thing.  

The main problem lies in the lack of opportunity to deal with the relationship status, in commentary with other characters, as well as the VS directly.

It's not fair to even use the terms cheating or staying faithful.  Those don't even factor into it.  SHepard has the choice to continue the relationship, or start a new one.  That's all it is.

[Ryzaki]

NovinhaShepard wrote...
It's not fair to even use the terms cheating or staying faithful.  Those don't even factor into it.  SHepard has the choice to continue the relationship, or start a new one.  That's all it is.

Okay this I agree with.

[Badpie]

That was a really great post, OP. Thanks for taking the time to write it.

[Wtiger96]

Dang that was pretty good. It gave me some hope for the Ashley romance btw could you pm the details of act 3 with spoilers plz

[Bekkael]

To the OP: Thank you very much for taking the time to share your thoughts. I enjoyed reading your post immensely.

[DiebytheSword]

Masterfully written, insightful and analytical post OP, bravo.

[sanmar]

thank you for your essay. I'm so exciting for ME 3, especially now for the romance

Modifié par sanmar, 06 janvier 2012 - 09:50 .

[CptData]

NovinhaShepard wrote...

Exactly: It's all how you RP your Shepards.  As of now, the Mass Effect series still has some rpg elements to them.  For my main Shep, all the closure she needed happened on Horizon.  For others,Horizon was the strained Act 2.

IMO, the death of Shepard no longer ends the relationship when she is resurrected.  The fact that Shepard comes back throws a huge wrench into the whole thing.  

The main problem lies in the lack of opportunity to deal with the relationship status, in commentary with other characters, as well as the VS directly.

It's not fair to even use the terms cheating or staying faithful.  Those don't even factor into it.  SHepard has the choice to continue the relationship, or start a new one.  That's all it is.

I like the way how you're thinking.

How many people returned from the death? And how many people still loved the passed away ones? Right. Consider the PoV of the one who's left: s/he is still loving the passed away one. Now from one day to another that person returns from the dead. The one who didn't die still loves the one who died. So once the dead one returns, the feelings are still there, that relationship can be considered as "revived".

It's quite conflicting. Since no one has experienced something similar (being in Coma for 2 years isn't exactly the same), you need your imagination - which manifests in roleplay. I have two finished Shepards right now: my canon!Shepard who considers going after a new LI as cheating on Ashley and a second Shepard who doesn't see it that way and stayed single in ME2.

[M4N0FF4I7H]

Excellent Read:wizard:

Modifié par BornFree87, 06 janvier 2012 - 12:10 .

[Chewin]

Excellent post, OP. Was very enjoyable to read, and I agreed on pretty much every part you mentioned, even when you compared the VS with the other romances.

I hope that when ME3 is finally here, you'll post the whole analysis so that everyone can read it without being spoiled, b/c this is something that shouldn't be hidden for players romancing the VS and who are looking for elucidations.

[rudenotginger]

I was shocked and saddened by Horizon at first, but having studied the Three Act Structure before, I understood what the writers were going for. Some people believe it to be out of character for the VS to refuse to follow Shepard after the events of ME1, but in ME2 the VS are not aware of the whole story, they believe Shepard has not been dead for the last 2 years and that he/she has become a terrorist sympathizer. Like Kimberly Brooks, Ashley's VA, says here (http://fangeek.com/2...ooks-qa-part-1/), Ashley (and Kaidan) are loyal to the cause, and have very strong convictions to what is "right" and "wrong". So to me, them leaving the Alliance to work with Shepard and Cerberus is what would have been out of character.

Op, very well done. Great analysis!

[Silver77nz]

rudenotginger wrote...

Some people believe it to be out of character for the VS to refuse to follow Shepard after the events of ME1, but in ME2 the VS are not aware of the whole story, they believe Shepard has not been dead for the last 2 years and that he/she has become a terrorist sympathizer. Ashley (and Kaidan) are loyal to the cause, and have very strong convictions to what is "right" and "wrong". So to me, them leaving the Alliance to work with Shepard and Cerberus is what would have been out of character.

Op, very well done. Great analysis!

I also think many people forget that Shepard was almost charged with treason and the only thing that saved him/her was Anderson and saving the council life. I don't think other people take into account that Kaidan/Ashley are in the military and what kind of consequences Kaidan/Ashley would face for desertion and then further consequences for working with a terrorist organization. They would of been charged with desertion, imprisioned, and then possible execution. At least that what 2 people with Military backgrounds told me when I asked what would they be charged with.

I also think people forget that both Ashley and Kaidan have had difficult pasts. Both had to work really hard to prove how loyal and how valuable they are to the Allience. Most people don't trust L2 biotics so that is Kaidan struggle and he worked hard to show they can be trusted. Ashley has her background with her family and her grandfather. Her father got the shaft afterwards and she had to work 2 x as hard to get to where she was.

Also I think the reason people get so upset by the word "cheat" is because it is such a strong word and it hints at your Shep having no morals. Most people feel like they are Shep and some would never cheat or have been cheated on. That would feel like a personal attack on them personally as not being moral. I think they shouldn't of used the word "cheat" maybe found a better word with less accusation. What word would that be I have no idea?

Edited: To put the point of their background

Modifié par Silverpearl1977, 06 janvier 2012 - 04:11 .

[Graceyn]

Amazing post. Thank you!

I haven't read the replies beyond the first page, primarily because I expect a troll has dropped spoilers in by now.

So I'll just say again - thank you

[LadyofRivendell]

Great job! I actually wrote my final exam essay for English last quarter on the Three Act plot, I never thought about applying it to Mass Effect and its romances. I'm glad so many other people read this, too, instead of the typical tl;dr.

And I'm very impressed if you're not an English speaker (as one post said).

[LessThanKate]

Ryzaki wrote...

There was no attempt to restart the relationship. On neither Shep's part nor the VS. Actually one could see that "come with me Ash/Kaidan." to be an attempt on Shep's part just for them to get shut down. Maybe one could see the letter as such an attempt on the VS' side but for me it was too little too late. Heck Shep can even flat out tell Kelly as far as he/she's concerned it's over. No one mentions the VS as a current LI (not Kasumi, not Liara).

This was always something that bothered me, mostly with Liara since she definetely knew about the relationship with the VS, and the fact that when she and Shepard are talking in the cabin at the end of LoTSB, she is perfectly aligned with the picture on the desk. Granted, if the VS is to be mentioned at all, it is only as a "friend" who chose not to believe Shepard. Kasumi is one thing; Shepard doesn't have that same relationship made from an extended period of time; you may have not even recruited her until after Horizon. It's more odd that returning members, Garrus and Tali, make no note of it, although that could also be explained away since they trust you and whatever decision Shepard has made.

So Kelly and Joker are the only ones who might know of where Shepard's relationship with the VS stands or at least the only ones who bothered to pry. It's not as though I wanted or expected every character to ask, it's simply nice to reaffirm--to the game and to myself--that I am holding out for the long term. That I'm risking a possible happiness with someone for me now to reach out for the VS at some point in the unknown future.  

Hindsight affects my opinion a bit; knowing the ME2 love interests, I always plan accordingly. So I never start a romance with an ME1 love interest, knowing that I'll be pursuing an ME2 one. I don't even care whether it's cheating or not, I don't care to do it. Maybe making the choie to wait, hold onto hope, carry that torch seems particularly romantic to me.

Still, I see the VS situation as more of an open door. I don't think Ashley or Kaidan are expecting (maybe hoping, but not expecting) Shepard to come back, rather giving him/her the opportunity to start over; letting him/her know they have not been completely shut out. Things in each email, particularly Ash's, "But I’m not who I was then, and neither are you," say to me that things are at a standstill.  She's earnest and passionate; she's not going to pretend she doesn't care anymore, but she's aware of all the craziness and want to be as professional as possible.

The ball is being put in Shepard's court, and every Shepard is going to make different decisions on what play to make next. Really, the fact that I have the choice to take it or not makes it all the more satisfying. That I could play this tough, hardened and cynical man who clings to a shred of hope in a heart that few even knows he has, while other Shepards move on, fool around, or even stay single throughout, makes that playthrough all the more special.

In regards to the original post, I applaude your effort. I thank you for acknowledging that the arc can be used in a friendly path as well, since I have multiple Shepards and like to consider the VS as a close friend, whicever one it is.

Modifié par LessThanKate, 06 janvier 2012 - 08:13 .

[Iakus]

In general, I agree that this was the intention.  However, the way it was pulled off in ME2 was a huge failure.  The confrontation came across as less a "complication" and more a "DM Fiat"  It was too brief, too acerbic,  Neither side really gets a chance to lay out their feelings.

"Cerberus is bad!  Grr!"

"Dur, Cerberus is good this time!"

is about as far as it goes.

Now if the VS (or others, like the Council) revealed to Shepard  that TIM implicated Shep in certain Cerberus atrocities, gave us a more concrete reason to understand why the VS would have reason to distrust Shepard, (aside from "OMG Cerberus!") then yeah, I could see it as more of a second act complication.

This is made even more manifest when you meet people who have just as much reason to trust Shepard and distrust Cerberus treat Shep much better.  Tali,  Garrus, Anderson, Hackett.  

(A side comment: remember, the VS doesn't actually dump you, or humiliate you, or do many of the terrible things
they have been accused of doing by the fandom. However, the frustration we get from that part of the story heightens our emotions to the point that for us, they might as well have done such things. That sensation is the purpose of the Setback event of the three-act structure, essentially. And like the rest of stories based on that template, it's there to grab and shake the audience, to make us more personally affected by the characters, and to help make the final resolution of the story that much more satisfying. Conflict is the soul of drama, after all. It should also be noted that by the end of the story, when we have the full picture of it, the impression we have of the Setback usually changes quite a bit from the one we get the first time we see it. This happens quite frequently with stories based on the three-act structure, and a tweet from Mac Walters hints that it might be the case here.)

The VS outright accuses Shepard of betrayal, both on a professional and personal level.  And questions his/her loyalties.  Those are pretty terrible things to say.  Especially to someone in the military.  Again, we as the player have no reason to understand this aside from "Cerberus!  Grr!"  What has Shepard done, or what has the VS think Shepard has done, to warrant such a reaction?  Given Shepard (and the VS's) past in taking extreme actions to thwart the Reapers, something more than "guilt by association" would have been appropriate (they did steal the Normandy together, after all).  In particular with paragon Shepards.

If there's some kind of twist or payoff in ME3, I am very curious to see how that goes.  It will have to be truly awe-inspiring to make up for the faiure of Horizon, imo.  The whole situation smacked too much of shoving the VS away rather than simply straining the relkationship

I've seen the spoilers for the ME3 romances.  They look good on paper, at least.  But then, I'm sure Horizon looked good on paper too.  And to me it was a crushing failure. OPne of the primary reasons why I haven't replayed ME2 much.