234 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

bussinrounds wrote...
Interesting.  I never heard that one.   My GM (back in the 80's) always conducted the game in a turn based matter, and i prefer that less chaotic and more controlled pace in CRPGs with full party control also, for reasons i stated earlier.

Your DM wasn't alone; an awful lot of games were run that way. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if a majority of AD&D campaigns were actually played turn-based rather than according to the book rules.

Personally, I prefer the chaos, or perhaps I should say I prefer mastering the chaos. Not terribly surprising, since like the original D&D designers I came to RPGs from wargaming.

      Have any of you guys seen the CRPG addicts blog ?   It's pretty cool.   Here's an entry by him (with comments) about real time vs turn based combat in RPGs 
          crpgaddict.blogspot.com/2011/06/turn-based-vs-real-time-combat.html  

    
Nice article. Note that a lot of what he talks about isn't related to turn-based per se, but is about D&D's resource-based gameplay.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Gatt9 wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Everything that can be said about BG2 has been said, but Skyrim? Wow - what a truly lavish and colourful world this game has painted for us, I feel like the Elder Scrolls universe/rules are being done justice by this work of art.

I am quite surprised to see people think Skyrim is a work of art. It's a bit too generic and bland compare to Morrowind.
But I do think Morrowind is truly a piece of art. There is so much love poured into creating every facet of
Vvardenfell and its history, mythology, literature, ecology,
architecture, cultures and more.

It's not a surprise,  there's 3 major groups that compose Bethesda fans...

1.  People who hate RPG's,  but claim they're RPGers for geek cred.  These are the people who played Magic the Gathering,  or hang out with the geek crowd at school,  Diablo fans,  incidental World of Warcraft fans,  who hear people talk about RPG's,  but have never actually opened a book or played a PnP game.  They want to be RPG players too,  but they hate the mechanics.  This is Bethesda's target market,  they make RPGs for people who hate RPGs.

Easiest way to identify:  Their posts wil be littered with the words "Purist",  they'll insist "Games with (insert mechanic) can't selll anymore!",  they won't know anything about RPG mechanics when cornered.

Caution:  They'll also confuse Roleplaying with Roleplaying Game,  not realizing there's a difference,  and can be mistaken for a LARPser.

2.  LARPsers.  These are the people running around the woods with plastic shields and swords yelling "Lightning bolt,  Lightning bolt" on the weekends.  They've always been a fringe of the RPG genre,  and have always been trying to covert RPGs to LARPs.  They don't want to play a game,  they want to live it.  These people run the gamut from insisting everyone speak in Olde English to people who will quite literally spend 8 hours a day,  every day,  pretending they are a gate guard in Oblivion (Yes,  some people did do this).  They will make every effort to sound like they are championing the "Modern RPG" without telling you what they want is a Computer LARPs,  and will very quickly take advantage of Group 1's lack of knowledge about RPG's.  There will be no more than 2 or 3 of these on any given board,  primarily because they are such a tiny niche that you'd find less than a dozen of them on a large college campus.

Easiest way to identify:  They will dismiss RPG mechanics as unnecessary and continually use the word "Roleplaying",  they will steadfastly ignore the fact that the game does not respond to their "Roleplaying" and that it's all in their heads,  they will be highly prolific posters.  They will also attack relentlessly anyone with any knowledge of RPG systems until they drive them out,  because they know the RPGer will out them as a LARPSer and they won't be able to manipulate Group 1 anymore.

Fun fact:  LARPSers share many key traits with Weeaboo's.  Primarily they have a strange vision of what their fantasy world is like.  They think a medival world is filled with people who look like celebrities.  If you're feeling sadistic,  tell them what medival hygiene was really like,  and if you want to see them mentally scarred,  explain to them what the line from 300 "I'd have her scent upon me still!" actually meant.

Caution:  Do not confuse LARPSers with Cosplayers.  Cosplayers are putting on a costume for fun,  LARPSers actually insist they've become whatever they are dressed up as.

Extra Caution:  Whatever you do,  if you see a LARPSer or are sadly stuck in a game with one,  do NOT do anything they would consider immersion breaking.  While playing SWGs,  I saw a LARPSer click ok when someone offered to teach them a language,  and then burst into a 20 minute temper tantrum because his screen was showing translated wookie,  he had to be banned before it stopped.

3.  Teens and Kids - They're playing Bethesda games because they can join the Dark Brotherhood,  or to be a Vampire.  Most of the time,  they have no idea what an RPG is,  they're playing the game to be an assassin.  Or a Vampire.  Ideally a Vampire Assassin.  They'll insist that the Bethesda game is the greatest game ever made,  and it's a revolution in gaming,  not realizing it's the same thing as the last 4 or 5 games. 

Easiest way to identify:  They'll use some keyword out of a Press Release as if it has meaning,  on Bethesda boards,  it's "Immersive!".  Anything a developer says is absolutely undeniably 100% the truth.  They'll dismiss RPG mechanics as "Old and outdated",  and often make the cardinal mistake of claiming "That was because there wasn't technology!".

Fun fact:  Boys under 18 years of age make up only 13% of gamers,  they think they're a majority,  they're actually a minority.  Google average age of gamer,  and go to the IDSA link.

That's Bethesda's market in a nutshell.  That's how you end up with "It's a work of art!",  groups two and three.

Interesting. I never heard that one. My GM (back in the 80's) always conducted the game in a turn based matter, and i prefer that less chaotic and more controlled pace in CRPGs with full party control also, for reasons i stated earlier.

Have any of you guys seen the CRPG addicts blog ? It's pretty cool. Here's an entry by him (with comments) about real time vs turn based combat in RPGs

AlanC9's right,  it's just that the earlier editions were a bit vague about how it was supposed to work,  and many DM's just did it turn based because as AlanC9 says,  the books didn't make it clear how to handle invalid actions.  So many just converted it to full turn-based instead of simultaneous turns.

The conversion happened later because,  as CRPG's became prevelant,  the need for turn based became a priority.  Because the secret is:  Real Time IS Turn Based,  there's just no pause and everyone has their own turn.  It's the way computers work,  they're sequential in nature,  and any entity in a game is proceeding through a series of steps just as they would in turn based.  Unlike a person,  a computer cannot halt an action unless the programmer specified the action could be halted at that moment.

ME2 displays this more readily than most,  watch the AI,  it's a obvious sequence.  Stand -> Shoot for X seconds -> Crouch -> wait for X seconds -> Repeat.

Real time is turn based without the pause when everyone's taken their turn in a specified period of time.

Gatt wins this thread!

[Storm Farron]

Gatt9 wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Everything that can be said about BG2 has been said, but Skyrim? Wow - what a truly lavish and colourful world this game has painted for us, I feel like the Elder Scrolls universe/rules are being done justice by this work of art.

I am quite surprised to see people think Skyrim is a work of art. It's a bit too generic and bland compare to Morrowind.
But I do think Morrowind is truly a piece of art. There is so much love poured into creating every facet of
Vvardenfell and its history, mythology, literature, ecology,
architecture, cultures and more.

It's not a surprise,  there's 3 major groups that compose Bethesda fans...

1.  People who hate RPG's,  but claim they're RPGers for geek cred.  These are the people who played Magic the Gathering,  or hang out with the geek crowd at school,  Diablo fans,  incidental World of Warcraft fans,  who hear people talk about RPG's,  but have never actually opened a book or played a PnP game.  They want to be RPG players too,  but they hate the mechanics.  This is Bethesda's target market,  they make RPGs for people who hate RPGs.

Easiest way to identify:  Their posts wil be littered with the words "Purist",  they'll insist "Games with (insert mechanic) can't selll anymore!",  they won't know anything about RPG mechanics when cornered.

Caution:  They'll also confuse Roleplaying with Roleplaying Game,  not realizing there's a difference,  and can be mistaken for a LARPser.

2.  LARPsers.  These are the people running around the woods with plastic shields and swords yelling "Lightning bolt,  Lightning bolt" on the weekends.  They've always been a fringe of the RPG genre,  and have always been trying to covert RPGs to LARPs.  They don't want to play a game,  they want to live it.  These people run the gamut from insisting everyone speak in Olde English to people who will quite literally spend 8 hours a day,  every day,  pretending they are a gate guard in Oblivion (Yes,  some people did do this).  They will make every effort to sound like they are championing the "Modern RPG" without telling you what they want is a Computer LARPs,  and will very quickly take advantage of Group 1's lack of knowledge about RPG's.  There will be no more than 2 or 3 of these on any given board,  primarily because they are such a tiny niche that you'd find less than a dozen of them on a large college campus.

Easiest way to identify:  They will dismiss RPG mechanics as unnecessary and continually use the word "Roleplaying",  they will steadfastly ignore the fact that the game does not respond to their "Roleplaying" and that it's all in their heads,  they will be highly prolific posters.  They will also attack relentlessly anyone with any knowledge of RPG systems until they drive them out,  because they know the RPGer will out them as a LARPSer and they won't be able to manipulate Group 1 anymore.

Fun fact:  LARPSers share many key traits with Weeaboo's.  Primarily they have a strange vision of what their fantasy world is like.  They think a medival world is filled with people who look like celebrities.  If you're feeling sadistic,  tell them what medival hygiene was really like,  and if you want to see them mentally scarred,  explain to them what the line from 300 "I'd have her scent upon me still!" actually meant.

Caution:  Do not confuse LARPSers with Cosplayers.  Cosplayers are putting on a costume for fun,  LARPSers actually insist they've become whatever they are dressed up as.

Extra Caution:  Whatever you do,  if you see a LARPSer or are sadly stuck in a game with one,  do NOT do anything they would consider immersion breaking.  While playing SWGs,  I saw a LARPSer click ok when someone offered to teach them a language,  and then burst into a 20 minute temper tantrum because his screen was showing translated wookie,  he had to be banned before it stopped.

3.  Teens and Kids - They're playing Bethesda games because they can join the Dark Brotherhood,  or to be a Vampire.  Most of the time,  they have no idea what an RPG is,  they're playing the game to be an assassin.  Or a Vampire.  Ideally a Vampire Assassin.  They'll insist that the Bethesda game is the greatest game ever made,  and it's a revolution in gaming,  not realizing it's the same thing as the last 4 or 5 games. 

Easiest way to identify:  They'll use some keyword out of a Press Release as if it has meaning,  on Bethesda boards,  it's "Immersive!".  Anything a developer says is absolutely undeniably 100% the truth.  They'll dismiss RPG mechanics as "Old and outdated",  and often make the cardinal mistake of claiming "That was because there wasn't technology!".

Fun fact:  Boys under 18 years of age make up only 13% of gamers,  they think they're a majority,  they're actually a minority.  Google average age of gamer,  and go to the IDSA link.

That's Bethesda's market in a nutshell.  That's how you end up with "It's a work of art!",  groups two and three.

Interesting. I never heard that one. My GM (back in the 80's) always conducted the game in a turn based matter, and i prefer that less chaotic and more controlled pace in CRPGs with full party control also, for reasons i stated earlier.

Have any of you guys seen the CRPG addicts blog ? It's pretty cool. Here's an entry by him (with comments) about real time vs turn based combat in RPGs

AlanC9's right,  it's just that the earlier editions were a bit vague about how it was supposed to work,  and many DM's just did it turn based because as AlanC9 says,  the books didn't make it clear how to handle invalid actions.  So many just converted it to full turn-based instead of simultaneous turns.

The conversion happened later because,  as CRPG's became prevelant,  the need for turn based became a priority.  Because the secret is:  Real Time IS Turn Based,  there's just no pause and everyone has their own turn.  It's the way computers work,  they're sequential in nature,  and any entity in a game is proceeding through a series of steps just as they would in turn based.  Unlike a person,  a computer cannot halt an action unless the programmer specified the action could be halted at that moment.

ME2 displays this more readily than most,  watch the AI,  it's a obvious sequence.  Stand -> Shoot for X seconds -> Crouch -> wait for X seconds -> Repeat.

Real time is turn based without the pause when everyone's taken their turn in a specified period of time.

WINNING!!!!!

[Gotholhorakh]

Gatt9 wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Everything that can be said about BG2 has been said, but Skyrim? Wow - what a truly lavish and colourful world this game has painted for us, I feel like the Elder Scrolls universe/rules are being done justice by this work of art.

I am quite surprised to see people think Skyrim is a work of art. It's a bit too generic and bland compare to Morrowind.
But I do think Morrowind is truly a piece of art. There is so much love poured into creating every facet of
Vvardenfell and its history, mythology, literature, ecology,
architecture, cultures and more.

It's not a surprise,  there's 3 major groups that compose Bethesda fans...

1.  People who hate RPG's,  but claim they're RPGers for geek cred.  These are the people who played Magic the Gathering,  or hang out with the geek crowd at school,  Diablo fans,  incidental World of Warcraft fans,  who hear people talk about RPG's,  but have never actually opened a book or played a PnP game.  They want to be RPG players too,  but they hate the mechanics.  This is Bethesda's target market,  they make RPGs for people who hate RPGs.

Easiest way to identify:  Their posts wil be littered with the words "Purist",  they'll insist "Games with (insert mechanic) can't selll anymore!",  they won't know anything about RPG mechanics when cornered.

Caution:  They'll also confuse Roleplaying with Roleplaying Game,  not realizing there's a difference,  and can be mistaken for a LARPser.

2.  LARPsers.  These are the people running around the woods with plastic shields and swords yelling "Lightning bolt,  Lightning bolt" on the weekends.  They've always been a fringe of the RPG genre,  and have always been trying to covert RPGs to LARPs.  They don't want to play a game,  they want to live it.  These people run the gamut from insisting everyone speak in Olde English to people who will quite literally spend 8 hours a day,  every day,  pretending they are a gate guard in Oblivion (Yes,  some people did do this).  They will make every effort to sound like they are championing the "Modern RPG" without telling you what they want is a Computer LARPs,  and will very quickly take advantage of Group 1's lack of knowledge about RPG's.  There will be no more than 2 or 3 of these on any given board,  primarily because they are such a tiny niche that you'd find less than a dozen of them on a large college campus.

Easiest way to identify:  They will dismiss RPG mechanics as unnecessary and continually use the word "Roleplaying",  they will steadfastly ignore the fact that the game does not respond to their "Roleplaying" and that it's all in their heads,  they will be highly prolific posters.  They will also attack relentlessly anyone with any knowledge of RPG systems until they drive them out,  because they know the RPGer will out them as a LARPSer and they won't be able to manipulate Group 1 anymore.

Fun fact:  LARPSers share many key traits with Weeaboo's.  Primarily they have a strange vision of what their fantasy world is like.  They think a medival world is filled with people who look like celebrities.  If you're feeling sadistic,  tell them what medival hygiene was really like,  and if you want to see them mentally scarred,  explain to them what the line from 300 "I'd have her scent upon me still!" actually meant.

Caution:  Do not confuse LARPSers with Cosplayers.  Cosplayers are putting on a costume for fun,  LARPSers actually insist they've become whatever they are dressed up as.

Extra Caution:  Whatever you do,  if you see a LARPSer or are sadly stuck in a game with one,  do NOT do anything they would consider immersion breaking.  While playing SWGs,  I saw a LARPSer click ok when someone offered to teach them a language,  and then burst into a 20 minute temper tantrum because his screen was showing translated wookie,  he had to be banned before it stopped.

3.  Teens and Kids - They're playing Bethesda games because they can join the Dark Brotherhood,  or to be a Vampire.  Most of the time,  they have no idea what an RPG is,  they're playing the game to be an assassin.  Or a Vampire.  Ideally a Vampire Assassin.  They'll insist that the Bethesda game is the greatest game ever made,  and it's a revolution in gaming,  not realizing it's the same thing as the last 4 or 5 games. 

Easiest way to identify:  They'll use some keyword out of a Press Release as if it has meaning,  on Bethesda boards,  it's "Immersive!".  Anything a developer says is absolutely undeniably 100% the truth.  They'll dismiss RPG mechanics as "Old and outdated",  and often make the cardinal mistake of claiming "That was because there wasn't technology!".

Fun fact:  Boys under 18 years of age make up only 13% of gamers,  they think they're a majority,  they're actually a minority.  Google average age of gamer,  and go to the IDSA link.

That's Bethesda's market in a nutshell.  That's how you end up with "It's a work of art!",  groups two and three.

Wow, what a load of complete bollocks. Thanks for characterising me (it was my phrase) as some sort of idiot/lunatic/child. A couple of points:

1: "People who hate RPG's,  but claim they're RPGers for geek cred."

I'm not sure what pretending to like RPGs for the geek cred means, but I think you may be projecting some infantile mindset of your own imagining onto millions of other people for enjoying a video game. Perhaps it's actually your own mindset - I don't know, I just never would have considered the possibility of pretending to like stuff to impress people... that seems kind of... pathetic.

Anyway, I'm sure you think you understand what Real Men's RPGs are and the rest of us are all idiots, but the quite different reality is that plenty of people (like me) can understand the hell out of what you call "RPG mechanics", still like TES, and can enjoy it while comprehending its shortcomings. In fact, many intelligent people can enjoy an RPG despite its shortcomings, which is pretty much necessary for all RPGs and systems ever unless you're a complete moron.

This "everyone with a different opinion/taste to me is an idiot" attitude is puerile and lacks insight - I'd love to disabuse you of this childish delusion but I CBA. I expect life will do that at some point - Knowing
that Other Intelligent People May Have Different Opinions and Tastes seems to be a skill dependent on Wis.




2: LARPers.

Nope, I don't fit into this category either.

You seem to wheel out the "RPers are tragic worthless lunatics", "people don't understand the difference between RPG and RP" and "this isn't a proper RPG game" tropes in a circular fashion here.

What a novel method you have of criticising other people. A sort of prolonged spasm of self-contradiction. Grats.



3: Teens and Kids

Derision, because all intelligent people who play Real Men's RPGs agree with you and definitely aren't teenagers or anything, right?


I think your diatribe tells us less about "the sort of person who plays Bethesda games" than the limited, fallacious "everyone who does X is an idiot" thinking you haven't developed past (I hope there should be a "yet" in this sentence, for your sake).

How rude.

Anyway, since you seem to lack understanding of why I have called Skyrim a work of art (I can't speak for others) I'll furnish you with a quick explanation - which is far more than your demeanour deserves, to be honest.

Skyrim has clearly been laboured carefully over at great length by programmers, designers, writers and other artists of various kinds to realise a vision, and produce an experience that human beings can have, and in my opinion it has done so to great effect, resulting in a rich, well-constructed, enjoyable and yes immersive experience. The artists have also stayed true to their own vision in varius places, rather than simply chopping out what they think the lowest common denominator does not want at every stage(not that it escape this entirely, no modern games do, obviously). I think it vies with Morrowind for their best game, although it is good for different reasons that fall into the category of "art". Its production values and craftpersonship shine through, and I personally have found the whole thing compulsive.

I would set no higher benchmark for a book, album or a film before I used this phrase, so it's a fair label. It is a work of art.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 09 janvier 2012 - 11:59 .

[bussinrounds]

Isn't it LARPers ? What's with the extra S?

"Real time is turn based without the pause when everyone's taken their turn in a specified period of time."


I know everyone was on their own specific 6 second turns, but the advantages of having a TURN-based system are thrown out when turns become simultaneous.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 09 janvier 2012 - 10:49 .

[SOLID_EVEREST]

Jeez, Gatt9, keep fighting the good fight. I wish that we could go back to the genius of oldschool CRPG games, but the market has been overrun by the people you just explained. Man, you are going to get flamed bad . Hey, at least we still have Age of Decadence and Dead State to look forward to.

[s17tabris]

favorites: Baldur's Gate 2, Vampire: the Masquerade - Bloodlines. FO: New Vegas would have been included if it had not crashed every half hour or so.

hated: well, not really hate... more like, meh: Neverwinter Nights

Modifié par arr0whead, 09 janvier 2012 - 01:07 .

[HoonDing]

Gatt9 wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Everything that can be said about BG2 has been said, but Skyrim? Wow - what a truly lavish and colourful world this game has painted for us, I feel like the Elder Scrolls universe/rules are being done justice by this work of art.

I am quite surprised to see people think Skyrim is a work of art. It's a bit too generic and bland compare to Morrowind.
But I do think Morrowind is truly a piece of art. There is so much love poured into creating every facet of
Vvardenfell and its history, mythology, literature, ecology,
architecture, cultures and more.

It's not a surprise,  there's 3 major groups that compose Bethesda fans...

1.  People who hate RPG's,  but claim they're RPGers for geek cred.  These are the people who played Magic the Gathering,  or hang out with the geek crowd at school,  Diablo fans,  incidental World of Warcraft fans,  who hear people talk about RPG's,  but have never actually opened a book or played a PnP game.  They want to be RPG players too,  but they hate the mechanics.  This is Bethesda's target market,  they make RPGs for people who hate RPGs.

Easiest way to identify:  Their posts wil be littered with the words "Purist",  they'll insist "Games with (insert mechanic) can't selll anymore!",  they won't know anything about RPG mechanics when cornered.

Caution:  They'll also confuse Roleplaying with Roleplaying Game,  not realizing there's a difference,  and can be mistaken for a LARPser.

2.  LARPsers.  These are the people running around the woods with plastic shields and swords yelling "Lightning bolt,  Lightning bolt" on the weekends.  They've always been a fringe of the RPG genre,  and have always been trying to covert RPGs to LARPs.  They don't want to play a game,  they want to live it.  These people run the gamut from insisting everyone speak in Olde English to people who will quite literally spend 8 hours a day,  every day,  pretending they are a gate guard in Oblivion (Yes,  some people did do this).  They will make every effort to sound like they are championing the "Modern RPG" without telling you what they want is a Computer LARPs,  and will very quickly take advantage of Group 1's lack of knowledge about RPG's.  There will be no more than 2 or 3 of these on any given board,  primarily because they are such a tiny niche that you'd find less than a dozen of them on a large college campus.

Easiest way to identify:  They will dismiss RPG mechanics as unnecessary and continually use the word "Roleplaying",  they will steadfastly ignore the fact that the game does not respond to their "Roleplaying" and that it's all in their heads,  they will be highly prolific posters.  They will also attack relentlessly anyone with any knowledge of RPG systems until they drive them out,  because they know the RPGer will out them as a LARPSer and they won't be able to manipulate Group 1 anymore.

Fun fact:  LARPSers share many key traits with Weeaboo's.  Primarily they have a strange vision of what their fantasy world is like.  They think a medival world is filled with people who look like celebrities.  If you're feeling sadistic,  tell them what medival hygiene was really like,  and if you want to see them mentally scarred,  explain to them what the line from 300 "I'd have her scent upon me still!" actually meant.

Caution:  Do not confuse LARPSers with Cosplayers.  Cosplayers are putting on a costume for fun,  LARPSers actually insist they've become whatever they are dressed up as.

Extra Caution:  Whatever you do,  if you see a LARPSer or are sadly stuck in a game with one,  do NOT do anything they would consider immersion breaking.  While playing SWGs,  I saw a LARPSer click ok when someone offered to teach them a language,  and then burst into a 20 minute temper tantrum because his screen was showing translated wookie,  he had to be banned before it stopped.

3.  Teens and Kids - They're playing Bethesda games because they can join the Dark Brotherhood,  or to be a Vampire.  Most of the time,  they have no idea what an RPG is,  they're playing the game to be an assassin.  Or a Vampire.  Ideally a Vampire Assassin.  They'll insist that the Bethesda game is the greatest game ever made,  and it's a revolution in gaming,  not realizing it's the same thing as the last 4 or 5 games. 

Easiest way to identify:  They'll use some keyword out of a Press Release as if it has meaning,  on Bethesda boards,  it's "Immersive!".  Anything a developer says is absolutely undeniably 100% the truth.  They'll dismiss RPG mechanics as "Old and outdated",  and often make the cardinal mistake of claiming "That was because there wasn't technology!".

Fun fact:  Boys under 18 years of age make up only 13% of gamers,  they think they're a majority,  they're actually a minority.  Google average age of gamer,  and go to the IDSA link.

That's Bethesda's market in a nutshell.  That's how you end up with "It's a work of art!",  groups two and three.

Interesting. I never heard that one. My GM (back in the 80's) always conducted the game in a turn based matter, and i prefer that less chaotic and more controlled pace in CRPGs with full party control also, for reasons i stated earlier.

Have any of you guys seen the CRPG addicts blog ? It's pretty cool. Here's an entry by him (with comments) about real time vs turn based combat in RPGs

AlanC9's right,  it's just that the earlier editions were a bit vague about how it was supposed to work,  and many DM's just did it turn based because as AlanC9 says,  the books didn't make it clear how to handle invalid actions.  So many just converted it to full turn-based instead of simultaneous turns.

The conversion happened later because,  as CRPG's became prevelant,  the need for turn based became a priority.  Because the secret is:  Real Time IS Turn Based,  there's just no pause and everyone has their own turn.  It's the way computers work,  they're sequential in nature,  and any entity in a game is proceeding through a series of steps just as they would in turn based.  Unlike a person,  a computer cannot halt an action unless the programmer specified the action could be halted at that moment.

ME2 displays this more readily than most,  watch the AI,  it's a obvious sequence.  Stand -> Shoot for X seconds -> Crouch -> wait for X seconds -> Repeat.

Real time is turn based without the pause when everyone's taken their turn in a specified period of time.

[Elhanan]

I feel a little sad for those that came away with dislike for NWN1, because I am guessing they omly played the OC. When able to play the huge volume of mods, stroll around in a well made PW, or play in a weekly campaign, this is where the game truly was able to shine. Plus I really enjoyed the Expansions, and several of the DLC.

As for the flaws, Atari is still on the record as a major reason for many of them.

Modifié par Elhanan, 09 janvier 2012 - 05:16 .

[Hakwam]

Favorite: Either Mass Effect or Fallout/Fallout 2
Hated: Fallout 3
I know that most people love Bethesda and that game, but they really dropped the ball making a good fallout game. Instead of a real Fallout, we got oblivion with guns, with bad story, terrible FPS/TPS and a very easy game nothing to do with survival in the wastes since after lvl 5 you were invincible. The game was obviously made to appeal to more casual crowd, and Bethesda even said that they will not make a game that does not suit them, showing that they are afraid of change.

[THEPURPLEVAGRANT]

favorite:KOTOR or Mass Effect 2

least favorite:The Witcher 2, Baldurs Gate (do not get all the hype about that game, its really awful, maybe it was great back in 1998 but its aged terribly)

[Jonp382]

Hakwam wrote...

and a very easy game nothing to do with survival in the wastes since after lvl 5 you were invincible

The original Fallout didn't really have anything to do with survival in the wastes either.

[THEPURPLEVAGRANT]

Gatt9 wrote...

suntzuxi wrote...

Gotholhorakh wrote...

Everything that can be said about BG2 has been said, but Skyrim? Wow - what a truly lavish and colourful world this game has painted for us, I feel like the Elder Scrolls universe/rules are being done justice by this work of art.

I am quite surprised to see people think Skyrim is a work of art. It's a bit too generic and bland compare to Morrowind.
But I do think Morrowind is truly a piece of art. There is so much love poured into creating every facet of
Vvardenfell and its history, mythology, literature, ecology,
architecture, cultures and more.

It's not a surprise,  there's 3 major groups that compose Bethesda fans...

1.  People who hate RPG's,  but claim they're RPGers for geek cred.  These are the people who played Magic the Gathering,  or hang out with the geek crowd at school,  Diablo fans,  incidental World of Warcraft fans,  who hear people talk about RPG's,  but have never actually opened a book or played a PnP game.  They want to be RPG players too,  but they hate the mechanics.  This is Bethesda's target market,  they make RPGs for people who hate RPGs.

Easiest way to identify:  Their posts wil be littered with the words "Purist",  they'll insist "Games with (insert mechanic) can't selll anymore!",  they won't know anything about RPG mechanics when cornered.

Caution:  They'll also confuse Roleplaying with Roleplaying Game,  not realizing there's a difference,  and can be mistaken for a LARPser.

2.  LARPsers.  These are the people running around the woods with plastic shields and swords yelling "Lightning bolt,  Lightning bolt" on the weekends.  They've always been a fringe of the RPG genre,  and have always been trying to covert RPGs to LARPs.  They don't want to play a game,  they want to live it.  These people run the gamut from insisting everyone speak in Olde English to people who will quite literally spend 8 hours a day,  every day,  pretending they are a gate guard in Oblivion (Yes,  some people did do this).  They will make every effort to sound like they are championing the "Modern RPG" without telling you what they want is a Computer LARPs,  and will very quickly take advantage of Group 1's lack of knowledge about RPG's.  There will be no more than 2 or 3 of these on any given board,  primarily because they are such a tiny niche that you'd find less than a dozen of them on a large college campus.

Easiest way to identify:  They will dismiss RPG mechanics as unnecessary and continually use the word "Roleplaying",  they will steadfastly ignore the fact that the game does not respond to their "Roleplaying" and that it's all in their heads,  they will be highly prolific posters.  They will also attack relentlessly anyone with any knowledge of RPG systems until they drive them out,  because they know the RPGer will out them as a LARPSer and they won't be able to manipulate Group 1 anymore.

Fun fact:  LARPSers share many key traits with Weeaboo's.  Primarily they have a strange vision of what their fantasy world is like.  They think a medival world is filled with people who look like celebrities.  If you're feeling sadistic,  tell them what medival hygiene was really like,  and if you want to see them mentally scarred,  explain to them what the line from 300 "I'd have her scent upon me still!" actually meant.

Caution:  Do not confuse LARPSers with Cosplayers.  Cosplayers are putting on a costume for fun,  LARPSers actually insist they've become whatever they are dressed up as.

Extra Caution:  Whatever you do,  if you see a LARPSer or are sadly stuck in a game with one,  do NOT do anything they would consider immersion breaking.  While playing SWGs,  I saw a LARPSer click ok when someone offered to teach them a language,  and then burst into a 20 minute temper tantrum because his screen was showing translated wookie,  he had to be banned before it stopped.

3.  Teens and Kids - They're playing Bethesda games because they can join the Dark Brotherhood,  or to be a Vampire.  Most of the time,  they have no idea what an RPG is,  they're playing the game to be an assassin.  Or a Vampire.  Ideally a Vampire Assassin.  They'll insist that the Bethesda game is the greatest game ever made,  and it's a revolution in gaming,  not realizing it's the same thing as the last 4 or 5 games. 

Easiest way to identify:  They'll use some keyword out of a Press Release as if it has meaning,  on Bethesda boards,  it's "Immersive!".  Anything a developer says is absolutely undeniably 100% the truth.  They'll dismiss RPG mechanics as "Old and outdated",  and often make the cardinal mistake of claiming "That was because there wasn't technology!".

Fun fact:  Boys under 18 years of age make up only 13% of gamers,  they think they're a majority,  they're actually a minority.  Google average age of gamer,  and go to the IDSA link.

That's Bethesda's market in a nutshell.  That's how you end up with "It's a work of art!",  groups two and three.

Interesting. I never heard that one. My GM (back in the 80's) always conducted the game in a turn based matter, and i prefer that less chaotic and more controlled pace in CRPGs with full party control also, for reasons i stated earlier.

Have any of you guys seen the CRPG addicts blog ? It's pretty cool. Here's an entry by him (with comments) about real time vs turn based combat in RPGs

AlanC9's right,  it's just that the earlier editions were a bit vague about how it was supposed to work,  and many DM's just did it turn based because as AlanC9 says,  the books didn't make it clear how to handle invalid actions.  So many just converted it to full turn-based instead of simultaneous turns.

The conversion happened later because,  as CRPG's became prevelant,  the need for turn based became a priority.  Because the secret is:  Real Time IS Turn Based,  there's just no pause and everyone has their own turn.  It's the way computers work,  they're sequential in nature,  and any entity in a game is proceeding through a series of steps just as they would in turn based.  Unlike a person,  a computer cannot halt an action unless the programmer specified the action could be halted at that moment.

ME2 displays this more readily than most,  watch the AI,  it's a obvious sequence.  Stand -> Shoot for X seconds -> Crouch -> wait for X seconds -> Repeat.

Real time is turn based without the pause when everyone's taken their turn in a specified period of time.

haha! you cant come up with an argument so you just ad hominem everyone who likes the game you dont like <_<

[Hakwam]

Jonp382 wrote...

Hakwam wrote...

and a very easy game nothing to do with survival in the wastes since after lvl 5 you were invincible

The original Fallout didn't really have anything to do with survival in the wastes either.

Well I guess that I worded this wrong. What I meant was that in Fallout 3, once you get to like lvl 5, if you want to you can go and kill everyone (except for invincible kids and story related character) since you're so tough. In FO1/FO2, you just coiuld't take out the Hub or other similar settlements since they had stronger security to protect the villagers. When I first arrived at the raider's camp in FO1, there was always a feeling of danger, as one wrong thing said and you're dead. In Fallout 3 raiders are way to easy to kill. Same goes to mutants imo. Don't get me wrong,it's a good game, just not a good "Fallout" game.

Modifié par Hakwam, 10 janvier 2012 - 08:00 .

[Andarthiel_Demigod]

Jedi Sentinel Arian wrote...

Shutting Oblivion Gates > Killing Dumb Dragons

Your Oblivion hating sickens me.

Are you kidding me? The Oblivion gates were one of the most tedious tasks in a game ever.
Dragons take skill and good aim (and are a tough challenge if you're below lvl 20)
I don't hate Oblivion but it did have some issues and stuff that just didn't work.

[shepskisaac]

Favourite - KOTOR 2
Most hated - Oblivion

[AlanC9]

So far it's Oblivion in a landslide.

[naughty99]

Gatt9 wrote...

2.  LARPsers.  These are the people running around the woods with plastic shields and swords yelling "Lightning bolt,  Lightning bolt" on the weekends.  They've always been a fringe of the RPG genre,  and have always been trying to covert RPGs to LARPs.  They don't want to play a game,  they want to live it.  These people run the gamut from insisting everyone speak in Olde English to people who will quite literally spend 8 hours a day,  every day,  pretending they are a gate guard in Oblivion (Yes,  some people did do this).  They will make every effort to sound like they are championing the "Modern RPG" without telling you what they want is a Computer LARPs,  and will very quickly take advantage of Group 1's lack of knowledge about RPG's.  There will be no more than 2 or 3 of these on any given board,  primarily because they are such a tiny niche that you'd find less than a dozen of them on a large college campus.

Easiest way to identify:  They will dismiss RPG mechanics as unnecessary and continually use the word "Roleplaying",  they will steadfastly ignore the fact that the game does not respond to their "Roleplaying" and that it's all in their heads,  they will be highly prolific posters.  They will also attack relentlessly anyone with any knowledge of RPG systems until they drive them out,  because they know the RPGer will out them as a LARPSer and they won't be able to manipulate Group 1 anymore.

Fun fact:  LARPSers share many key traits with Weeaboo's.  Primarily they have a strange vision of what their fantasy world is like.  They think a medival world is filled with people who look like celebrities.  If you're feeling sadistic,  tell them what medival hygiene was really like,  and if you want to see them mentally scarred,  explain to them what the line from 300 "I'd have her scent upon me still!" actually meant.

LOL well put a wizard hat on me and call me a LARPSER, because apparently in your mind "role-playing" of any kind is the same thing as "live action role playing"?

I guess this means you believe all those antiquated pen and paper games us old farts play are just LARPSING with funny dice?

Lighting bolt! 

Modifié par naughty99, 11 janvier 2012 - 04:54 .

[jcainhaze]

Storm Farron wrote...
Hated: The Witcher 2:

The only game I consider worse than FFVII. everything about it was just bad. bad graphics, gameplay, characters, story. I sold that piece of **** after i finished it.

Oh bullhonkey, the graphics were not bad.  They are quite excellent.

Anyway, I will reframe from harassing you for not liking The Witcher 2. 

Just remember we were planning on destroying all stupid humans.  And trash talking The Wither 2 could get you on the derp list.

I'm just sayin

[bussinrounds]

"Roleplaying" means you're just playing according to your character. Playing as a thief ? Sneak around, break in places, steal stuff.....

If the game acknowledges your actions, you're "roleplaying", If you're going around making up s**t in your head and the game doesn't acknowledge it, your LARPing.(acting)  www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Roleplaying

The only difference between virtual LARPing in Skyrim and Live Action Roleplaying, is that one is done outside.

 When i played p&p d&d back in the 80's we never actually "pretended" to be the characters (talk like them,ect..)  Your on the way to actual LARPing when you start doing that stuff.

 We just loved the dungeon crawling/adventuring, amazing content, dice rolling, complexity and enjoyed it as a game. Not saying we didn't really get into it , cause we did.

Modifié par bussinrounds, 11 janvier 2012 - 06:18 .

[jcainhaze]

So LARPing is what we did as kids back in the 80's. Basically ran around the woods with sticks sword fighting other kids. Haha back then Modern Warfare meant throwing chunks of mudrock at each other pretending they were grenades. OR....actually shooting eachother with bb guns. Not really safe but the absolute pinnacle of makebelieve warfare.

Modifié par jcainhaze, 11 janvier 2012 - 06:07 .

[naughty99]

bussinrounds wrote...

"Roleplaying" means you're just playing according to your character. Playing as a thief ? Sneak around, steal stuff.....

If the game acknowledges your actions, you're "roleplaying", If you're going around making up s**t in your head and the game doesn't acknowledge it, your LARPing.(acting)

The only difference between virtual LARPing in Skyrim and Live Action Roleplaying, is that one is done outside.

If you had a brain injury that resulted in zero imagination, you would not be able to role-play, even in the most old school turn based cRPG, or even in the most cutscene and QTE-laden interactive story action RPG.

Merely clicking dialogue wheel options in an interactive movie can be entertaining in itself, but without using at least some degree of your imagination to consider what that character wants to do, you are not role playing.

Role play requires that you have at least some sort of mental concept of a character and take actions you feel that character would take, whether participating in a pen and paper game or playing a videogame.
 
It might be very fun and entertaining to watch elaborate cinematic cut scenes featuring a compelling protagonist with some degree of interactivity, but you are only roleplaying it when you are actively considering what that character wants to do and taking those actions. This requires use of the imagination.

Even completely passive forms of entertainment such watching films or reading books involve that same part of your brain. This is simply how the human mind perceives narrative. That drive to turn the page or keep riveted to your seat in a movie theater results from taking an interest in the characters in the story, imagining what will happen next, what you would do in their shoes, etc.

In a pen and paper game, when your GM asks you, "what do you want to do?" that question is overflowing with possibilities. You can go anywhere in that world, talk to any of an infinite number of NPCs, literally do anything, or at least make the attempt. Your next step for an adventure in a PnP game could mean enlisting the aid of that NPC you just met, making a mortal enemy out of him, killing him, stealing from him, lying to him, blowing it off and going in a completely different direction, or choosing any of an infinite number of a possible actions, all depending on what you feel your character would choose to do. The narrative develops organically out of that improv between player and GM, typically with the GM frantically adjusting his pre-planned adventure on the fly to accomodate the player choices along the way.

No videogame is ever going to come close to the infinite degree of player choice in a pen and paper game, but massive open world RPGs with lots of factions, thousands of NPCs, hundreds of side quests, lots of layers of activity in the world, etc., come closer to recapturing this particular aspect than more rigidly structured interactive movie games .

Modifié par naughty99, 11 janvier 2012 - 10:50 .