24 réponses à ce sujet

[ncknck]

Thats too generally worded. The way it goes tanks get hit more because they taunt, redirecting aggro on themselves. From other party members. Who in turn are not get hit at all, regardless of dex. And thus can focus on increasing offensive stats like Str.

[ncknck]

Alistair is not a good tank at al

Well it looks like your tank builds are just not thought out. Leading to see my first post. Never invest in CON, and at the beginning of the game invest in STR exclusively, to get Alistair to 38-42 str ASAP, so he can wear heavy/massive armor. Then go straight for shield wall and taunt. His damage reduction will skyrocket, and he becomes immortal, with an odd potion here and there. Thats it. Other points go in dex.

There is a fixed drop heavy armor set in Lothering. And/or Blood Dragon Massive armor set, but thats just overkill, as well as other DLC items imho, that early in the game.

[Lemina Ausa]

I dunno if ultimate edition made the game easier - I definitely don't recall it being so easy when I played 2 years ago, but right now my alistar doesn't die all that quickly and my warrior isn't even using plate - she's wearing leather, and she seems to get by well enough on normal mode if something decides to hit me instead of alistar. Of course, being dual wield means I have a good amount of dex so that might have made a difference, but anyway, except for that time fighting *spoiler*







flemeth at the hut. She would 1 shot him with that bite move unless I had heal and group heal up + regeneration on alistar beforehand AND he was at 4/5 health when she started the bite








*spolier end*
alistar can usually handle himself fine just dropping points in strength/dex (I did 2/1 str/dex, sometimes 1/2 str/dex depending on my mood) until he can wear massive armor. Note this is in normal, hard and above might be different.

Modifié par Lemina Ausa, 09 janvier 2012 - 12:14 .

[ncknck]

Well that party just screams of mislevelling. Wynne dying?? If it obviously isnt working very well its high time to rethink the strategy. Because, you know, other people have played this game too, and they are not stupid either. For the record i have completed it on Nightmare potionless. ( ok i did drink health potions until Morrigan got her lvlup and got heal, im not a masochist). Not that is it any kind of an achievement, most MMOs are much much more difficult.

I can even tell you why the 2H has the best survivability with any dex, would be the same even if playing against humans. He simply is the lowest priority target! Noone wants to attack him, since his impact on a battlefield is minimal. Online, these guys just run around begging someone to attack them, its rather funny.

Why for example does Alistair have Treathen in Lothering, if he took threaten he was not beelining for Wall or Taunt, and soon to come armors with str reqs. And his shield bashes arent getting any better from all those con points either. It all adds up. I dont know what difficulty you are playing, but Nightmare is not so forgiving anymore. One thing is certain, tank dead = bad.

[MizarAlcor]

Some suggestions for your situation, if I may :

For Alistair or any weapon+shield tank party member you are using :
- I don't usually take Threaten early in the game. Threaten only increases threat based on your damage dealt, something which Alistair won't have plenty early on in the game especially that you will have to increase both Str for armor and skill requirements and Dex for tanking. Later on during late game, it can help especially that Alistair can start dealing some damage even as a tank.

- So first, I take Taunt right away. Taunt alone should be sufficient to withhold aggro from all your other party members' damage and healing as it is an equivalent of dealing 300 damage every application, something that is impossible for your other party members during that early stage in the game. After Taunt, you shouldn't find any enemies attacking your other party members, and obviously always lead the charge with the tank on most fights to initiate aggro.

- Now, after we took care of aggro, survivability. Start getting Shield Wall + Shield Expertise. This should get you fine for most battles except for the most difficult of boss battles during early game. Give him the heaviest armor you can find, as not only the defense bonus from heavier armors would help, but wearing heavier armors increase aggro from enemies. In my experience, just having Shield Wall + Shield Expertise upgrade and giving just the basic Heal spell (not even the Regen spell was needed) to Morrigan or Wynne got me fine through the most part of the early game without excessive potion use or tank deaths.

- Especially early game, in my experience, most of near-death situation for my tank comes not from regular damage from mobs, but more from special attacks or spells used by bosses and minibosses. For this, early game gear or stat allocation won't help you much more in that regard, and you would want to depend more on crowd control skills to prevent such deaths. By the time you face your first hardest bosses during early game (depending on your choice which main quest to do first), you should have had enough points to generally get at least two CC abilities, such as Cone of Cold or Paralysis Explosion (Glyph of Paralysis + Repulsion) or Force Field, plus any other CC abilities your melee characters may have.

- For stats, simple. No investment in Con at all. Enough Str to wear the heaviest armors and take crucial skills, then Dex all the way.


For your 2H character :
- The 2H warrior is more intended as a utility character moreso than a full damage character such as DW warrior, much like the archer, dex rogues, and CC mages, especially with its knockdown immunity with Indomitable sustain and various knockdowns. For example, in fights such as dragon bosses where your rogues and DW warriors will get knocked down a lot, my 2H party member will tend to outperform the DW warrior or rogue in damage due to knockdown immunity, even though the DW warrior and rogue are supposed to deal more damage on paper.

- IMHO, there is no need to invest on dex for the 2h warrior. On a specific fight that you mentioned i.e. a Revenant, even on the earliest couple of Revenants in the early game, a single pull will not instantly kill even my mage, which has zero investment in con or dex. After a pull, the Revenant will usually turn towards the mage and may then finish that mage, this is why I usually reserve a Taunt that will usually turn the Revenant back to Alistair. Not to mention, the first Revenant I faced was the one located inside a larger area with quite a lot of obstacles (is it a spoiler to post a location of a sidequest boss such as a Revenant?) meaning that : when pulled my mage would get stuck at an obstacle rather than in direct melee range of the Revenant, and also that the Revenant has to dance around the obstacles trying to reach my mage in melee giving her time to get up and flee and kite the Revenant.

- Some people prefer to beeline for 2H sweep right away with their 2H warriors, I myself prefer to get Indomitable first for the priceless knockdown and stun immunity it gives, and especially seeing that most of the harder big boss battles will have you deal with some sort of knockdowns and stuns, often times wiping your character during the knockdown or stun period if not prevented.

- I myself don't find any need to invest in much willpower at all. The sustains I will use for most part of early-mid part of the game are merely Indomitable and probably Precise Striking, leaving enough willpower for some skills even in early game. I don't use Berserk until I have enough points to get the Constraint passive to reduce the hefty stamina drain, and also I don't use Powerful Swings until I get end-tier weapons, both won't happen during early game.

- Also unless you really need it or during late game, refrain from using massive armor on your DPS 2H warrior as the fatigue penalty will penalize your stamina very significantly and as I mentioned earlier, Taunt was enough for my tank to keep all aggro on him in early game.

[ncknck]

i dont think on normal it matters. Just change strategy for more tankage. and level whatever is cool. But tankage is an instrumental strategy in DA, dont think it can be changed. Thats how it works, and tbh its better than in previous Bioware games.


As for 2H warrior.. well, most, if not all, classes in DA are MMO rip-offs. Which is a good thing, it adds proven depth, and strategy. Whats not so good is that application field in DA is not at all the same. Take the archer, It is a PvP character. He two-shots mages. 1st stun shot, 2nd kill shot. But in DA there are no dangerous mages. It is also a boss killer (only suicidal daggers approach an MMO boss) but in DA, bosses are weaklings, and daggers make short work with them. So very little of his utility is present in the game. Same with 2H. Its a fun character with many application fields, none of which are present in DA. So he simply cant do anything he was designed in the first place. ( Like Arena, mass levelling, general bullsh*tery, boss killing, pvp, scout, etc)

[MizarAlcor]

As for the min-maxing attribute limiting versatility, well, that's the gist of min-maxing : you would pick the single most optimum attribute distribution to achieve the best result. A min-maxed character attribute distribution for ANY build is not going to provide any freedom to build the character. For example :
- A min-maxed weapon and shield warrior for tanking is always going to be built with just enough str to wear top armor and skill requirements, rest in dex. A DPS one is only going to put enough dex to take all weapon and shield talents, rest in str. One build for each.
- A min-maxed DW warrior, ones using DW daggers would just put enough str to wear top armor, while ones using DW full weapons will just put 30 or 36 dex then rest in str. One build for each.

Now, I am not saying that min-maxing is bad, in fact you need flexibility for certain situations such as solo run where you would be doing the work of the whole party (need to DPS, need to survive, need to CC) by yourself, the player character only. In this case, min-maxing is not the best idea, and utility takes priority over pure dps or pure tanking. This is also why during warrior solo runs, the Reaver specialization which is more utility-based compared to the other 3 warrior specs, would be more appealing while it is not a very popular pick for warriors played in the full group with other party members. You also may need to add some dex for any warrior specs during solo runs to survive, as probably more willpower than non-solo runs to compensate for needing to always have some emergency CC available, and so on.

Another example, a min-maxed melee rogue would spec cun as in ideal condition it will always deal more damage than a dex dagger rogue. That min-maxed cun rogue would work very well in a party because he doesn't have to take damage as there is another member that will tank for him and another that will heal him if he aggros. Cun rogues also depend more on backstabs than dex rogue, something that is easy to achieve in a party with a tank that will face the enemy away from him, exposing their backs for him to backstab. That same min-maxed rogue however, is going to have more of a hellish time in a solo run than a dex rogue however, because now he will have to take all that incoming damage himself, and he can't rely on backstabs as much because all enemies will face towards him most of the time. Basically what I'm saying is, min-maxing and versatility /flexibility are alwyas on the opposing side of the spectrum, can't have both for any characters, not just 2h warriors. A min-maxed character do best on one thing and one thing alone, and that's why he will need other party members. A non min-maxed character is not going to perform at a single task better than a min-maxed one, but he can do several things at once and not depend on other party members.

You mentioned yourself that the damage for a dex-heavy 2H is not great but survivability is decent. Same can be said for weapon and shield.
A tanking (just enough str, rest dex) is only going to have meager damage from the four weapon and shield attacks as they draws from str. Your mainhand weapon is only going to do decent damage when using daggers, which draw half of its damage from dex unlike other 1H weapons.
A full-str DPS weapon and shield is going to have quite good damage from the shield attacks and also from the 1H mainhand weapon, but then it will have a rather meager defense. It will also never outdamage a full-str DW or 2H. It can even still be stunned during fights, while a 2H using Indomitable will keep DPSing. Speaking about Indomitable, it is one of those talents where you may not see its benefit in every fight, but when you do, it may outperform other DPSers due to knockdown/stun immunity as some of the harder boss battles in the game usually have some sort of knockdowns and/or stuns, removing significant DPS from any melee without knockdown/stun immunity or even wiping the whole party in some cases.

Modifié par MizarAlcor, 12 janvier 2012 - 06:24 .

[Lemina Ausa]

Nizaris1 wrote...

it is because DA:O is still using old game mechanic--->tank, dps, nuker, hybrid, so the player is forced to min-max the attribute

Err, not sure what you're trying to say, but min-maxing in any game will always exist, old system or new system, as long as they have stats you can add. Even a story heavy rpg like planescape: torment that allows you to evade almost all combat has min/maxing in the form of getting the most out of conversations and avoiding combat.

Even if they didn't have stats, you can still min/max equipement and other areas. As long as its a game, there is always a way to maximize effeciency.

[MizarAlcor]

Technically a player is not forced to min-max. This may be a subjective comment, but to be honest the game isn't that difficult, especially if compared against all the older Bioware Infinity Engine games (Baldur's Gate series, Icewind Dales, Planescape) to merit the need of using all min-maxed party members for the encounters. You would be able to beat the game fine with characters that are not min-maxed even on hard difficulty (if you are familiar with PCRPG before) or normal (if you are new to the PCRPG genre). Otherwise, if a player needs to use perfect min-maxed characters just to beat the game normally, there won't be anyone capable of doing solo runs and so on.

And by the Fade, I may not be able to talk into much details due to being a no spoiler forum section, but assuming we're talking about Broken Circle Fade, if at all, is the part of the game where min-maxing is needed the least imho. The forms attained within allows you to solve obstacles no matter what character class you are. I did it first time with a mage character and due to stat allocation of a mage, coupled with the way I didn't use my mage spells and only depend on the forms'  spells, makes it the worst possible choice of character to solve the whole Fade, yet I finished it without need of excessive numbers of reloads.

Modifié par MizarAlcor, 14 janvier 2012 - 04:30 .

[Lemina Ausa]

Nizaris1 wrote...


That is not entirely true, you see Diablo 1 and 2 (it is an old game), the player need all stats, no min max, because if min max the character will become a problem. If you are playing Sorceress, you need mana and magic, you need armor and health for survival. Sorcerer also can wear armor and going melee with Enchant, Frost Nova, Frost Armor and so on.You also need dexterity to evade enemy attacks.the same goes if you are playing Paladin, you also need mana and some magic, so eventually you will invest in all stats. Even Barbarian need more mana and mana regen to activate his special skill.

diablo also give a wide variety of armors, weapons, gears, items for the player to choose. The player have freedom to customize their character. Unlike in DA:O in which "you must wear this or that to get this or that attribute and effect" in min maxing. For example, Arcane Warrior must have certain stats, armor, weapon and gear (in which mostly expensive) to become the most succesful character, or he/she is broken.

You CAN min/max in diablo. Just because that game lets you do anything doesn't mean there isn't an effecient way to go about doing a particular role. You can min max as a nuker as a sorcerer by having large amounts of magic and enough strength to wear certain armors, or if you'd prefer to go melee sorcerer, min max that way. Then you can min/max by chosing specific gear that boost the attributes you desire, and throw away everything else. I most definately min/maxed in diablo 1 and 2 back when I played.

Like I said, any kind of rpg will have some form of min/maxing, no matter what. Its unavoidable. If you're saying some rpgs don't require you to min/max to be effective but dragon age does, then yes, I agree with that - although you can just knock the difficultly down to easy, easy mode should be possible even if you don't add stats optimally.

Modifié par Lemina Ausa, 15 janvier 2012 - 10:43 .

[Lemina Ausa]

I think we have different definitions on what min/maxing is. You most definitely can min/max in diablo 1 and 2 in solo play, you'll just have to maximize in the way for solo play. My definition of min/maxing is maximizing efficiency, not necessarily pumping everything into a stat, but adding enough to less desirable stats to satisfy requirements and maxing out the ones you want. There is no tank or healer in diablo, everyone just does damage, are we talking about the same game? If we're talking about solo, a sorceress in D2, for instance, can just dump a heap of points into frozen orb, some token lightning spells like static field and some others, and do perfectly fine just teleporting away from danger, throwing orb to slow and some other spells. And the fact that you have mercs in D2 makes it even easier to solo. My point is, any kind of game with stats will have an optimal, most effecient route to go, and this is unavoidable.

But I think we've strayed far enough from the topic and its not even dragon age related anymore, so I'll just leave it as this.

[MizarAlcor]

This is really getting further and further out of topic. I also found some of your posts conflicting with each other. I'll try to outline most of the issues, and hopefully it wil clear things up :

- With Diablo, even in single player, you do min-max to a certain extent, in the form of skill choices. Yes, you can add talent points in various different skills without focusing on any of them, but would you ever be as effective as a player who focuses on select few of skills and boosts them up? One example, I remembered fondly when synergy mechanics was introduced, it made the popular and flexible tri-element sorc build obsolete, because the flexibility offered by tri-element is just not enough to compensate for the overwhelming damage advantage gained by following skill synergies. Tons of other examples with all different classes.

- You mentioned that Diablo gives tons of gear to choose, while DAO needs certain gear to shine. Well, in Diablo there are only select few of gears prized above the others, yes? Some gears with multiple slots are even preferred over the game's designated class-specific armors for example. Isn't that min-maxing?

With DA, you do NOT need to use the best gears to complete the game even on hard. I finished hard difficulty WITHOUT buying even a single gear from the merchant, because I wanted to import my character into DA:A with as much gold as possible. Also, I didn't have the privilege of even a single overpowered DLC items, as I only owned the basic game at that time, not even Stone Prisoner DLC btw, as the copy I had was a used copy.

You mentioned Arcane Warrior as an example even. Hell, if at all, Arcane Warrior is the character subclass that depends the LEAST on gear. From the 2 Arcane Warrior sustains alone, without any single gear, you get a whopping 25% dodge, 75 mental and physical resist, a plethora of armor, defense, attack bonuses, and more importantly, 75% (!!!) spell resists, that's before any gear and other sustains you have on ... If at all, it is less dependent on expensive gear than regular tanks. Even your best weapon and shield are both free from drop!

- You also mentioned that in diablo multiplayer (and also if I may add, in PVP, good luck beating a hammerdin with any kinds of hybrid paladin build, much less a PVE build) you are expected to min-max. Well, this corresponds well to what I said earlier on my post way above that it is the same thing in DA , i.e. :
-- You do not need to min-max at all to beat DA even in hard difficulty, the game is beatable enough without min-maxing gears or stats.
-- I mentioned again, just like in any other RPG including Diablo or any PCRPG really especially MMORPG, if you want to group up with other party members, min-maxing is going to give you a better performance because in a group it is better for each member to do one thing and one thing alone as optimum as possible. When playing solo, then you will want to consider all stats too because you would want to fill all roles in a single character. This applies to any RPG, Diablo, DA, MMORPG ever since Everquest, WoW, SWTOR etc etc.

In DA, during solo runs, a rogue for example, would prefer dex build over cun build because of all the defense bonus it offers, something that is crucial for solo runs as you're taking the damage and won't be backstabbing most of the time. In party runs, a more min-maxed cun rogue will deal more damage and more backstabs than a dex rogue. It is also more squishy, but in a party why bother about incoming damage, most of them should be taken by your tank anyways. Backstabs which favor cun over dex is also much easier to do in a party anyways with enemies exposing their backs to your rogue. This is the same with any other classes really.

Again, other DA examples, why does a lot of people diss Reaver spec as the weakest among all Warrior specs? Because Reaver offers utility, it has some healing, it has some damage, it has some CC. Why is it suboptimal during party play? Because it tries to offer all things but the other 3 specs offer it better. Why is it more appealing of an option during solo play? Because it offers everything in one package, something that's crucial in solo play.

Heck, to illustrate your point, by using warriors or rogues at all in DA, you are straying away from min-maxing. No party combo beats the effectiveness of a spell-immune tank + 3 mages.

I hope this clears up your conflicting arguments. And let's not delve into other genre such as RTS and MOBA, they have their own mechanics and does not relate at all to RPG min-maxing.

Modifié par MizarAlcor, 16 janvier 2012 - 04:46 .

[ncknck]

I cant believe what im reading here. Especially bits about Diablo2, and that it had no minmaxing.

But i agree, a well-build smiter tank with lots of invested mana points was critical for every party seeking fast and easy xp. DA:O totally copied that.

That is all.