102 réponses à ce sujet

[Kiminaroja]

Very well written and a highly recommended read. It really gets me excited to see how my romance with Kaidan comes to an end. I have one loyal Ash romance so I guess I'm a little interested in that too. I do hope that there will be a bit of conflict between ME1 romances and the ones that Shepard cheated on them with in ME2.

[Luci The Great]

here is a question, what if you " cheated" [ for lack of a better word] on a ME1 LI and the Person you cheated with died on the sucide mission? I'm currous to hear peoples thoughts about that.

[CptData]

Luci The Great wrote...

here is a question, what if you " cheated" [ for lack of a better word] on a ME1 LI and the Person you cheated with died on the sucide mission? I'm currous to hear peoples thoughts about that.

I heard it's at least part of your dialogue later - means - you -had- that romance and it's considered as one.
Maybe Ashley/Kaidan/Liara will adress this and may ask you if it was a real thing to you or not. Who knows.
Other ideas here?

[Gorosaur]

This is an impressive read and reinforces what I've been saying about the VS for a while now.

To be honest I've grown really guilty about cheating on Ashley with Tali. It felt like a break, and Tali and I were close and it was hard to resist. I really hope ME3 does something with this potential love triangle, because it would be a delightfully uncomfortable scenario to be in for a game.

[TheLastThought]

CptData wrote...

One last thing: again PS3-players get bitten in the ass: since they don't have ME1, they can't start the romance arcs for VS or Liara. Those characters are pretty much meaningless to them and the shortenend romance arc in ME3 won't be the same as the full romance arc that spans all three parts of that trilogy.
I hope for those fans ME1 will be released for PS3 too - or that they go for the 360- or PC-version of the trilogy.

Actually that's not true. At the beginnig of ME2 on PS3 you can choose who you romanced in ME1 between Liara and Kaidan/Ashley ( it's in the famous comic with all other ME1 important choices), or if you stayed chaste.  I played ME1 and ME2 both on PC but I also bought ME2 for PS3 because I think  the comic is pretty useful considering that you can build a new full profile of Shepard playing only ME2.. For someone like me who want to see everything ME3 has to offer that's really a gift. ( and I have more fun playing with PS3 , so I think I'll buy ME3 for PS3 only this time)

Modifié par TheLastThought, 07 janvier 2012 - 11:55 .

[gearseffect]

WOW Tropulous that was well written and well researched before being written, I'm in awe of your thoroughness, and I've often considered getting a degree in Journalism, and I do lots of analyzing of everything so this was a bit inspirational for me.  Anyway I'm in the process of replying ME1 and 2 to be prepared to have ready several completely different play troughs of ME3 and so this was a really good read for me.

Also the Romance Archs in ME really help to give it the mix of Hollwood Movie and Video Game cross evolution for the perfect story.
All great movies series have a romance subplot that run though 'em and it adds to it in my opinion.

Modifié par gearseffect, 08 janvier 2012 - 12:16 .

[CptData]

TheLastThought wrote...

Actually that's not true. At the beginnig of ME2 on PS3 you can choose who you romanced in ME1 between Liara and Kaidan/Ashley ( it's in the famous comic with all other ME1 important choices), or if you stayed chaste.  I played ME1 and ME2 both on PC but I also bought ME2 for PS3 because I think  the comic is pretty useful considering that you can build a new full profile of Shepard playing only ME2.. For someone like me who want to see everything ME3 has to offer that's really a gift. ( and I have more fun playing with PS3 , so I think I'll buy ME3 for PS3 only this time)

For those guys who never played ME1 it's not really the same. Other players like you did it on PC / 360 and know who Ash, Liara and Kaidan are. But others? It's not really the same.

Although I don't have a PS3, it kinda bugs me that a great deal of the fandom has no idea about the characters of the first ME. They have no connection to them - which is important imo.

Whatever, I shouldn't derail that thread

[Ashley_SR2]

I think I'm going to replay ME1 and ME2 this week so I'm fresh up on the story and dialogue. It's been ages!

[Tropulous]

TheLastThought wrote...

CptData wrote...

One last thing: again PS3-players get bitten in the ass: since they don't have ME1, they can't start the romance arcs for VS or Liara. Those characters are pretty much meaningless to them and the shortenend romance arc in ME3 won't be the same as the full romance arc that spans all three parts of that trilogy.
I hope for those fans ME1 will be released for PS3 too - or that they go for the 360- or PC-version of the trilogy.

Actually that's not true. At the beginnig of ME2 on PS3 you can choose who you romanced in ME1 between Liara and Kaidan/Ashley ( it's in the famous comic with all other ME1 important choices), or if you stayed chaste.  I played ME1 and ME2 both on PC but I also bought ME2 for PS3 because I think  the comic is pretty useful considering that you can build a new full profile of Shepard playing only ME2.. For someone like me who want to see everything ME3 has to offer that's really a gift. ( and I have more fun playing with PS3 , so I think I'll buy ME3 for PS3 only this time)

You can choose a LI in the comic, but by not playing ME1, you lack the entire Act 1 of their romance arc. It's not the same to slowly learn about the characters during the game, slowly building up the setup of the romance arc until the Inciting Incident that kickstarts the relationship, than being given a basic description of them and have that as the setup. It just doesn't have the same impact. I believe that's what CptData meant, basically.

Hm, perhaps I should have added this point to the analysis. Oh well.

Modifié par Tropulous, 08 janvier 2012 - 01:35 .

[Gold Dragon]

Nice Read.  Good Job!

[TheLastThought]

Tropulous wrote...

TheLastThought wrote...

CptData wrote...

One last thing: again PS3-players get bitten in the ass: since they don't have ME1, they can't start the romance arcs for VS or Liara. Those characters are pretty much meaningless to them and the shortenend romance arc in ME3 won't be the same as the full romance arc that spans all three parts of that trilogy.
I hope for those fans ME1 will be released for PS3 too - or that they go for the 360- or PC-version of the trilogy.

Actually that's not true. At the beginnig of ME2 on PS3 you can choose who you romanced in ME1 between Liara and Kaidan/Ashley ( it's in the famous comic with all other ME1 important choices), or if you stayed chaste.  I played ME1 and ME2 both on PC but I also bought ME2 for PS3 because I think  the comic is pretty useful considering that you can build a new full profile of Shepard playing only ME2.. For someone like me who want to see everything ME3 has to offer that's really a gift. ( and I have more fun playing with PS3 , so I think I'll buy ME3 for PS3 only this time)

You can choose a LI in the comic, but by not playing ME1, you lack the entire Act 1 of their romance arc. It's not the same to slowly learn about the characters during the game, slowly building up the setup of the romance arc until the Inciting Incident that kickstarts the relationship, than being given a basic description of them and have that as the setup. It just doesn't have the same impact. I believe that's what CptData meant, basically.

Hm, perhaps I should have added this point to the analysis. Oh well.

 
Well if you don't play ME1 you basically lack the Arc 1 of the whole mass effect trilogy so I think you got bigger problem then the romance building. What i ment is that you can "start" the romance trough the cominc so you'll se the full Act 3 in ME3 if you want to play that on PS3, never thought it was a good "substitute" of ME1, not by any chance.
And btw your analysis is perfect in my opinion, didn't have to add anything because if someone is happy with only the comic then it's not so much interested the VS romance i think.. It will be something the player lack, not the romance storyline.
And you have all my compliments for this beautiful work!

[gearseffect]

I've always felt sorry for gamers who never played ME1 before the 2nd or got the plot spoiled.
At the time I was in my Sr year of High School so I really didn't know much about the plot and who the true enemy would be.

When I played ME1 the first time I never paid any notice to the Reapers and the game did a great job making me forget about them and focus on Saren as the big threat and when I got to Virmire and came face to face with Sovereign and found out he was a Reaper it was the biggest plot twist in a game and It shocked me. I was still a bit blown away from it and mere minutes after that shock I got bigger gut punch and had to save somebody I'm not sure how it all played out my first time when I had to chose somebody but I ended up saving Kaidan who was with the STG squad.

So I've always felt a bit sorry for people who never got to experience these epic plot twists and jump on later.

Any hope I don't derail the thread

EDIT on a side note of romances and the ME games I've always thought this song goes perfect with them Doro Now or Never (Hope in the Darkest Hour) www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par gearseffect, 08 janvier 2012 - 03:45 .

[magic space chicken]

im i the only one who that finds it hard to pick to who to romance

[knightnblu]

Tropulous wrote - "...remember, the VS doesn't actually dump you, or humiliate you, or do many of the terrible things they have been accused of doing by the fandom."
 
Really? Funny, because I recall being branded a traitor by Williams on Horizon. In fact, she accused me of betraying the Alliance, Anderson, and her. That makes me a traitor both professionally (treason) and personally. I also recall her calling my intelligence into question by assuming that I was too stupid to know if Cerberus was using me like a tampon. Additionally, because of the two previous assertions, she essentially does to me what the Alliance did to her grandfather after Shanxi sans the irons.
 
Williams was an Alliance NCO who came from a military family where dear ol' grand pa got steam rolled because he did what he had to do. The fact that Williams then turns around to make the same accusations to Shepard is a bitter irony indeed and a tepid email apology won't fix that. One would think that General Williams' angst ridden grandchild would be cognizant of that given the pissing and moaning that she has done about it in the past, but that fact seems to have escaped her as well as the writers. Because I judge my commanders by how far I am willing to follow them into battle, I wouldn't follow Williams into the restroom precisely because of her actions on Horizon. If you ask me, she needs a mental evaluation to verify her stability.
 
Add in the fact that BioWare wrote a "one size fits all" dialog for Horizon that totally ignored the Paragon/Renegade scores of Shepard in ME1 (which were readily available by the way) and the character exposition of the VS (romanced Williams in particular) and made the VS neurotic to the point where they are done with you in less than 3.5 minutes after not seeing you for more than 2 years and you have the abortion on Horizon re-created. But that's what happens when you ignore continuity and common sense.

[ADLegend21]

knightnblu wrote...

Tropulous wrote - "...remember, the VS doesn't actually dump you, or humiliate you, or do many of the terrible things they have been accused of doing by the fandom."
 
Really? Funny, because I recall being branded a traitor by Williams on Horizon. In fact, she accused me of betraying the Alliance, Anderson, and her. That makes me a traitor both professionally (treason) and personally. I also recall her calling my intelligence into question by assuming that I was too stupid to know if Cerberus was using me like a tampon. Additionally, because of the two previous assertions, she essentially does to me what the Alliance did to her grandfather after Shanxi sans the irons.
 
Williams was an Alliance NCO who came from a military family where dear ol' grand pa got steam rolled because he did what he had to do. The fact that Williams then turns around to make the same accusations to Shepard is a bitter irony indeed and a tepid email apology won't fix that. One would think that General Williams' angst ridden grandchild would be cognizant of that given the pissing and moaning that she has done about it in the past, but that fact seems to have escaped her as well as the writers. Because I judge my commanders by how far I am willing to follow them into battle, I wouldn't follow Williams into the restroom precisely because of her actions on Horizon. If you ask me, she needs a mental evaluation to verify her stability.
 
Add in the fact that BioWare wrote a "one size fits all" dialog for Horizon that totally ignored the Paragon/Renegade scores of Shepard in ME1 (which were readily available by the way) and the character exposition of the VS (romanced Williams in particular) and made the VS neurotic to the point where they are done with you in less than 3.5 minutes after not seeing you for more than 2 years and you have the abortion on Horizon re-created. But that's what happens when you ignore continuity and common sense.

Right because every single person will believe you actually died, especially your girlfriend/boyfriend. There was no body, probably no funeral either, and yet here you are captaaining a cerberus ship, looking as healthy as you can be. You didn't return to the Alliance, you weren't reinstated, you didn't turn in your Cerberus crew for working with a terrorist iorganization. Hell half your crew left the alliance to join Cebrerus. You Are a traitor. The ASARI councilor, who's always been neutral when it comes to shepard v. turian councilor, even says you working for cerberus is TREASON. You work for the bad guys, not everoyne's gonna be all "well it's you so you must have a plan.

Ashley and Kaidan don't know what happened to you, you could HAVE that control chip Miranda mentioned and it could be puppeting you subtley to be reasonable about working with Cebreurs, especially if your shepard was on Akuze. If anyone needs a mental evaluation it's shepard. You calim to have died and come back to life, Suddenly one of your greatest enemies is who you're following,oh and let's not forget he race of sentient ships that are gonna kill us all, oh my so scary! You have yet to prove the existence of the reapers to anyone that hasn't served on the Normandy and the one person who did believe you got you to BLOW UP A MASS RELAY!

Before you go questioing the VS you better take a look at how retarded YOUR Shepard looks in their eyes for the thing they did in Mass Effect 2, because without being there working for Cerberus and blowing up a Mass Relay looks like you've officially lost it.

[knightnblu]

ADLegend21 wrote...

knightnblu wrote...

Tropulous wrote - "...remember, the VS doesn't actually dump you, or humiliate you, or do many of the terrible things they have been accused of doing by the fandom."
 
Really? Funny, because I recall being branded a traitor by Williams on Horizon. In fact, she accused me of betraying the Alliance, Anderson, and her. That makes me a traitor both professionally (treason) and personally. I also recall her calling my intelligence into question by assuming that I was too stupid to know if Cerberus was using me like a tampon. Additionally, because of the two previous assertions, she essentially does to me what the Alliance did to her grandfather after Shanxi sans the irons.
 
Williams was an Alliance NCO who came from a military family where dear ol' grand pa got steam rolled because he did what he had to do. The fact that Williams then turns around to make the same accusations to Shepard is a bitter irony indeed and a tepid email apology won't fix that. One would think that General Williams' angst ridden grandchild would be cognizant of that given the pissing and moaning that she has done about it in the past, but that fact seems to have escaped her as well as the writers. Because I judge my commanders by how far I am willing to follow them into battle, I wouldn't follow Williams into the restroom precisely because of her actions on Horizon. If you ask me, she needs a mental evaluation to verify her stability.
 
Add in the fact that BioWare wrote a "one size fits all" dialog for Horizon that totally ignored the Paragon/Renegade scores of Shepard in ME1 (which were readily available by the way) and the character exposition of the VS (romanced Williams in particular) and made the VS neurotic to the point where they are done with you in less than 3.5 minutes after not seeing you for more than 2 years and you have the abortion on Horizon re-created. But that's what happens when you ignore continuity and common sense.

Right because every single person will believe you actually died, especially your girlfriend/boyfriend. There was no body, probably no funeral either, and yet here you are captaaining a cerberus ship, looking as healthy as you can be. You didn't return to the Alliance, you weren't reinstated, you didn't turn in your Cerberus crew for working with a terrorist iorganization. Hell half your crew left the alliance to join Cebrerus. You Are a traitor. The ASARI councilor, who's always been neutral when it comes to shepard v. turian councilor, even says you working for cerberus is TREASON. You work for the bad guys, not everoyne's gonna be all "well it's you so you must have a plan.

Ashley and Kaidan don't know what happened to you, you could HAVE that control chip Miranda mentioned and it could be puppeting you subtley to be reasonable about working with Cebreurs, especially if your shepard was on Akuze. If anyone needs a mental evaluation it's shepard. You calim to have died and come back to life, Suddenly one of your greatest enemies is who you're following,oh and let's not forget he race of sentient ships that are gonna kill us all, oh my so scary! You have yet to prove the existence of the reapers to anyone that hasn't served on the Normandy and the one person who did believe you got you to BLOW UP A MASS RELAY!

Before you go questioing the VS you better take a look at how retarded YOUR Shepard looks in their eyes for the thing they did in Mass Effect 2, because without being there working for Cerberus and blowing up a Mass Relay looks like you've officially lost it.

You know, I seem to recall a comment by you on another thread that took the position that Williams was out of line. I believe that you questioned the need for such a thread when your own was wide open and available for discussing all points Williams. Shortly thereafter, a moderator shut down that thread citing your exact reasoning and directing all opinions to your thread. Coincidence?
 
I didn't want to post on your thread because of all of the drooling fan boys over there and the knee jerk reactions which you so ably demonstrated here. If I want to see hundreds of pages of Williams photos and obsequious obeisance to the Williams character I will go to your thread, I would appreciate it however if you would refrain from drooling over her on other threads because it tends to make the boards sloppy wet.

[ADLegend21]

knightnblu wrote...


You know, I seem to recall a comment by you on another thread that took the position that Williams was out of line. I believe that you questioned the need for such a thread when your own was wide open and available for discussing all points Williams. Shortly thereafter, a moderator shut down that thread citing your exact reasoning and directing all opinions to your thread. Coincidence?
 
I didn't want to post on your thread because of all of the drooling fan boys over there and the knee jerk reactions which you so ably demonstrated here. If I want to see hundreds of pages of Williams photos and obsequious obeisance to the Williams character I will go to your thread, I would appreciate it however if you would refrain from drooling over her on other threads because it tends to make the boards sloppy wet.

Your point? The ashley thread is for ashley discussion. For that same reason there is only ONE commander Shepard thread in this section rather than a maleshep and femshep thread. the Ashley support thread was there first so if it has more to do with overall Ashley discussion it goes there.

anyway back to the actual point, you seem to be drolling over your precious MAry sue....I mean Shepard thinking that they're immune to being an idiot because you control them.  just because YOU see nothing wrong with working with Cerberus (I don't either) doesn't mean that the perception of you is the same. you're traitor. You're a terroist. You betrayed the Alliance by working with Cerberus and you betrayed Ashley and Kaidan by not contacting them the first chance you get. They loved you before you died and you repay them by appearing to fake your death to work for the enemy that you fought in ME1. Instead of telling themin advanced that you're working to stop the collectors you show up after two years on a cerberus ship. you HAVE to see that that's incredibly weird for them since you're an alliance hero. You're not seeing how this look to everyone else which where you fail in your ommunication with your girlfriend/boyfriend.

[Tropulous]

Hey, please, calm down guys. We were doing so well

You know, when I said that the VS didn't do "many of the terrible things they have been accused of doing by the fandom", I meant the most extreme reactions of the fandom. You know, the kind of people who think that it would be in character for Ashley or Kaidan to murder in cold blood Shepard's new LI out of jealousy, or things like that. Because, you know, that is out of character. And there are people who think like that, in some corners of the Internet.

Yes, Ashley and Kaidan accuse Shepard of treason. Yes, that is a harsh accusation indeed. But are they right in doing so?

From our point of view? Well, we had sound reasons for working with Cerberus and no alternatives, so we did what we had to do. It's not really our fault, man! Why can't they see it?

From their point of view? Well, we don't know what their point of view is! We don't know what they've been doing during the two years Shepard was out, we don't know what they're doing currently, we know nothing about their position! What we do know, however, is that being missing for two years and then appear working for Cerberus does look kind of shady, from an outsider's point of view.

"But they overreacted! Garrus and Tali were outsiders too, and while they were suspicious of Cerberus at first, they trusted Shepard! Why can't the VS trust us too, instead of completely flipping out and storming off without stopping to listen?"

That is a good question indeed. But you see, Garrus and Tali knew more or less the same things we knew about Cerberus, so their reaction was similar to ours. Why do you think the VS knows the same about Cerberus, too? Remember, we don't know what has happened in their lives since we died. They were sent to Horizon to investigate Cerberus, right? Perhaps they know something more about Cerberus, something that made them react much more strongly? Perhaps they were told something that put Shepard in an incredibly bad light, and finding Shepard in Horizon confirmed what they had been told? We don't know; the narrative has hidden their point of view from us.

You know, these kind of twists have been done before. You've never been misled by the story to think one thing, only to turn out that what happened was completely different? Have you ever seen a character do something that looked incredibly retarded in Act 2, only for Act 3 to show the reasons behind their behaviour and "Holy crap, it all makes sense now, this character wasn't being retarded here"? Because I think that is what is going to happen here.

If you continue reading the paragraph that mentions the "many of the terrible things they have been accused of doing by the fandom", you'll find this:

It should also be noted that by the end of the story, when we have the full picture of it, the impression we have of the Setback usually changes quite a bit from the one we get the first time we see it. This happens quite frequently with stories based on the three-act structure, and a tweet from Mac Walters hints that it might be the case here.

If you read the tweet, it says this:

Many wondered why Liara was so distant in #ME2, then in LoTSB we found out why. Imagine what #ME3 might mean for Kaidan & Ash.

I could be way off here, but I think that their point of view will be explained in ME3. And I think that only in ME3 we will be able to accurately judge the reaction of the VS in Horizon. Until then, we really don't have enough information, which is why these kind of discussions have always been fruitless.

Modifié par Tropulous, 11 janvier 2012 - 12:05 .

[Slayer299]

OP - I can see you put a lot of time and work into that "3 Act Romance Arc" you feel that was Bioware's ultimate goal with Shep and the VS. I disagree with you on your analysis however, the "strain" you say we are supposed to see in the relationship in ME2 wasn't there, if in fact that was their (Bioware) goal it was a complete failure in my eyes. As the VS was too busy holding the Magic Idiot Ball (and Shep's dialogue to a lesser degree as well) to bring across a strain in their relationship that felt more like a hull breach.

[CptData]

Slayer299:
Can't concur here.

First of all the OP also mentions (either in the original post OR somewhere in this thread) Liara's LI follows the same trope, however a big part of the confrontation happens in LotSB and doesn't wait for ME3 while the VS-situation is still quite bleak. Shepard can decide for or against the VS. Shepard can ALSO decide for or against Liara, however it's much more difficult to understand and feels way more like cheating if s/he does after the events in LotSB.

The "magic idiot ball" is in Shepard's hands tbh. S/he is working for Cerberus. S/he is not contacting Anderson, the VS, whoever to clear things up. S/he is not talking to Anderson for support - like working as "double agent" for the Alliance or something. Overall, Shepard -IS- a traitor since s/he didn't go for another option to deal with the Collectors. Shepard did the same thing like Cerberus: the end justifies the means. Which is OOC for any paragon!Shepard and works only for a renegade one quite well. And even a renegade Shepard isn't too happy to work with Cerberus.

Actually, the VS acted far more understandable on Horizon than Shepard did for most parts of the entire game. And that's a "neutral" statement, not a statement by a VS-fan.

[Clara Shepard]

Tropulous wrote...
[long opening post]

I love you, if I wasn't already dedicated to the VS I would possible think of cheating on Kaidan for you.  But Kaidan is way too important so no :|  Really, really good analysis though! Loved it.

[Clara Shepard]

magic space chicken wrote...

im i the only one who that finds it hard to pick to who to romance

Kaidan.


Pick Kaidan.


Has a nice ass smile.  Sweet guy, is lovable, total hottie, can't miss it.  Once you go biotic, you never go back. 

[Slayer299]

CptData wrote...

Slayer299:
Can't concur here.

First of all the OP also mentions (either in the original post OR somewhere in this thread) Liara's LI follows the same trope, however a big part of the confrontation happens in LotSB and doesn't wait for ME3 while the VS-situation is still quite bleak. Shepard can decide for or against the VS. Shepard can ALSO decide for or against Liara, however it's much more difficult to understand and feels way more like cheating if s/he does after the events in LotSB.

i never said Liara's change in ME2 was any better and in fact I felt it made even "Less" sense than what happened on Horizon and LotSB just soothed feathers for Liara fans to be honest (although i do consider it a fun DLC to play). I agree with you that it allows a confrontation between the two.

The "magic idiot ball" is in Shepard's hands tbh. S/he is working for Cerberus. S/he is not contacting Anderson, the VS, whoever to clear things up. S/he is not talking to Anderson for support - like working as "double agent" for the Alliance or something. Overall, Shepard -IS- a traitor since s/he didn't go for another option to deal with the Collectors. Shepard did the same thing like Cerberus: the end justifies the means. Which is OOC for any paragon!Shepard and works only for a renegade one quite well. And even a renegade Shepard isn't too happy to work with Cerberus.

Of cours it was in Shep's hands as well, I neverf said otherwise and infact pointed that out. As for working for Timmy, you are never given an option "not" to, so throwing that up makes little if any sense. As you know, even if you don't want to work for TIM and immediately goto the Citadel after Freedom's Progress Shep is just SOL as far as choices other then Timmy go, that was just the bad writing on Bioware's part. The VS mentions rumours about Shep being alive/with Cerberus as one reason to be on Horizon, but the dialogue fails when confronted by Garrus over their not listening and this continues even if you have all alien teammates.
So I'll say again, the VS being shocked, angry, upset over seeing Shep and that they are with/working for/aligned/allied what ever works with Cerberus and their entire brain goes dead at that point, this after stating to Delenn that 'he is in the presence of a 'god' (which made no sense either.)


So I take issue with the whole "Traitor" accusations by the VS, in addition to the VS's refusal to stop and listen for 30 secs. (take note I'm not talking about the VS joining Shep or some such) And the shock/surprise is prefectly understandable for the VS, even some anger makes perfect sense.

Actually, the VS acted far more understandable on Horizon than Shepard did for most parts of the entire game. And that's a "neutral" statement, not a statement by a VS-fan.

I disagree with that completely, the VS was not being "understandable" by any definition of the word on Horizon. FYI - Neutrality on the subject of the VS isn't necessary to me (as I happen to be supporter of the VS, just not the idiot dialogue on Horizon), only a rational discussion.

[Tropulous]

Again? Didn't we go through this during the last 6-10 posts? Sometimes I get the feeling that some people start reading the analysis, find something they don't like, then jump to the quick reply without finishing to read the full text

You know, the romance arc following the three-act structure is not a theory of mine, nor speculation. Casey Hudson himself said that the ME1 romance arc follows it. I say it right in the opening paragraph of the OP, and the source for it is here. I'll even copypaste Casey's words:

Finally, if you are worried about the role of the ME1 love interest in the trilogy, consider that the romance itself is told across the trilogy, in 3 acts. Apply the 3-act concept to what's happening in your relationship with them, and you might guess where we're going with it.

Remember, kids: when someone tells you "we're following the three-act structure!" right before act two, that person is using writer-speak for "brace yourselves".

Slayer299 wrote...
So I take issue with the whole "Traitor" accusations by the VS, in addition to the VS's refusal to stop and listen for 30 secs. (take note I'm not talking about the VS joining Shep or some such) And the shock/surprise is prefectly understandable for the VS, even some anger makes perfect sense.

You know, it's kind of silly to quote myself on something that I said six posts ago, but it looks like I might have to do it:

Tropulous wrote...

Yes, Ashley and Kaidan accuse Shepard of treason. Yes, that is a harsh accusation indeed. But are they right in doing so?

From our point of view? Well, we had sound reasons for working with Cerberus and no alternatives, so we did what we had to do. It's not really our fault, man! Why can't they see it?

From their point of view? Well, we don't know what their point of view is! We don't know what they've been doing during the two years Shepard was out, we don't know what they're doing currently, we know nothing about their position! What we do know, however, is that being missing for two years and then appear working for Cerberus does look kind of shady, from an outsider's point of view.

"But they overreacted! Garrus and Tali were outsiders too, and while they were suspicious of Cerberus at first, they
trusted Shepard! Why can't the VS trust us too, instead of completely flipping out and storming off without stopping to listen?"

That is a good question indeed. But you see, Garrus and Tali knew more or less the same things we knew about Cerberus, so their reaction was similar to ours. Why do you think the VS knows the same about Cerberus, too? Remember, we don't know what has happened in their lives since we died. They were sent to Horizon to investigate Cerberus, right? Perhaps they know something more about Cerberus, something that made them react much more strongly? Perhaps they were told something that put Shepard in an incredibly bad light, and finding Shepard in Horizon confirmed what they had been told? We don't know; the narrative has hidden their point of view from us.

You know, these kind of twists have been done before. You've never been misled by the story to think one thing, only to turn out that what happened was completely different? Have you ever seen a character do something that looked incredibly retarded in Act 2, only for Act 3 to show the reasons behind their behaviour and "Holy crap, it all makes sense now, this character wasn't being retarded here"? Because I think that is what is going to happen here.

If you continue reading the paragraph that mentions the "many of the terrible things they have been accused of doing by the fandom", you'll find this:

It should also be noted that by the end of the story, when we have the full picture of it, the impression we have of the Setback usually changes quite a bit from the one we get the first time we see it. This happens quite frequently with stories based on the three-act structure, and a tweet from Mac Walters hints that it might be the case here.

If you read the tweet, it says this:

Many wondered why Liara was so distant in #ME2, then in LoTSB we found out why. Imagine what #ME3 might mean for Kaidan & Ash.

I could be way off here, but I think that their point of view will be explained in ME3. And I think that only in ME3 we will be able to accurately judge the reaction of the VS in Horizon. Until then, we really don't have enough information, which is why these kind of discussions have always been fruitless.

Modifié par Tropulous, 12 janvier 2012 - 02:33 .

[Slayer299]

I was answering CptData who had responded to my post, not you directly, but since you've replied.

Great, fine, CH said it was following a 3 act arc, my point is still that the VS held the Magic Idiot Ball longer than Shepard and the writing utterly FAILED (In my opinion) if it was BW's desire to show merely a strain in the relationship.

You had a very well thought out reasoning/analysis for the VS, I just do not agree with it.

Modifié par Slayer299, 13 janvier 2012 - 02:19 .